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Did you read the developer program agreement? I did. Literally says

3.3.7 Applications must comply with the Human Interface Guidelines (HIG) and other Documentation provided by Apple

I then pointed out the specific documented rules that Epic violated.

You would have answered your own question if you bothered to read the agreement, obviously.

I'm not ok with your attitude and behavior. You want an intelligent conversation? Let's do it. But I'm not going to continue conversing with someone who insults others. Feel free to reply, but I'm no longer going to read anymore from you.
Yes I read agreements before I SIGN them - and - I am the legal representative with signing authority for multiple entities with published apps in Apple Stores.

If you actually read the developer agreement you would have correctly listed the relevant parts in your original reply to my post - instead you listed irrelevant parts of the App Review Guidelines. Sorry, please try harder.

My original post was about Apple's letter to Epic threatening Epic with termination of their developer program. Apple's letter DID NOT list the sections of the agreement that Epic was violating. That was my main point.

I have ZERO interest in your, or any other "latrine lawyer's" ill-informed opinion of how Epic violated the agreement. I want APPLE's reasons, stated as specific violations of the actual contract agreement.

I'm not a lawyer, but I've worked many of with them as part of my professional duties working for large corporations, and also my own professional concerns (companies I own). In my experience, if a party sends a "demand" letter claiming breach of contract (which is what Apple sent to Epic), the letter should list the parts of the contract that have been breached. If a demand letter does NOT contain such a list, it most likely is total BS - or, "dirty" legal tactics, which is what I'm guessing because it's how Apple operates (lack of good faith - but I'm not going to bother trying to explain).
 
Yes they are. And I cited the precise sections of the T&C‘s that say so. It’s not a “simple bug.” They violated T&C sections that (1) disallow hiding functionality from the app review team (which Epic did); (2) disallow violating the developer guidelines (which they violated in numerous ways); (3) require Epic to fix the issue within 30 days after being notified (which is why the date for being kicked out is the date that it is).

Read the T&C’s.
Read my previous post - I never asked for your opinion - I was asking for Apple's. They could not list anything in their letter, why do you feel the need to speak for Apple?
 
Yes I read agreements before I SIGN them - and - I am the legal representative with signing authority for multiple entities with published apps in Apple Stores.

If you actually read the developer agreement you would have correctly listed the relevant parts in your original reply to my post - instead you listed irrelevant parts of the App Review Guidelines. Sorry, please try harder.

My original post was about Apple's letter to Epic threatening Epic with termination of their developer program. Apple's letter DID NOT list the sections of the agreement that Epic was violating. That was my main point.

I have ZERO interest in your, or any other "latrine lawyer's" ill-informed opinion of how Epic violated the agreement. I want APPLE's reasons, stated as specific violations of the actual contract agreement.

I'm not a lawyer, but I've worked many of with them as part of my professional duties working for large corporations, and also my own professional concerns (companies I own). In my experience, if a party sends a "demand" letter claiming breach of contract (which is what Apple sent to Epic), the letter should list the parts of the contract that have been breached. If a demand letter does NOT contain such a list, it most likely is total BS - or, "dirty" legal tactics, which is what I'm guessing because it's how Apple operates (lack of good faith - but I'm not going to bother trying to explain).

Again, from the Apple Developer Program License Agreement:

Section 11.2 specifies conditions under which Apple may terminate. The most relevant portions are:

11.2 Termination
This Agreement and all rights and licenses granted by Apple hereunder and any services provided hereunder will terminate, effective immediately upon notice from Apple:
(a) if You or any of Your Authorized Developers fail to comply with any term of this Agreement other than those set forth below in this Section 11.2 and fail to cure such breach within 30 days after becoming aware of or receiving notice of such breach;


I‘ll come back to (a) in a moment. Continuing:

...

(f) if You engage, or encourage others to engage, in any misleading, fraudulent, improper, unlawful or dishonest act relating to this Agreement, including, but not limited to, misrepresenting the nature of Your submitted Application (e.g., hiding or trying to hide functionality from Apple’s review, falsifying consumer reviews for Your Application, engaging in payment fraud, etc.).

So (f) is already cause enough for Apple to terminate. The ”pay in the app” functionality was clearly hidden from Apple’s review.

But we also have (a). So what are the terms of the Agreement that Epic had 30 days to cure? Those would include at least the following:

3.3 Program Requirements
Any Application that will be submitted to the App Store, Custom App Distribution, or TestFlight, or that will be distributed through Ad Hoc distribution, must be developed in compliance with the Documentation and the Program Requirements, the current set of which is set forth below in this Section 3.3. Libraries and Passes are subject to the same criteria


In other words, one of the things that can get you kicked out of the app store/developer program under 11.2 is if you are not compliant with the “Program requirements” (i.e. Apple’s App Store rules.). This is further elaborated on:

3.3.3 Without Apple’s prior written approval or as permitted under Section 3.3.25 (In-App Purchase API), an Application may not provide, unlock or enable additional features or functionality through distribution mechanisms other than the App Store, Custom App Distribution or TestFlight

Epic seems to have unlocked the “pay in the app” functionality using a mechanism other than the App Store. So 3.3.3 is an example of a 3.3 Program requirement that, by not being followed, may trigger 11.2(a)


Then there’s this:

6.1 Submission to Apple for App Store or Custom App Distribution
You may submit Your Application for consideration by Apple for distribution via the App Store or Custom App Distribution once You decide that Your Application has been adequately tested and is complete. By submitting Your Application, You represent and warrant that Your Application complies with the Documentation and Program Requirements then in effect as well as with any additional guidelines that Apple may post on the Program web portal or in App Store Connect.
You further agree that You will not attempt to hide, misrepresent or obscure any features, content, services or functionality in Your submitted Applications from Apple's review or otherwise hinder Apple from being able to fully review such Applications

Again, the in-app payment stuff was clearly hidden from review. So they seem to have violated 6.1, which under 11.2(a) let’s apple terminate them.
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Read my previous post - I never asked for your opinion - I was asking for Apple's. They could not list anything in their letter, why do you feel the need to speak for Apple?
Because I can read? And nothing in the developer agreement requires Apple to state its reasons. The above is not an “opinion.” It’s actual quotes from the agreement.
 
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I'm not a lawyer, but I've worked many of with them as part of my professional duties working for large corporations, and also my own professional concerns (companies I own).

Funny, you state that you are not a lawyer, and yet you are arguing the law with an actual lawyer, admitted to the bar in California. Got it.
 
I am not sure why people are focusing on whether Epic breached Apple's terms. Of course it did, as Epic's beef is with those terms, on the basis that (in Epic's view) they are one-sided to the point of illegality. It has to breach those terms in order to precipitate the court case.

Whether a court will agree with Epic or Apple is a fascinating question, but I'm sure Epic is in with a decent shot - they will have had some pretty fancy lawyers advising on this strategy before making their move. It's probably not a sure thing, but Epic has a strong incentive to arrest any march towards closed platforms, with Apple being the lowest hanging fruit to set a precedent.

I've said it elsewhere on this forum, but I really think that too much is being made of the supposed crisis that might arise if Apple allowed the apps and payment methods it doesn't currently allow. An open platform works just fine on Windows and Mac OS - indeed it's facilitated an incredible array of software to be developed. In my view, with iOS now being used by over a billion people, the downsides of only allowing a curated walled-garden approach to the platform outweigh the positives for users. The biggest threat is to Apple's bottom line, but it can afford a little off that frankly.

I also think it would be great to have Steam or the Epic Games Store on iOS. Same with Geforce Now and Xcloud. It would also be good to have Kindle allow you to buy books within the app. Competition might encourage the App Store to be a bit more sophisticated too - reviews, curators, wish lists, forums, etc. that presently are absent and currently there is no competitive pressure on iOS to push this.

Epic's and Apple's motives are both profit - which is fine of course, you can expect nothing more of corporations. People may love Apple (or Epic), but they don't love us back. It's just not something companies can do.

If Epic wins Apple might even find that having others more invested in iOS cements it as the market leader in the same way that Windows was cemented as the market leader through software support. Interesting times.
 
People are focusing on the fact that Epic breached the contract. Hey, they know they breached the contract. The question is why they decided to do so? Because they are looking for the contract to be illegal due to its anti-competitive rules. It would be odd to dispute a contract that they are in agreement. That is all folks.

The 50% market share in the US creates pressure in the digital business market to be in the App Store, considering that businesses need to be where they customer are. Either iOS, Androids or Windows. Nothing to do with the the App Store. Now, the 30% cut its simply banking on that pressure. If you look at the market prices of the underlying App Store services (app host, listing & search, payment and billing, transaction processing), its not a fifth of that.

If iOS market share was the same or less than the Mac, such a pressure would not exist and the all App Store thing would be irrelevant, heck they could even charge 70%, no one would care. No Apps.

I also think it would be great to have Steam or the Epic Games on iOS. Same with Geforce Now and Xcloud. It would also be good to have Kindle allow you to buy books within the app.

This the natural way of thinking as a iOS customer. But most zealots here must be Apple CEOs or something.
 
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People are focusing on the fact that Epic breached the contract. Hey, they know they breached the contract. The question is why they decided to do so? Because they are looking for the contract to be illegal due to its anti-competitive rules. It would be odd to dispute a contract that they are in agreement. That is all folks.

While no one can know someone else's intentions, projecting Epic as an antitrust warrior is dubious. There is a cost to hosting a platform; fees for third party transactions are standard.

A simpler explanation is Epic is wants what it actually tried to do: Make More Money...and tried to throw it's "Fortnite" weight around at Apples and other developers' expense.
 
I am not sure why people are focusing on whether Epic breached Apple's terms. Of course it did, as Epic's beef is with those terms, on the basis that (in Epic's view) they are one-sided to the point of illegality. It has to breach those terms in order to precipitate the court case.

The highlighted part is simply not true. If Epic is right and Apple is engaging in an illegal restraint of trade, Epic could have sued having remained in compliance with their contracts. Their goal with their actions was to generate publicity and increase political pressure on Apple.

Whether a court will agree with Epic or Apple is a fascinating question, but I'm sure Epic is in with a decent shot - they will have had some pretty fancy lawyers advising on this strategy before making their move. It's probably not a sure thing, but Epic has a strong incentive to arrest any march towards closed platforms, with Apple being the lowest hanging fruit to set a precedent.

How is Apple the lowest hanging fruit? World wide they have under a 25% market share, in the U.S. they are well under 50%. Sony has over 50% of the video game console market. Not only do they charge the same 30% on electronic distribution, but they also charge a license fee on physical discs manufactured for their platform (no matter who presses them). In addition, unlike iOS where one could deliver an experience similar to an application via a web browser and pay no fee to Apple, one cannot deliver a similar gaming experience on a Playstation 4 without paying Sony.

I've said it elsewhere on this forum, but I really think that too much is being made of the supposed crisis that might arise if Apple allowed the apps and payment methods it doesn't currently allow. An open platform works just fine on Windows and Mac OS - indeed it's facilitated an incredible array of software to be developed. In my view, with iOS now being used by over a billion people, the downsides of only allowing a curated walled-garden approach to the platform outweigh the positives for users.

The problem with your argument is the actual market experience of Android. As a platform it suffers for malware, piracy, viruses, etc. all as a result of its “openness”. While it allows alternative stores, that was not enough for Epic (who sued them any way), because most people do not want that. It does not benefit users, it only benefits large developers that have subscription based services (making piracy less of a problem for them). I keep hearing people talk about the “incredible array of software” on Windows and the Mac, as if there is a dearth of options for iOS.

The biggest threat is to Apple's bottom line, but it can afford a little off that frankly.

Sorry, the biggest threat is to the user experience, with the second biggest threat being to the smaller developers who have to deal with piracy in a way that has not been an issue for them up until now. As a user, I love that I can get any app on the App Store and know I can pay for it without have to (enter) and share my credit card and PII information with some random store. I know that any App I purchase will be usable on every iOS device I have, and that I only have one place I need to go to ensure my updates happen. While you may enjoy needing to enter your information a million times and be happy to give out your personal details to any random company on the net, stop trying to say that it does not matter. If that is the environment you want, you have an option that already supports that - Android. It is the dominant platform with all the openness, so you should be able to get every app on it. If the apps are not there, please explain why that is the case.

What constantly frustrates me about people with your views is that it is not good enough for there to be an option that supports what you want, you want to ruin the system that works the way millions of others want it because you can not accept that maybe the differences be iOS/iPadOS/tvOS/watchOS and Android are caused by these differences. You say things like: “Windows allows these things and look how great that worked out!” I look at that, and the problems with Android and say: “I want none of that.”

I also think it would be great to have Steam or the Epic Games Store on iOS.

Glad you think that. I think it would terrible. The last thing I want is more fragmentation. I do not want to have to maintain a million different store accounts, worry about which app is on which store and how that affects my play rights, and a million other things like that. You hold up the Windows as an example of this great experience and I think that is the last thing I want. Had the internet existed when these platforms started and had sandboxing been an option technically, I think of how much better users would have had things. You look at the fragmentation and say: “Awesome. I am sure that gives us competition.” I say it is terrible and takes resources that would be spent making better products and spending them on supporting different purchasing APIs, library APIs, and other things that add nothing for me as a user.

Same with Geforce Now and Xcloud.

I am less opposed to these, but I will point out that their existence makes the chances of better native options less likely.

It would also be good to have Kindle allow you to buy books within the app.

Yup, because giving the monopoly provider even more power is good for the consumer. Got it.

Competition might encourage the App Store to be a bit more sophisticated too - reviews, curators, wish lists, forums, etc. that presently are absent and currently there is no competitive pressure on iOS to push this.

There is competition from Android and on Android there is competition from other stores. Are the reviews, curators, wish lists, etc. better over there? I do not think so.

Epic's and Apple's motives are both profit - which is fine of course, you can expect nothing more of corporations. People may love Apple (or Epic), but they don't love us back. It's just not something companies can do.

If Epic wins Apple might even find that having others more invested in iOS cements it as the market leader in the same way that Windows was cemented as the market leader through software support. Interesting times.

It is not the market leader except in profit share. It has under 50% share in every market. If Epic wins we all lose.
 
I've said it elsewhere on this forum, but I really think that too much is being made of the supposed crisis that might arise if Apple allowed the apps and payment methods it doesn't currently allow. An open platform works just fine on Windows and Mac OS - indeed it's facilitated an incredible array of software to be developed. In my view, with iOS now being used by over a billion people, the downsides of only allowing a curated walled-garden approach to the platform outweigh the positives for users. The biggest threat is to Apple's bottom line, but it can afford a little off that frankly.
There's only one thing that bugs me about this situation and that's if once the walls of the App Store drop, why wouldn't everyone want their own "storefront"?

Epic wants their own store, then Steam, then xcloud, etc. etc. On PC there's Origin, battlenet, GoG Galaxy, the Bethesda launcher to add to that. And that's just games, will other big players like Spotify want their own storefront too? And then that begs the question of unscrupulous practices of these storefronts. Steam for example allows a lot of garbage and outright spyware to be sold through their storefront with zero curation. (Not that there isn't a lot of garbage on the App Store, but it's not the cesspool Steam is). And then the user experience of iOS falters, I don't think that can be argued.

This the natural way of thinking as a iOS customer. But most zealots here must be Apple CEOs or something.
Let's keep the strawmen in the cornfields okay.
 
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Alan Wynn, Jmac.

The arguments you are responding to are defeatist, not informed. Save your breath.
 
I am not sure why people are focusing on whether Epic breached Apple's terms. Of course it did, as Epic's beef is with those terms, on the basis that (in Epic's view) they are one-sided to the point of illegality. It has to breach those terms in order to precipitate the court case.

Why couldn't they sue for declaratory judgement without first breaching?
 
People are focusing on the fact that Epic breached the contract. Hey, they know they breached the contract. The question is why they decided to do so?

No, that is not the question. They could have filed a lawsuit without violating their contract and putting at risk every developer who uses their engine. They wanted a publicity stunt and did not care who it hurt. It gives lie to their claims about their concern for other developers.

Because they are looking for the contract to be illegal due to its anti-competitive rules. It would be odd to dispute a contract that they are in agreement.

If Apple’s behavior is illegal, there is no need for them to violate their contract to show it. The contract itself would be all that was needed by the court.

The 50% market share in the US creates pressure in the digital business market to be in the App Store, considering that businesses need to be where they customer are.

Apple does not have 50% market share of mobile phones in the U.S.. They are closer to 40%. However, it really depends on how the court defines the market as to what their position is. In most cases, one needs to have well over 50% of the market to be considered a monopoly. We will have to wait and see what the court rules.

Nothing to do with the the App Store. Now, the 30% cut its simply banking on that pressure. If you look at the market prices of the underlying App Store services (app host, listing & search, payment and billing, transaction processing), its not a fifth of that.

Sorry, this has everything to do with the App Store, as if it was just about the option to create their own store, they would not be suing Google as well. On Android one can create one’s own store, or side load products. They tried that. They failed. They then decided to sell in the Google Play store. Apparently, the market value of the Play store exceeded their 30% cut. Prices have nothing to do with costs, they have to do with value. Apple and Google set their prices based on the value they expect their customers to receive, not by how much it costs them (although it usually needs to be over the cost, but not always).

If iOS market share was the same or less than the Mac, such a pressure would not exist and the all App Store thing would be irrelevant, heck they could even charge 70%, no one would care. No Apps.

In most of the rest of the world, Apple’s share of the mobile market is under 25% (and often under 18%), but it is the most profitable segment. It is not about the size of the market, it is about the quality of the customers.

This the natural way of thinking as a iOS customer. But most zealots here must be Apple CEOs or something.

Sorry, the zealots are those on your side, who refuse to accept that others want something different that what you want. There is an option that is as open as you want it to be (Android), and it has the dominant share. I am perfectly happy for it to work that way. Even when the studio with whom I was consulting suffered from a great so much piracy on Android that they had to change their business model on the platform, I did not ask for Google to change their policies. I am happy for both to exist.

Your side only wants one business model and opposes all others. Certainly seems like zealotry to me.
 
Confused. You're angry at Apple yet overjoyed at Google - who've also yanked Fortnite and who are also being sued by Epic?

Makes zero sense.
Oh wow, I never saw this coming. You sure got me(!)

The difference being, Google does not ban developers from even advertising the fact that you can sign up for the app's service, such as Spotify or Netflix. Their reason for disallowing Microsoft xCloud on the iOS platform is also total and utter BS and an anticompetitive, b***h move.

Apple is increasingly becoming like IBM, and I hope they lose this legal action.
 
Oh wow, I never saw this coming. You sure got me(!)

The difference being, Google does not ban developers from even advertising the fact that you can sign up for the app's service, such as Spotify or Netflix. Their reason for disallowing Microsoft xCloud on the iOS platform is also total and utter BS and an anticompetitive, b***h move.

Apple is increasingly becoming like IBM, and I hope they lose this legal action.
They won’t. I’m sad your wishes won’t come true.
 
Oh wow, I never saw this coming. You sure got me(!)

The difference being, Google does not ban developers from even advertising the fact that you can sign up for the app's service, such as Spotify or Netflix. Their reason for disallowing Microsoft xCloud on the iOS platform is also total and utter BS and an anticompetitive, b***h move.

Apple is increasingly becoming like IBM, and I hope they lose this legal action.

Like to know how they’re going to loose: There are very clear terms and conditions that Epic agreed to initially that they then decided to deliberately ignore.

That said, there is a far greater chance this will force Apple to change some of the terms and conditions later.

However, none of that forgives that they made a calculated decision to carry out an action contrary to the contract Epic had signed with Apple.

In addition The courts may take a dim view of the fact they then released the 1984 video at the same time. This clearly shows this was a deliberate coordinated attempt to force Apple’s hand. At best such an act could be classed as “bad faith”, at worse it’s potentially malfeasance.
 
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In addition The courts may take a dim view of the fact they then released the 1984 video at the same time. This clearly shows this was a deliberate coordinated attempt to force Apple’s hand. At best such an act could be classed as “bad faith”, at worse it’s potentially malfeasance.

And the fact that Epic tried to coordinate a number of developers to join in this action could be considered to be coordinating anti-competitive behaviours.
 
Why couldn't they sue for declaratory judgement without first breaching?

I'm not an American lawyer, but on this side of the pond the courts hate (and generally refuse) ruling on hypotheticals ('if Epic does X could Apple do that').
 
Clearly there are many personal preferences about what folks want on iOS. That's OK - I get many people like things about the current App store. I find it restrictive and lacking but others find it to be just fine. We will have to see which camp the court sides with.
 
Wow Apple is being complete and utter dog cr*p here. I was strongly considering buying a Pixel 4, now I'm certain it's right right move. Bye bye Apple. Greedy fascist scumbags.
I am happy for you. You are demonstrating that there are still options for users and that no one is forced to support a platform they do not like, nor on which they will not make money.

I seriously hope you enjoy yourself there (really, not being sarcastic) and then stop trying to destroy the platform I prefer. I like a platform where I know that I can buy software that is malware and tracking software free (or at least it is disclosed what trackers are there). I love that the platform’ s owner has made privacy a selling point so that (at the moment), its interests are aligned with mine. I like that it does not allow the largest companies to require that I create new accounts and share my PII to use their software.

As a software developer, I like that they have created a level playing field that does not let the biggest companies compete with me in unfair ways. I understand there are certain benefits the platform owner will always have over me, but at least they will be the only one.

All these things are reasons I like the current App Store model. I understand you think it is evil. That is totally fine. You should be grateful you have a choice and you should take it. What you should not do is decide that no one else’s choices are acceptable, and that they should be forced to only use a system that works as you want it to work.

I hope you enjoy your Pixel 4, I am told by the two people I know who use them, there are reasonably nice.
 
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I'm not an American lawyer, but on this side of the pond the courts hate (and generally refuse) ruling on hypotheticals ('if Epic does X could Apple do that').
Here too, but the facts here seem to suggest that whatever injury epic is alleging (inability to have its own rip-off App Store on ios) already has occurred.
 
Harsh. .... but fair.

Is it just me, or is this a perfect time when yor in the middle of a lawsuit?
 
No, that is not the question. They could have filed a lawsuit without violating their contract and putting at risk every developer who uses their engine. They wanted a publicity stunt and did not care who it hurt. It gives lie to their claims about their concern for other developers.

If Apple’s behavior is illegal, there is no need for them to violate their contract to show it. The contract itself would be all that was needed by the court.



Apple does not have 50% market share of mobile phones in the U.S.. They are closer to 40%. However, it really depends on how the court defines the market as to what their position is. In most cases, one needs to have well over 50% of the market to be considered a monopoly. We will have to wait and see what the court rules.



Sorry, this has everything to do with the App Store, as if it was just about the option to create their own store, they would not be suing Google as well. On Android one can create one’s own store, or side load products. They tried that. They failed. They then decided to sell in the Google Play store. Apparently, the market value of the Play store exceeded their 30% cut. Prices have nothing to do with costs, they have to do with value. Apple and Google set their prices based on the value they expect their customers to receive, not by how much it costs them (although it usually needs to be over the cost, but not always).



In most of the rest of the world, Apple’s share of the mobile market is under 25% (and often under 18%), but it is the most profitable segment. It is not about the size of the market, it is about the quality of the customers.



Sorry, the zealots are those on your side, who refuse to accept that others want something different that what you want. There is an option that is as open as you want it to be (Android), and it has the dominant share. I am perfectly happy for it to work that way. Even when the studio with whom I was consulting suffered from a great so much piracy on Android that they had to change their business model on the platform, I did not ask for Google to change their policies. I am happy for both to exist.

Your side only wants one business model and opposes all others. Certainly seems like zealotry to me.

The risk seams to be developing for Apple really! Now it’s requiring WordPress to include in app purchases to their subscription service.

Apple policy has always been targeted to collect 30% revenue share from all digital businesses with App for iOS.

Wait for macOS on ARM ... mandatory App Store.
 
Let's keep the strawmen in the cornfields okay.

Well look at WordPress. They were within the rules but now it seams Apple is requiring the in App subscription to be put in place. It does not seam that WordPress wants to have its own App Store business. But it does want to offer it’s customer a way to pay in the App as they do in their Apps in other platforms for a reasonable price. 30% revenue share is no way reasonable for the payment and hosting service.
 
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