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Apple To Buy TiVo?

mcgarry said:
EyeTV has come up in this discussion, of course, and while I don't own either right now, I understand there are some important differences. Most importantly, EyeTV lets the user save recorded television to their own computer, to do with what they will, more or less. TiVo just saves it to its own box, and it is near impossible to get it off and usable. Correct me if I'm wrong, I have little first-hand TiVo experience (my brother has it).
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I own 3 Tivo's and I would love for this to happen....in my experiance, here is what Tivo options you currently have...

iTunes support on the Mac, meaning that running Tivo Desktop you can actually peruse your playlists and such on the Tivo, for Windows you are stuck browsing the folder structure of your music (unless I am wrong here)

Windows supoprts MPEG2 (protected by a password) so that I can download my shows (speed varies depending on connection method) and play them from my desktop.

The thing that bothers me is that when I am transferring shows back and forth to the Tivo's it is basically in real time, so an hour show, takes an hour to copy...that sucks...it should just be able to copy it over as a file....but maybe there is some other magic happening behind the scenes that requires this....I am not sure. This is also true when I copy a show to my desktop.

One Tivo has a Linksys usb-802.11b adaptor, one has a Belkin adaptor and my main Tivo is using Ethernet. When I transfer a show from the linksys unit, I can watch it in real time as it transfers, however the other unit pauses and I need to let it copy more before I can watch.

This is an area I think Apple can help...also, there is an open source media center project underway for the Mini that looks promising....
 
thank the maker

This would be a SMART move for a variety of reasons:

*TiVo is cheap now due to its stock depreciation. $300 million for the company is dirt cheap when you consider Apple would be acquiring a nice IP porfolio including patents on "time shifting."

*An Apple/TiVo set-top box could be the leading convergence box for the living room and much more appropriate than trying to mod a Mac mini for that purpose.

*The set-top box could not only stream AAC content from your Mac/PC, but it would be a perfect place to buy stuff directly off the iTunes Music Store from your living room. Modifying the already agreed upon partnership between TiVo and NetFlix would only increase profits.

*Using H.264 compression, the Apple/TiVo would be the best-of-breed of upcoming DVR offerings in terms of the amount of programming that could be stored on the native hard drive - beating out the Comcast junk. None of the upcoming DVRs do any better than MPEG-2... Such a move would also hurt AV-1, better known as Windows Media 9/10.

*An Apple/TiVo box would be another device that could increase sales of Apple AirPort cards and AirPort stations which the current TiVo (nor any of the other DVRs) does not offer because there isn't an AirPort compatible expansion slot built in.

*Apple is strong enough to push the cable companies into actually backing the CableCard 2.0 standard which would break the lock that Comcast and others have on DVR offerings to their customers.

*Yet another "accessory" for the iPod user.

*Another device that could push sales of iSight cameras if a FireWire port was included. Videoconferencing on your Plasma tv in your living room.

*Apple could eliminate the basic TiVo service fees in order to better promote the iTunes/iMovie Store and the .Mac services.

*Apple could break the Microsoft Windows Media PC platform by implementing the TiVo software directly into OS X or as part of the iLife 06 package...well, as long as they made a Cable Card 2.0 dock via FireWire.

Please oh please oh please, Apple, make it so...

Signed,

A Desperate TiVoista...since Series1.
 
Doubtful

From a user's POV, I think this would be great, but from a business standpoint, not so simple.

First off, as has been mentioned, TiVo is a dying company as it stands now. They simply cannot compete with the DVRs offered by cable companies. A cable company charges a few (5-10) bucks a months for their (admittedly inferior) DVR, and you don't have to buy the box. TiVo has a much better interface, but you need to buy it, and then pay a monthly fee.

Compounding the problem is HDTV broadcast standards. TiVo and ReplayTV record standard def TV (SDTV) just fine, but once you go HD you have a whole other set of problems to deal with. Without getting in over my head, TiVo/RTV needs to work very closely with each cable provider to allow for HDTV recording, for a similar reason that the eyeTV only records over the air HD (there are standards/encryption issues). That's why TiVo (last time I capitalize that correctly) only has one HD recorder, and it only works with DirectTV. DTV is a big enough client for Tivo to work with, but imagine them trying to make a product compatible for each cable provider in each market. Oh, and it costs a thousand bucks.

There is a new cable HD standard being worked on, which should allow the eyeTV and other HD DVRs to work, but who knows how long it'll be before the standard is fixed, and new products roll out? It's got to be at least a year. And then, is it worth it? You have to compete with the cable providers, who charge less, and will eventually get their interface right.

So, it's been rumored that the way for Tivo/RTV to go is to license their interface/technology to cable providers, and stop selling standalone DVR boxes. Is that a profitable enough business for Apple to go into? I don't know about that.

--DT
 
Tulse said:
If Apple did buy TiVo, they would have to walk a very fine line between giving consumers more control over television while not irritating the content providers.
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Maybe Apple is just the company to bridge the the two.
As you mentioned Apple came up with an elegant solution for music, maybe their past results and a willing Jobs might make it work.
 
Perhaps one of the biggest advantages this could give Apple in the home/consumer TV world is brand recognition. It would be much easier for consumers to accept a new, revolutionary home theater/network/content/iVideo Movie Store if it had the TiVo name backing it. They have been in the market for years now, and, maybe more importantly, could get otherwise Apple-ignorants to give Jobs and Company a second look. We MR members know all too well the proliferation of ignorance about Apple and its products that drives consumers to dismiss stellar Apple creations. With TiVo, however, it would be another way of infiltrating peoples homes and mindshare, as Apple has done so well with iTMS/iPod.
 
I'm not sure this would be good. TiVo is on the rocks in terms of investors and long term viability. I think Apple would do well with a TiVo like device but if the stock price keeps going up they may end up paying more than what the company is actually worth.

I would also question the subscription model. I haven't used TiVo but done some research in to it, so if I'm wrong, please tell me so. To me, paying for TiVo is like paying a monthly fee to use your VCR. What does the subscription get you? A guide? Commercial skiping, live review, rewind? I don't want to pay for any of that. I can get a guide on my TV over an antenea. My DirecTV service comes with a guide. Rewinding, commercial skip, etc should all be HARDWARE items that I pay once for - not a subscription. But this is all information I have from salespeople so I would really like to know what all a subscription w/TiVo brings from those who use it.
 
Technology, not Business

As others have mentioned, Tivo does not have a viable business model. So if Apple buys Tivo, it will be for the technology and perhaps the patents. Are those worth $300,000,000? I don't know enough to say. But the fact that Apple will be paying for it with stock that is now $90/share would surely be a factor. (Many people have speculated that the rise in Apple's share price will lead them to do some shopping. This could be just the first item in the cart.)
 
Lynxpro said:
*Apple could eliminate the basic TiVo service fees in order to better promote the iTunes/iMovie Store and the .Mac services.
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I've heard imovie enough by now... first, apple never uses a name we think of, so imovie is out. Second, it wouldn't be parallel. it's not imusic or isongs, but itunes. I predict the iflicks movie store... or iflix, if the tivo buyout brings partnership with netflix
 
I don't see much where Apple will benefit. Apple already has the infrastructure in place (iTMS, QT, servers, trailer downloads, h.264) to quickly put in place their own movie download store. They don't need TiVo for this.

As for introducing an Apple-branded DVR, wouldn't buying ElGato make more sense? ElGato is even a smaller company that is focussed solely on the hardware. Apple can rebrand/repackaged the hardware, better integrate the software with iLife, and offer their own DVR.

Finally, Apple doesn't seem the type to run a subscription service that TiVo offers. It's a money-losing scheme, as others have noted. What would Apple get out of running the service, other than offering better OS X compatibility?

Generally Apple buys software companies. They buy technologies. I'm skeptical whether there is that much technology to buy in TiVo to be worth the $300 mil. Didn't NeXT cost about that much when Apple bought it? Apple got a ton of technology and engineering talent when they bought NeXT, not to mention Steve Jobs. I just don't see TiVo having similar value.
 
Broadcast flag. There, I said it.

Seriously, though... I don't think SJ goes for others dictating how his DRM behaves... especially if cable jockeys are in control.
 
I've heard this rumor in the past but the timing seems right this time. I'm a big fan of both products and it would be a great partnership.
 
More evidence to support my theory

I'm going to have to comb through Slashdot's archives to find where I was predicting this a couple years ago. I feel almost brilliant. :)

This possibility of buying TiVo makes me further believe that Apple is headed for some kind of movie rental/purchase store a la iTunes.

If you look over what Apple has been doing for the last few years, you can make out a trajectory headed for digital movie delivery to home users. I suspect there is a grand plan behind this to do digital movie rentals with the spectacular coolness that iTunes does for music purchases. That means, you may have the option to burn a purchased film to DVD as you can burn music to CDs.

They started by establishing the pipes with the movie trailers page, iTools/.Mac and then iTunes. There's the bandwidth, but you also have a cozying up with Hollywood and the entertainment industry. What next? iTunes obviously and the music store to prove that this can work.

Meanwhile, they're building wireless connectivity into all their products. DVD burners are showing up with incredibly easy-to-use applications for using them. There are huge advances in QuickTime and codecs to do amazing things (Pixlet.) The iPods make their debut, but they get bigger and the high end ones can handle photos too... and curiously... can connect to your TV and show slideshows. Then there's the Airport Express to broadcast content to your stereo.

Am I just dreaming here? Doesn't all that look rather interesting when you think in terms of movies?

So anyone else think we're headed for the Apple Movie Store? Download the movie to your hard drive to watch on your computer or broadcast across your home to your TV... or pack it around on your iPod to connect somewhere else and watch the movie. And for a little extra, you can pop a DVD in and burn a copy to keep.
 
Very good for TiVo...

TiVo's software right now is a mess. This is largely due to overly large demands on a weak processor, which causes difficulty in keeping the system balanced. The system is very slow, degrades rapidly and does not do well with new features HMO and HD. This could be fixed by a move to OSx and some sort of Cell Processor, which Apple could provide the impetus for the switch.

The only real advantage to apple is that the DVR market is one of the most patent protected you can imagine. Almost any possible feature has been patented by either TiVo or Replay. So Apple would gain the TiVo Patent set.

It would probably take at least a year for Apple to Appleize the product line. (Improve the box, the processor, the software) but it would likely be true that the Apple box would kick ass over the microsoft product...

At the end of the day it is not clear that people will pay $499 for the box, And I suspect that is where apple would need to price it in order to profit from it.
 
what the?

ZildjianKX said:
I call bullcrap. TiVo is going down the tubes fast (being pushed out)... I just don't see this happening. At least if it did, maybe TiVo would get better customer support.
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and yet every single person I know who has a Tivo absolutely love it, myself included. I hate watching "normal" tv now when I'm not at home. Tivo needs to price themselves a bit better and offer more incentives. I have the Directv version which lets me record from two seperate tuners at once while still watching a previously recorded show. Not even the standard tivo boxes do that. Then again, the standard ones let you network your photos and music.

Tivo has changed the way people watch television and Apple could help change it for the better that much more.
 
emw said:
TiVoToGo allows you to pull programs off to your PC. Yes, PC. Mac support is supposedly coming, but no definitive word on when.
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If Apple indeed does buy TiVo, I'm anxious to see if they do the same as they did with E-Magic, which is to drop PCs out.

TiVo is more of a hardware thing though, so I guess both platforms could be supported quite easily.
 
Cable co anti-trust

I think there are some serious antitrust violations going on with the cable companies' DVR giveaways designed to kill TiVO. I wouldn't be surprised if the movie studios are kicking some non-financial favors the way of Comcast to encourage them -- how much $ per box do they lose for these $10 per month, $0 for the equipment deals?

I own a ReplayTV with no monthly fees (bought it open box from BestBuy with the lifetime prescription already purchased -- what a bargain) and even I'm tempted to switch to the Comcast DVR because it works with HDTV and can record OnDemand (which RTV cannot.)

Unless Apple has some grand plan in mind that will either get Comcast to back off its aggressive DVR strategy or (better yet) become their DVR/set top provider, I think a TiVO purchase would be insane. Even poaching the TiVO technology isn't worth it because Apple would have to dilute their own brand by pissing off the TiVO fanatics when they (inevitably) shut the service down.
 
You beat me to it. First if this rumor were to happen I would bet the Linux OS on TiVo would be switched to Darwin with all subsequent necessary pieces of software ported as well.

As far as Quartz on the system I would say Apple would most likely use X-windows and Darwin together with a custom interface, for the short-term.

Until Apple determines it's future path with Cell or not they wouldn't abandon over 3 million acquired TiVo users by requiring them to switch hardware.

They would do a future upgrade path.

But this would be definitely after Tiger is long since released along with the Tigerised Darwin.

bit density said:
TiVo's software right now is a mess. This is largely due to overly large demands on a weak processor, which causes difficulty in keeping the system balanced. The system is very slow, degrades rapidly and does not do well with new features HMO and HD. This could be fixed by a move to OSx and some sort of Cell Processor, which Apple could provide the impetus for the switch.

The only real advantage to apple is that the DVR market is one of the most patent protected you can imagine. Almost any possible feature has been patented by either TiVo or Replay. So Apple would gain the TiVo Patent set.

It would probably take at least a year for Apple to Appleize the product line. (Improve the box, the processor, the software) but it would likely be true that the Apple box would kick ass over the microsoft product...

At the end of the day it is not clear that people will pay $499 for the box, And I suspect that is where apple would need to price it in order to profit from it.
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macnews said:
What does the subscription get you?
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While I would agree that the subscription is a little pricey, here's what you get:

- The guide, which is more than just the TV guide, allows you to select any program and record it right from the guide screen. This is up to 2 weeks in advance

- Online scheduling. I can record anything on any of my TiVo boxes by going online to tivo.com and scheduling it, which is a great feature.

- TiVoToGo (for PC only now) to record shows to a PC.

Still, it's a little expensive, but compared to other things I pay for, it's not too bad.
 
What does TiVo have to do with streaming content?

Everyone has come up with the idea of iTMS expanding to video, but I don't see what that has to do with TiVo.

The iTMS model would translate to video by saying you pay $2.99 for a one-time stream of a movie and/or you pay $9.99 for a full download of it, to be viewed on 1-5 computers. (I'm, just making these up, but if you take out all the physical distribution costs, they should be able to "rent" and "sell" movies for these prices.)

As I understand it, the TiVo is for recording TV programming. To translate into digital terms, it is for capturing a stream for later viewing.

How do the two relate?

They both have to do with video, and sure it would be nice to have both features on my TV. But TiVo doesn't seem to add anything to an iSVS (iStream Video Store?).

Or am I missing something?
 
Tivo - losing business strategy? What kind of drugs ....

Tivo - losing business strategy? What kind of drugs are you "guys" on? They just announced a record number of net number of subscribers for the end of January. Over 2 million.

GregGomer - if TiVo was harder to use than ReplayTV and UltimateTV (don't you mean Ultimate loser TV?) then it wouldn't have died a horrible death. Face it, TiVo is LOTS better for many reasons including "Season's Pass." I tried the other two and it was a very easy pick for TiVo. Actually DirecTV/TiVo. And I've let DirecTV know that I am MUCH more loyal to TiVo than to DirecTV. Want to loose a customer? Try to force me onto a different DVR and drop all DirecTV/TiVo upgrade paths. I'm still not happy (and told them so) that there isn't a DirecTV/TiVo II unit.

I agree that this _could_ be a very good thing for Apple to buy them based on movie rentals and purchases. I would do both. Especially if I had the opportunity to pay the difference between renting and buying. The latter only if I could burn it to a DVD and not just leave it on my hard drive.

TiVo dying? What drugs are you guys on? Look at the net number of subscribers. It went up something like 47% in January.
 
Compounding the problem is HDTV broadcast standards. TiVo and ReplayTV record standard def TV (SDTV) just fine, but once you go HD you have a whole other set of problems to deal with. Without getting in over my head, TiVo/RTV needs to work very closely with each cable provider to allow for HDTV recording,
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Dude no offense but you're already over your head. Go do some searches on Cable Card. In a nutshell it's FCC mandated that Cable Ops allow premium content via Cable Cards. It's all the same card for each each Cable Op generally. Easy as pie.

don't see much where Apple will benefit. Apple already has the infrastructure in place (iTMS, QT, servers, trailer downloads, h.264) to quickly put in place their own movie download store. They don't need TiVo for this.
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Dongmin you're forgetting a key component. Tivo has 3 million subscribers. Thus we need to look at how long it would take Apple to

1. create the hardware and software
2. create a userbase

Not easy to do even if you have the right components. Buying Tivo allows Apple to start on the 3rd floor rather than the ground floor. They could engender good will by lowering the monthly fees to $8.95 or so.

Finally, Apple doesn't seem the type to run a subscription service that TiVo offers. It's a money-losing scheme, as others have noted. What would Apple get out of running the service, other than offering better OS X compatibility
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They get a ready made infrastructure and marketing campaign. Tivo is known like kleenex and Xerox. It's the branding that is so important. It's also a potential bedrock to infuse more Apple services in the future. iTMS support, Airport and other technologies.

I just don't see TiVo having similar value.
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Other than Steve Jobs and Avi Tevananian just how much talent do you think Apple really got with NeXT? Tivo has more talent than you know...do a search on Strangeberry, Tivo's last aquisition and you'll see some intriguing talent that Apple could bring into the fold.

At the end of the day it is not clear that people will pay $499 for the box, And I suspect that is where apple would need to price it in order to profit from it.
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I didn't think people would pay $399 for and iPod and they did. Apple can circumvent this issue by making a Tivo "more" than just a DVR. It would control your cable, play your music files and audio files and view your Photographs in High Definition.

Hasn't it dawned on anyone that EVERY component of iLife would work in an updated Tivo? iDVD and iMovie streaming their content right to your TV, iPhoto displaying slideshows on your HDTV, Garageband playing your files on the Tivo. I'd pay $500 for that.
 
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