Apple Threatens to Terminate Epic Games' Developer Accounts on August 28

[The Phazer]

So ask yourself: Why does Netflix not have this problem? They don't pay Apple a penny. Because they read the contract, decided not to violate it, and figured out how to get 100% of their revenue. While staying within the contract, and Apple doesn't mind.

Apple applies different rules to gaming apps and subscription video apps (the obviously made up a few months ago "reader" differentiation), and I can assure you, Netflix do have a problem with Apple's policy which is one of the reasons Netflix increasingly doesn't support new Apple initiatives.

It is very likely Netflix will join this suit if it thinks it gains enough momentum Apple won't be able to punish everyone.

 

[bayelrey80]

Unbelievably juvenile and petty on Apple's party.

They're literally setting developer relationships on fire out of spite.

It's time to abandon their platforms.

Sike. Epic chose to violate terms they agreed to, leveraged their own customers and spun up a media campaign while painting themselves as the victim. They are using the “for the good of the people” stance to just keep all the money for themselves and use Apple’s marketplace for free. They aren’t taking this fight to Sony, Nintendo, Microsoft or Google are they?

 

[The Phazer]

Sike. Epic chose to violate terms they agreed to, leveraged their own customers and spun up a media campaign while painting themselves as the victim. They are using the “for the good of the people” stance to just keep all the money for themselves and use Apple’s marketplace for free. They aren’t taking this fight to Sony, Nintendo, Microsoft or Google are they?

They literally are taking this fight to Google (same case filed against Google), and one suspects they will do to Sony, Nintendo and Microsoft when legal precedent is set with the phone cases.

It is amazing how Apple's enthusiastic cheerleaders are willing to put flat out false information out there to justify something as entirely evil as the App Store has always been.
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You want Apple to give Epic special treatment? Because Apple has banned other developers for doing the same thing.

Apple haven't revoked access to developer tools for developers doing the same thing.

 

[Manzanito]

Games are never an investment, regardless of the platform.
If you want to invest in something, then invest in a good book or training course that will actually teach you something valuable. They sell training courses on Udemy for the same and lower prices than many games sell for, and those courses can actually provide knowledge for a successfull career and life.

As much as I agree with what you said, the point the other poster made still stands. Don’t buy your games from apple if you don’t want to loose them.

 

[bayelrey80]

If Apple wins, you will see how quickly unattractive their eco system will become.

Anyway, devs will slowly move away, and more importantly, kids (Apples future customers) will always remember what a bad taste Apple left in their mouth, this will hit Apple badly.

With this move, Apple just ordered a parking lot beside Palm, Nokia, Motorola, Siemens, WinCE Devices...
But this won't care the Apple CEOs much, because they made their millions already with their sheeps.

Why are you here? Regardless of how you feel about Apple. Epic isn’t the “good guy” here. They willfully broke the terms of the their contract, end of story. The 1984 video, sneaking a payment system onto iOS, not taking up this fight with Nintendo/Sony/Google, being a hypocrite and not letting anyone open a store on THEIR own platform 😂. They could have tried to renegotiate the 30%, allowed users to purchase V-bucks on a website and then redeemed in game, there’s plenty of different ways they could’ve handled this.

 

[Manzanito]

Revise them how exactly? Make in-app purchases exempt from the tax? Now everyone and their grandma is releasing free apps with in-app upgrades, not to mention that every app uses a separate billing system. Cut the fee out completely? Apple is rich, but I am not sure they are that rich long-term — keeping all that infrastructure and the army of support engineers is not exactly free, it likely costs them billions per year to operate. Maybe they can reduce the fee to something more palatable, say, 10%? Sounds more reasonable right? Only now Epic is saying "oh, we are not paying the 10% either".

Also, allow other entities to set up separate App Stores? As a small-time developer, I am strongly opposed to this. I want my app to be discoverable for all users, not be locked behind one stores of many.

In the end, how would the customer benefit from all this? Epic says that they are fighting for freedom and customer rights, but just look at the mess Epic is doing with their own games store... paying off developers to sign exclusive deals and blocking games from being distributed on other platforms. Imagine if Apple were to forbid devs to offer Android versions of their iOS apps!



People were claiming this about OS X five years ago...

It’s up to apple to figure out how to do it, but a lot of developers seem to think they are charged more than they should. Maybe lower the cut. Both sides have much to loose if this ends up badly.

Of course Epic is not fighting for freedom, Epic is fighting for Epic, just like everyone is out for theirs. It’s just that in this case Epic’s interests apparently align with many others.

As for separate app stores, that may be what happens if apple lets this thing get out of control in the precise moment they are under scrutiny.

 

[The Phazer]

Why are you here? Regardless of how you feel about Apple. Epic isn’t the “good guy” here. They willfully broke the terms of the their contract, end of story. The 1984 video, sneaking a payment system onto iOS, not taking up this fight with Nintendo/Sony/Google, being a hypocrite and not letting anyone open a store on THEIR own platform 😂. They could have tried to renegotiate the 30%, allowed users to purchase V-bucks on a website and then redeemed in game, there’s plenty of different ways they could’ve handled this.

Anyone is the good guy if they attack the notion of a central authority signing all code on consumer devices, as that concept is inevitably used for evil.

I note you still keep lying about Epic not serving this suit against Google.

 

[bayelrey80]

They literally are taking this fight to Google (same case filed against Google), and one suspects they will do to Sony, Nintendo and Microsoft when legal precedent is set with the phone cases.

It is amazing how Apple's enthusiastic cheerleaders are willing to put flat out false information out there to justify something as entirely evil as the App Store has always been.
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Apple haven't revoked access to developer tools for developers doing the same thing.

> It is amazing how Apple's enthusiastic cheerleaders are willing to put flat out false information out there to justify something as entirely evil as the App Store has always been.

Take a deep breath, stick to the facts: Does Epic allow a developer to open a store on their platform and bypass paying them a cut. You can’t say “put flat out false information” and then say “one suspects” 😂.

Take another deep breath, stick to the facts: Did Epic willfully violate the terms of their contract with Apple?

You sound 50% anti-Apple, 50% spectacle. Explain to all of us how *evil* the App Store is. Surely you’re lumping Google/Sony/Nintendo respective stores into that statement? How about Epic’s store?

 

[Cublah09]

Game developer here, I use Unreal Engine on MacOS. If Apple blocked Epic from developer tools and Epic are unable to release Unreal Engine 5 on Mac I will be forced to stop using Apple entirely and will ditch my Mac, iPhone, iPad, Apple Watch, AirPods Pro, etc for alternatives. I am sure a lot of other developers will end up doing the same thing. This comes at a critical time as well. Good thing I didn't buy a new MacBook Pro yet!

Also how come apple doesn't charge Amazon any fees and let's them use their own payment system but doesn't let Epic use theirs? This is extremely anticompetitive.

When you say Amazon uses their own payments system, they use it allow people to buy real world items which Apple isn’t able to take 30% of, Epic are buying virtual items that can only be used in the game.

 

[mrcloaked]

That's not relevant.

 

[twinlight]

I believe Apple is in the right here considering their terms of service but I can’t understand how they can make the case that they should get 30% of all sales through their system.

Developers paying for a developer account and for hosting, services and the tools you get is obviously fair. Apple taking 30% from Netflix or Spotify for nothing else than the ability to take it is wierd..

I sure don’t want other app stores in iOS (or Google play for that matter) and believe Apple should lower their cut somewhat. Going all out and allowing third party payment options for purchases, subscriptions and the likes isn’t a good solution. They would increase their developer accounts quite alot then I guess to recoup the losses.

 

[TiggrToo]

OK that’s not much of a defense. And Apple didn’t make a deal with Netflix they created a brand new app category just so Netflix wouldn’t leave the platform. Epic can’t use this category because it doesn’t apply to games.

Yeah, that's called making a deal. 🙄

 

[auvxza]

When you say Amazon uses their own payments system, they use it allow people to buy real world items which Apple isn’t able to take 30% of, Epic are buying virtual items that can only be used in the game.

What's the difference between a physical and digital piece of clothing? If you are spending your life in a virtual space doesn't that make it real? People put time and effort into creating physical and digital clothing. Who is to say what is more valuable or what is considered 'real'. I think that Apple is being extremely anti competitive here.

 

[leman]

It’s up to apple to figure out how to do it, but a lot of developers seem to think they are charged more than they should. Maybe lower the cut. Both sides have much to loose if this ends up badly.

I don't think that lowering the cut will fix the fundamental issue. Don't get me wrong, I am not arguing that 30% is "ok". It does seem to be the standard fee for this kind of stuff, but I agree that it's on the high side. I just don't think that lowering the fee will prevent these kind of situations. No matter how low the fee is, Epic could still say that they don't want to pay it.

What would help is a legislation that would fix the upper level of such distribution fees and at the same time cement their status in the law, to protect all parties.

Anyone is the good guy if they attack the notion of a central authority signing all code on consumer devices, as that concept is inevitably used for evil.

I note you still keep lying about Epic not serving this suit against Google.

What is the evil here? I really don't see how Apple is supposed to be abusing their position here. I understand that Epic is not happy with their arrangement, but at the same time... putting covert backdoors in their apps as a planned provocation, manipulating children and fearmongering... is that really the approach a "good guy" would use?

Epic did launch the lawsuit agains Google, but all of their PR is targeting Apple. Also, Epic is blatantly lying about being unable to support Unreal Engine on Apple platforms.

We should all strive for these markets to be better regulated, safer and fairer, both for the users and for the developers. But Epic is not interested in that. Epic just wants to grab more money. All the justice talk by Sweeney is just PR sham — Epic has absolutely no scruples to use underhand fraudulent tactics to achieve their means. They lie, they blackmail, they manipulate, bribe and isolate. Don't praise them as some sort of justice champions.

I can just hope that these scandals will change the situation for the better. It really shows how fragile the current system is. And in the end it is the customer who suffers the most.

 

[playtech1]

I don't think Apple is helping itself strategically by cutting off Epic's ability to push out Unreal Engine updates. If anything it highlights the power Apple has to kill an App unilaterally.

If Apple wants to come out the winner in this fight it's going to need to show how it's bending over backwards to be a help not a hindrance to third parties.

I don't really see much of a safe way out of this other than for Apple to cut its % take and allow a wider range of 3rd party apps and app-stores. I think it may also need to become less of a gatekeeper over who can develop. The App Store would still be dominant as it will come pre-installed and has massive inertia, but over the longer term it would need to compete on price and for developers - much like Steam and the Epic Games Store.

These changes would no doubt hit Apple's profitability, but a bit of competition in terms of App stores might end up doing it some good and could broaden the range of apps on iOS which helps the hardware sales. Microsoft does just fine with Windows as an open platform and so does Apple with the Mac! The Mac App Store generates revenue despite being only one of several storefronts.

Let's be clear - in the medium term this might end up with something major, like the DoJ forcing Apple Services to be split off from the hardware division. The 90s Microsoft analogy seems strong. It's high stakes stuff.

 

[leman]

It is amazing how Apple's enthusiastic cheerleaders are willing to put flat out false information out there to justify something as entirely evil as the App Store has always been.

Arguably the most "evil" such entity currently on the market is Epic Game store, since it forbids many of it's developers to serve their games on any other platform.

Apple haven't revoked access to developer tools for developers doing the same thing.

Apple developer tools are free. Anyone can access and use them. They cannot revoke access. The developer account is for selling apps, not for accessing the developer tools.

 

[leman]

I don't think Apple is helping itself strategically by cutting off Epic's ability to push out Unreal Engine updates. If anything it highlights the power Apple has to kill an App unilaterally.

Apple is not doing anything like that. Epic is lying and people who don't understand how Apple developer tools work repeat these lies.

Appel developer tools are free. Anyone can download them and use them to develop iOS, macOS, etc. apps. You don't need any special account for that. You only need an account if you want to sign your app and/or sell it on the App Store. That's it. The other thing a dev account gives you is access to pre-release software and support. And even if Epic needs access to these things, it's employees can always get individual accounts. The only thing for which they need the official "Epic dev account" is to sell Fortnite and similar games.

Unreal Engine is not an app. It is a library. Epic does not need to sign it and it does not use App Store to distribute it. Epic licenses the library to developers who then integrate them into their games and apps. Apple does not have any influence on which libraries you use. No matter whether their developer account gets banned, it has absolutely no influence on their ability to develop and test Unreal Engine. They can still get Xcode (a free software), Apple dev tools (free software), they get access to documentation (openly accessible), they can set up built servers and deploy to local iOS machines for testing. They can also get local dev accounts if they want to deploy to multiple test machines etc.

To sum it up: whether Epic has an official dev account or not has zero impact on their ability to develop or ship the Unreal Engine. If Epic stops updating the Unreal Engine, it would be 100% their decision. Epic is holding developers hostage and uses their privileged position to spread fear in order to gain advantage. Just one example of the unethical tactics Epic is using. Other being manipulating children who are addicted to Fortnite or paying off game developers to prevent them from publishing their games on other game platforms.

 

[bayelrey80]

Anyone is the good guy if they attack the notion of a central authority signing all code on consumer devices, as that concept is inevitably used for evil.

I note you still keep lying about Epic not serving this suit against Google.

Where’s the 1984 Google video? Where’s the ad of a little green Android oppressing beloved Fornite characters? Or did we miss that? Where’s the Google PR smear campaign Epic is running? Where’s the coalition of angry developers protesting about the unfair Google PlayStore?

Tim Sweeney spoke **highly** about Microsoft’s openness and contract terms for PC but failed to mention the 30% cut Microsoft takes for the Xbox store.

You gotta stop with the “evil” talk. Does Epic allow developers to open their own stores on their platform? Don’t worry, I’ll wait. Still waiting on you to explain how the App Store is evil...

Epic intentionally broke the terms of their contract then acted surprised they got banned but popped up with a lawsuit and video hours later. All after trying to weasel their launcher on an OS to target kids and sell them game skins and trinkets around the safeguards iOS and the App Store provides. But Epic is the good guy and App Store is evil 😂

 

[borgein]

This might be the dumbest, most irrelevant non-post here. What is all this recent drama in the news about? Games. What are people then subsequently going to be discussing in response? Yeah, games. Go virtue signal elsewhere, we all know how to kick ass at life without your advice, thanks. Careful not to let anyone see you watch any TV shows or listen to any music or read any magazines that might be seen as anything remotely below high-intellectual stature, you noble stallion.

Blahblah. All I was doing was saying that games are not an investment. I've purchased A LOT of games myself, on many platforms, for 20+ years. Do I consider them as investments? Heck no. It's like tossing money out the window for some temporary entertainment, that's all. If you wanna call that an investment, then sure, do that. But you sure as heck have misunderstood what the word "investment" actually means then. So here, let me provide a dictionary description for you:

Investment:
The action or process of investing money for profit.
"a debate over private investment in road-building"

 

[mrcloaked]

They all have problems.

 

[bayelrey80]

How about they’re all evil and have the ballsack to admit Apple is included in that?

Apple is a publicly traded company. Aren’t they all inherently evil to some degree?

How about let’s not play games, Epic is full of ****.

 

[playtech1]

Appel developer tools are free. Anyone can download them and use them to develop iOS, macOS, etc. apps. You don't need any special account for that. You only need an account if you want to sign your app and/or sell it on the App Store. That's it. The other thing a dev account gives you is access to pre-release software and support. And even if Epic needs access to these things, it's employees can always get individual accounts. The only thing for which they need the official "Epic dev account" is to see Fortnite and similar games.

The letter from Apple quoted in the news story says Epic is getting cut off from development tools. Epic employees downloading software will still be doing it on behalf of their employer and so risk getting cut off too. I have no idea whether Epic needs Xcode to update Unreal for iOS, but it seems logical that it would.

But really my point is that Apple's letter is highlighting that it is a gate keeper to the App Store and is willing to get rough with someone who is challenging it. Fair or not, by flexing those muscles it is highlighting its power over developers when I think it needs to be seen as taking the high road, even with those it doesn't much like.

 

[leman]

How about they’re all evil and have the ballsack to admit Apple is included in that?

I do not see Apple's actions or position on this as evil. Greedy, most likely. Headstrong, most certainly. But evil? The only thing one can blame Apple for is wanting a cut from any transition that goes through their platform. This is certainly a topic for controversy and discussion, and I think these policies should be scrutinized to improve the experience and safety for everyone.

Epic on the other head... calculated, provocative contract breach using underhanded methods, simultaneously launched targeted emotionally laden smear campaign, using customers (underage gamers and independent game developers) as a collateral... yes, definitely evil. You want to fight your fights, fight them. Don't drag people who trusted you into that. Epic is literally putting "Apple is bad!" signs around children's necks and parading them around, while telling other kids of children that "Big bad Apple will come along and take the candy away from our cupboard".

 

[mrcloaked]

Let's keep it positive.

 

[leman]

The letter from Apple quoted in the news story says Epic is getting cut off from development tools. Epic employees downloading software will still be doing it on behalf of their employer and so risk getting cut off too. I have no idea whether Epic needs Xcode to update Unreal for iOS, but it seems logical that it would.

I have not seen any letter. What I have seen in the media are claims made by Epic.

Here is the Xcode T&C, you are welcome to look inside and see whether Apple reserves any rights to cut you off from the tools. They cannot prevent you from using their SDK and dev tools as long as you agree to their terms. And the terms do not include "you can't use it if we banned you previously"

https://www.apple.com/legal/sla/docs/xcode.pdf

But really my point is that Apple's letter is highlighting that it is a gate keeper to the App Store and is willing to get rough with someone who is challenging it. Fair or not, by flexing those muscles it is highlighting its power over developers when I think it needs to be seen as taking the high road, even with those it doesn't much like.

I agree with you that we need legislations to control it. The basic template for the game rules has to be legally enforceable. Usually one would leave these things to corporations, but here we are dealing with an area that directly impacts millions and millions of people. This has to be regulated.