Apple Threatens to Terminate Epic Games' Developer Accounts on August 28

[Lone Deranger]

Some might point out that consoles do the same thing, but Epic brings up a good point about how phones can be "general computing devices"

But then if phones are ruled to be "general computing devices", the word 'general' stands at odds with the word 'monopoly'. Especially since iPhones are in the minority. Even more so if you add in the rest of the 'computing devices' like desktop computers.

 

[playtech1]

I have not seen any letter. What I have seen in the media are claims made by Epic.

It's page 51 here: https://cdn2.unrealengine.com/epic-v-apple-8-17-20-768927327.pdf

(and quoted in the article to which this is the comment thread.)

 

[Ethosik]

I think you got that wrong.

No I didn't. Did you read the documents?

Apple Threatens to Terminate Epic Games' Developer Accounts on August 28

Please, I wish people would actually read the legal documents on this Microsoft VS US case. It wasn't just because they are used in 90% of the computers, or that they bundled IE. The reason why it boiled over was because Microsoft approached Netscape to try to prevent them from creating...

forums.macrumors.com

Key points: Microsoft tried to prevent Netscape from being both developed and distributed.

 

[Rogifan]

Of course they want a special deal. Why would epic care what any other developer gets? Epic wants the right to charge its own 30% rent on apps sold through its own App Store on a platform it didn’t create and doesn’t need to maintain.

Where does Epic say they want something nobody else could get?

 

[Lone Deranger]

This is the real issue here. Apple just willingly chose to treat thousands of UE developers (such as myself) as collateral damage in their legal fight to continue charging 20-25% more than payment processing costs for IAP and maintain their precious services revenue.

They (Epic) drew first blood... not Apple. Epic is still invited to the negotiation table. They (so far) have chosen the war path instead, despite knowing the consequences. Epic is the one that's gambling with your livelihood.

 

[The Phazer]

Apple is not doing anything like that. Epic is lying and people who don't understand how Apple developer tools work repeat these lies.

Appel developer tools are free. Anyone can download them and use them to develop iOS, macOS, etc. apps. You don't need any special account for that. You only need an account if you want to sign your app and/or sell it on the App Store. That's it. The other thing a dev account gives you is access to pre-release software and support. And even if Epic needs access to these things, it's employees can always get individual accounts. The only thing for which they need the official "Epic dev account" is to sell Fortnite and similar games.

Unreal Engine is not an app. It is a library. Epic does not need to sign it and it does not use App Store to distribute it. Epic licenses the library to developers who then integrate them into their games and apps. Apple does not have any influence on which libraries you use. No matter whether their developer account gets banned, it has absolutely no influence on their ability to develop and test Unreal Engine. They can still get Xcode (a free software), Apple dev tools (free software), they get access to documentation (openly accessible), they can set up built servers and deploy to local iOS machines for testing. They can also get local dev accounts if they want to deploy to multiple test machines etc.

To sum it up: whether Epic has an official dev account or not has zero impact on their ability to develop or ship the Unreal Engine. If Epic stops updating the Unreal Engine, it would be 100% their decision. Epic is holding developers hostage and uses their privileged position to spread fear in order to gain advantage. Just one example of the unethical tactics Epic is using. Other being manipulating children who are addicted to Fortnite or paying off game developers to prevent them from publishing their games on other game platforms.

Apple will not be able to notarise the Unreal engine toolset to run on MacOS according to the terms in the Apple letter.

In addition, the letter seems to suggest that the license to use Apple's developer documentation will be revoked. You falsely suggest that the Apple Dev Tools are free software - they are not, they're proprietary software. They're not charged for, but they're still licensed and you need to have a valid license to use them, which requires you to be a signatory to the terms of the Apple Developer Agreement. If Apple withdraws your access to the Apple Developer Agreement you cannot compile fully native software for MacOS.

It's not technically enforced, but it is the legal reality.

Again, more false information from you.

 

[mrcloaked]

This issue is big.

 

[The Phazer]

Arguably the most "evil" such entity currently on the market is Epic Game store, since it forbids many of it's developers to serve their games on any other platform.

Complete nonsense. Epic doesn't "forbid" developers to serve their games. They offer money and developers can take it to make their title exclusive. That doesn't prevent other developers from releasing software.

Epic's app store doesn't stop the citizens of Hong Kong from tracking the police of an authoritarian government from trying to kill them. Apple's control of iOS does.

Epic's app store doesn't stop kink, queer and other sexual minority interests from launching software on the hardware platforms Epic runs on. Apple's control of iOS does.

Epic's app store doesn't host an app to allow men to prohibit the free movement and association of women in Saudi Arabia, and prohibit the hardware from running anything to attack such software. Apple's control of iOS does.

Apple developer tools are free. Anyone can access and use them. They cannot revoke access. The developer account is for selling apps, not for accessing the developer tools.

They're not free, they're proprietary. Apple absolutely can revoke access by cancelling the licensing agreement.

 

[The Phazer]

Don’t be obtuse. Where’s the 1984 Google video? Where’s the ad of a little green Android oppressing beloved Fornite characters? Or did we miss that? Where’s the Google PR smear campaign Epic is running? Where’s the coalition of angry developers protesting about the unfair Google PlayStore?

Lol, so you admit you completely falsified the statement that Epic weren't suing Google then? Epic doesn't need to take the same level of action against Google because Epic wants to be able to launch a competing app store, and notably they already have launched an alternating app store on Android.

Tim Sweeney spoke **highly** about Microsoft’s openness and contract terms for PC but failed to mention the 30% cut Microsoft takes for the Xbox store.

You're kidding right? All Tim Sweeney has spoken about for five years is about how the Microsoft store is a threat to open computing on Twitter. He literally did more to prohibit Microsoft's attempts to close Windows into an iOS like platform than anyone else on Earth.

You gotta stop with the “evil” talk. Does Epic allow developers to open their own stores on their platform? Don’t worry, I’ll wait.

Epic doesn't own a hardware platform. If they do and prohibit the installation of other sources of software on it you'll have a point. You don't.

Still waiting on you to explain how the App Store is evil...

The app store is evil because Apple applies evil editorial censorship in it attacking sexual minorities and dissidents from authoritarian governments.

 

[Lone Deranger]

No they didn't, this issue is bigger than Epic. Things really started snowballing with xCloud, and now the stakes are essentially the AAA gaming industry vs. Apple right now, and hopefully even beyond that. This concerns the better half of the iOS developer community that has been grumbling for a decade about these restrictive policies.

The better half? You have figures on that?

 

[mrcloaked]

I'd like some sources.

 

[borgein]

No they didn't, this issue is bigger than Epic. Things really started snowballing with xCloud, and now the stakes are essentially the AAA gaming industry vs. Apple right now, and hopefully even beyond that. This concerns the better half of the iOS developer community that has been grumbling for a decade about these restrictive policies.

Yet Microsoft didn't start acting like complete ****s like Epic did, even though they (Microsoft) had a more valid reason to do so. Says more about Epic than anyone else. I'm sure MS is working on a solution with Apple without acting like adolescent kids to get their way.

 

[mrcloaked]

The contrast is interesting.

 

[leman]

It's page 51 here: https://cdn2.unrealengine.com/epic-v-apple-8-17-20-768927327.pdf

(and quoted in the article to which this is the comment thread.)

Thank you for this, I am ashamed to admit that I have totally missed it! You are entirely correct, Apple does mention "losing access to developer tools and the SDK". I still find this rather puzzling for the reasons outlined below...

In addition, the letter seems to suggest that the license to use Apple's developer documentation will be revoked. You falsely suggest that the Apple Dev Tools are free software - they are not, they're proprietary software. They're not charged for, but they're still licensed and you need to have a valid license to use them, which requires you to be a signatory to the terms of the Apple Developer Agreement. If Apple withdraws your access to the Apple Developer Agreement you cannot compile fully native software for MacOS.

It's not technically enforced, but it is the legal reality.

You are entirely correct that usage of Xcode and Apple SDK requires a license agreement. My point is that the Developer Program and the Xcode SDK Agreement are two separate things. You get the license to use the tools as part of the Developer Program, but even without the developer program you can install Xcode and agree to it's license.

Basically, it is my understanding that Epic can obtain a new Xcode/SDK license even after their Developer Program has been terminated, simply by downloading Xcode and agreeing to it's license terms. I was not able to find any wording in the Xcode license agreement that would allow Apple to terminate or prohibit this, but then again I can't claim any significant expertise in legal English.

Again, more false information from you.

I admit that I might be wrong. I am certainly less sure about my claims than I was before I saw the working of Apple's letter. I have no idea of the legal intricacies involved. As I wrote above, as far as I understand one can obtain an Xcode license even after having a Developer Account terminated, since these things constitute two independent agreements. But I certainly might be wrong about this, as this is potentially a legal minefield.

Apple will not be able to notarise the Unreal engine toolset to run on MacOS according to the terms in the Apple letter.

You are entirely correct, Epic would lose the ability to sign and notarize macOS it's tools. Still, macOS can run unsigned software just fine, so I don't consider this to be a significant setback.

 

[drcre8tive]

"That will stop them! Let's remove access to the tools they use to create software for our platform!" Shoots self in the foot.

 

[4jasontv]

I prefer xbox cloud, google stadia, or play whatever the hell game I want to play, as happens on every platform except on iOS.

That has nothing to do with what I asked.

 

[4jasontv]

This isn’t a ban of the engine, the unreal engine is not malicious code. Doing what you propose would only harm other developers.

Other developers could use Unity, something else, or build their own. They are not limited to working with one company who will put their own games at risk. Epics punishment needs to be greater than their potential win to discourage future thieves.

 

[ikramerica]

Apple is showing what that 30% actually gets you. It isn’t nothing.

 

[Lone Deranger]

In the US? Can you provide some sources?

Yes I can.*

Where do you see that? Can you link me to your papers?

Yes I can.

Proof? Where can I find the internal memos that detail this? Did you screenshot them?

You're right. EpicGames, with their crack team of lawyers and their planned campaign didn't see any of this coming and all of this comes as a tremendous shock to them. My bad. /s

Can you back that up with some hard data? Are you privy to some of the discussions?

If I knowingly do something reckless at my job, against the stipulations of my contract and make a mockery of my employer on social media, that causes me to get fired, which in turn causes me not to be able to provide services my dependants (clients), then whose fault is it but my own.
One doesn't need to be privy of discussions to suss that one out.

*hint: it's below 50%.

 

[Abazigal]

Yes, I agree Microsoft handled it with much more tact and grace. It will be interesting to see if the contrast makes a difference.

Unlike Epic, Microsoft wasn't seeking to overturn the established world order, so they had no reason to go through the theatrics that Epic did. They were (justifiably) upset, and they made that known (which was well within their right), and that was the end of that.

 

[laptech]

I can see why Apple is defending it's 30% take on in-app purchases with regards to Epic Games. I just found this old article from 2018 https://sensortower.com/blog/fortnite-mobile-first-month which explains how much Epic earned from the mobile platform. If you scroll down and look at the table that relates to Epic's first month takings, you will see that Apple users spent $9.5m on the game in the first TWO WEEKS of the game being released and the figures have gone from strength to strength each year.

At the begining of the article it states that the average daily spending on the game when it was released was approx. $1 million. if that kind of spending holds true today due to the huge number of ios players there are, Apple are laughing all the way to the bank with regards to the game because they must be getting over at least $10 million a month just for hosting the game and providing the payment system. Considering Epic are the ones who have done all the work and have to continue to do all the work (support, game updates, game development), I can see why they might be a bit miffed at Apples 30% in-app purchase rule.

 

[cmaier]

Ah, that thing. If I remember correctly, it was less about cross-platform libraries but about frameworks that allowed you to deploy the same app to multiple platforms, since they wanted the apps to have that native look&feel.

Correct. Applied to game engines, at the time, as well as other frameworks.

 

[mrcloaked]

I trust your opinion.

 

[cmaier]

Where does Epic say they want something nobody else could get?

They said they wanted to keep their app, with the offending behavior, in the App Store for the pendancy of the legal action.

Nobody else gets to keep apps that violate the T&C’s in the App Store.

 

[Aichon]

So you are arguing [for Epic] to be treated differently? [...] The fact that Epic is big, with all those games you mention, you want different developers to be treated differently?

You're trying really hard to shove words I didn't say into my mouth. I provided a brief analysis of one, very minor angle to this fight, while explicitly NOT saying anything about who was right, who was wrong, or what they should do. Not only did I not say what you claim, it's something I wouldn't say (because it's wrong) and something I specifically said I wasn't saying.

Having a bee in one's bonnet is not going to win one's case in court.

Agreed. I pointed out business ramifications of what's going on, but I never suggested they formed a basis for a legal argument. To be clear, they don't. When it comes to the legal argument, at least inasmuch as the courts are concerned, I suspect that Apple is definitively on top here (which isn't the same thing as "being right", since winning a case in court does not mean that you should be doing the thing that you are doing), since there isn't legislation or regulation to back up Epic's complaints. I think that they're hoping legislators and regulators can use this legal case as ammunition to enact change, but until they do the law seems to clearly lean in Apple's favor.