Apple To Buy TiVo?

[Lynxpro]

patents up the wazoo

If Apple bought TiVo, they'd have pretty much all the IP for set-top boxes in terms of DVR functionality.

*With such a patent portfolio at its disposal and with Apple's cash reserves to fund IP protection, Apple could put a big hurt on the cable companies with their DVR wares.

*TiVo filed a lawsuit against Dish Network (Echostar) over the Dish Player PVR once Dish started throwing in their offering for free with their regular service. The suit is not on antitrust groups but on patent infringement.

*TiVo has never sued Microsoft for the UltimateTV product, nor any of the machines that Windows Media Center PC OS runs atop. There is no evidence that the recent detente (sic) between Microsoft and TiVo in terms of using the TiVo-To-Go Service with Windows Media/Pocket PC portable devices include any sort of payola to cover Microsoft's own IP violations of TiVo's intellectual property in the past.

*TiVo has not sued Comcast over their deployment of the Motorola DVR series. Comcast is/was a shareholder in TiVo. However, that is not a barrier to suing; 3dfx wound up suing Sega over tearing up their contract to supply the graphics chipset in the Dreamcast when Microsoft successfully pressured Sega to opt for the NEC PowerVR chipset instead. The backstory to that was NEC complained to Microsoft over the deal and Microsoft made Sega change chipsets since Microsoft paid for the Dreamcast development (it ran WinCE) and everyone should consider the Dreamcast as the Xbox-beta (or alpha).

*Likewise, TiVo has not sued Charter or Time Warner Cable for offering the Motorola or Moxi set-top boxes.

*TiVo could also challenge DirecTV over supplying a DirecTV branded DVR based upon the design by NDS. NDS of Britain is a company owned by Rupert Murdoch whose News Corp. (aka "Fox") owns 33% of DirecTV stock. It is Murdoch's meddling that is forcing DirecTV to "change" platforms, not a grand design on DirecTV's part to ruin TiVo. If Apple does not buy TiVo, I expect Murdoch to snap it up so he has leverage with the IP portfolio to make sure all the cablecos offer any new channels News Corp. decides to debut. Murdoch picked quite a fight with Time Warner when he launched Fox News and Time Warner refused to carry the network on the Time Warner Cable systems. That was a very expensive fight that Murdoch would most likely want to avoid. NDS has yet to ship working software that matches TiVo, even after boasting for 3 years now that they'd be superior.

*If Apple wanted to dominate the DVR IP, they'd have to buy up ReplayTV (and finally put that product line out of its misery) from D&M Holdings, which is Denon. A few years back (and I can't recall if it was the Replay under SonicBlue or not), ReplayTV and TiVo slugged it out in court over IP...after wasting tons of money, they cross-licensed their portfolios. If memory recalls, ReplayTV licensed some of their IP to Scientific Atlanta for their set-top boxes. TiVo has licensed their IP for some of Sony's DVR products in Japan.

*And of course, Hauppage, ATi, and Nvidia must also have IP in terms of DVR like features on the PC platforms via their tv tuner cards.

All in all, he who holds these patent porfolios and wishes to actually enforce them would be far more successful facing down the cablecos and satellite providers than a company just entering the market today. All the more reason for Apple to acquire TiVo.

 

[WildCowboy]

TiVo recently shot itself in the foot when it declined to partner with Comcast to become their DVR provider. TiVo thought they deserved more money than Comcast was offering, and so they walked away. Comcast (one of the largest, if not the largest cable companies in the US) started their own (inferior) system, leaving TiVo out in the cold. Hence the resignations of TiVo's management and poor stock performance in recent months...it's not clear whether they have a future.

I purchased a TiVo back in January and tried it for a month...while I loved the interface and ease of use, I was disappointed in the HD space ($100 after-rebate model says 40 hours, but it's more like 23 hours if you want any sort of decent quality) and most notably in the lack of dual tuner functionality (through no fault of TiVos, of course, but still a problem). So I returned my TiVo to Best Buy after 30 days for a full refund and got my one month TiVo subscription fee refunded (still feel guilty about that), and signed up for Comcast's DVR. Dual-tuner, 60 hours recording time, everything consolidated in one set-top box, no equipment fee, lower monthly fee...lots of advantages. The interface isn't nearly as slick as TiVo, and I've had some problems with the Comcast's Motorola unit overheating, but it's liveable.

Dual tuners is the deal-breaker for me...find a way to allow TiVo access to play nicely with the cable company equipment, and I'll be a TiVo owner. I'd like to see what Apple can do with the TiVo technology and product offerings, but as it stands right now, TiVo is dead in the water.

 

[ipodmann]

This may very well another attempt for Wall Street to keep the price of aapl hot for as long as possible.

I agree with most of you that it is unlikely for this deal to happen, however there is something interesting to think about.

Steve is looking into the future and may have thought of something the rest of us did not fanthom. The music industry on the net was his for the taking and he took advantage of it. The video rental outfits are loosing money galore. If he can provide some service in the area of video that is cool and easy to use, this may be one way. For the life of me I can't think of how Apple can do so with TIVO.

 

[looklost]

Apple has the midas touch

If Apple can take a portable hard drive and turn it into the must have music player of our times what do you think they can do with a DVR.

 

[LimeiBook86]

Wow...

This could possibly turn that little Mac Mini into a PVR. Imagine the possibilities...

Watch TV
Record TV
Record to DVD

*drools*

This would be cool but as someone said before, I'll believe it when I see it.

 

[narco]

This would be awesome.

If Apple bought eyeTV and TiVo, used all of eyeTV software and completely abandon TiVo (just use their name for brand recognition) then I'd buy. I hate monthly fees, and I'm sure 99% of the earth's population do as well.

Make it one unit that you buy for a couple or few hundred dollars, then it's free to pause, rewind and do all that other stuff. You can look up schedules and so-on through the internet via-wireless connection.

Total awesomeness.

Fishes,
narco.

 

[DTphonehome]

Isn't there also a one off $199 payment option?

That makes it a much cheaper alternative over the long term.

They do have lifetime subs, but the sub is tied to the hardware, so you'd have to be content with the old machine for over 2 years for it to work out to be a savings. WIth Tivo that's not so attractive, because you can't put in a bigger HD, but I've been using a ReplayTV for about 2 years now, and I'm just ready to put in a giant HD. Recording time will go from 40 hours to 320!

--DT

 

[dongmin]

Other than Steve Jobs and Avi Tevananian just how much talent do you think Apple really got with NeXT? Tivo has more talent than you know...do a search on Strangeberry, Tivo's last aquisition and you'll see some intriguing talent that Apple could bring into the fold.

Steve Jobs, CEO - previously of NeXT
Jon Rubinstein, VP iPod division - previously of FirePower Systems and NeXT
Bertrand Serlet, VP Software Engineering - previously of NeXT
Avie Tevanian, Chief Technology Officer - previously of NeXT

That's pretty much the entire engineering braintrust at Apple, all from NeXT.

You're forgetting a key component. Tivo has 3 million subscribers. Thus we need to look at how long it would take Apple to

1. create the hardware and software
2. create a userbase

Not easy to do even if you have the right components. Buying Tivo allows Apple to start on the 3rd floor rather than the ground floor. They could engender good will by lowering the monthly fees to $8.95 or so.

They get a ready made infrastructure and marketing campaign. Tivo is known like kleenex and Xerox. It's the branding that is so important. It's also a potential bedrock to infuse more Apple services in the future. iTMS support, Airport and other technologies.

You've got to be joking. TiVo is 'known like Kleenex and Xerox'??? Apple needs marketing help and brand recognition from TiVo??? The last I heard, Apple is doing pretty well in the consumer space with iTMS, iPod, and Mac Mini. TiVo's 3 million subscribers is a drop in the bucket for Apple. Apple is gonna sell 500 million songs this year. That alone is more in revenues than TiVo's 3 million subscribers have to offer.

The key for Apple--if and when they go into selling video content--is to leverage iTunes. iTunes has far more market penetration potential than anything TiVo has to offer. It's Apple's ultimate trojan horse (the good kind).

TiVo's business is fundamentally different from Apple's. TiVo loses money on its hardware to sell its service. Apple provides software and service to sell its hardware (more akin to ElGato). So if Apple ever acquires TiVo, it's not for their business model.

As I said before, if Apple wants to get into the DVR business, it makes more sense for them to acquire ElGato. ElGato's products are complementary. They would help sell more Macs. You were talking about iLife integration. Well EyeHome already does that--way better than what TiVo has done so far.

 

[rdowns]

Apple and music go together. Apple and video go together. Apple and consumers go together. So this isn't an unreasonable avenue for a possible Apple investment.

I read a business article about TiVo last week, and it said their business is helped by their many loyal fans, who want them to succeed and swear by their product. Sound familiar?

You're not kidding. When I was waiting for FedEx to ring my bell with my new Tivo, I hopped on over to http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/

You think questions get answered in here fast? Had it up and running in less than 10 minutes (it really is easy and intuitive to use). Best piece of technology I ever bought (next to my Macs, of course). I never watch live TV anymore.

That being said, the only reason I can see for Apple to but them is for their programming expertise. As good as Tivo is, I don't see them lasting due to people not getting the technology (Macs anyone?) and cable/satellite providers providing cheap alternatives for the lemmings.

 

[d.perel]

ANYTHING TO GET TV TUNERS PREBUILT INTO MAC COMPUTERS!!!!!! Windows media center has an edge! Most people never have heard of a tv tuner for a mac, although the AlchemyTV DVR ones from Miglia aren't bad.
It would be an interesting concept to put a tv tuner in the mac mini, and use it as a DVR on top of a TV
- As an investment, though, I don't think that this would pay off in cash terms through Tivo service/sales

 

[rdowns]

I doubt it, TiVo is about the most unituitive DVR I've ever used. We personally use the old Microsoft Ultimate TV that they don't make any more, because, I know this makes no sense, but it has the best user interface of any I've seen and is fast, and just easy to use. Where as the TiVo I have to hit sometimes 10 more buttons/steps just to set up a recording. Infact most DVRs that I've used that are user friendly, comcast or ReplayTV all mimic the UltimateTV interface. Where as TiVo, I'ts just not intuitive, which just isn't apple. Plus it seems to be missing all the things we all love about Apple, cool features and integration to the digital hub world. So unless Apple was planning to release a new revised version under with a new OS and new features, but benefiting from the TiVo name... it just doesn't make sense.... And even then, they could ride the iPod name almost as well as the TiVo name, granted by buying TiVo they buy into a huge user base. But other then that... I just don't see how it benefits them. As TiVo just needs an general overhaul.

I couldn't disagree more. I absolutely love my Tivo and its interface. My brother has Replay TV so I've seen theirs. Are you aware of all the remote shortcuts that exist? Check out http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/index.php?s=
and search "remote shortcuts".

 

[BigDogg]

I recently read an article on Yahoo's Tech Tuesday link talking about how tivo is starting to feel the competition.

Here is a recent

link about Apple possibly buying tivo.

 

[JeffTL]

I love my TiVo.

But frankly, I'd rather see a Mac mini with a CableCard 2.0 slot (or FireWire adapter) and no subscription costs -- not only would I get a mini, but also digital cable and a nicer TV (or just use a monitor), if the software were good.

 

[rdowns]

At the end of the day it is not clear that people will pay $499 for the box, And I suspect that is where apple would need to price it in order to profit from it.

That's what people said about a $500 MP3 player. iPod for your TV- 'nuff said.

 

[nutmac]

If Apple buys TiVo, Apple won't merely refine and continue selling DVR. Most likely, Apple will phase TiVo out while integrating TiVo's technologies (or extending brand recognition) into new product based on different business model (iPod Home?) or into existing products (Mac mini? iLife '06? AirPort Extreme 2?).

The fact remains TiVo is an attractive brand and Apple may get a lot value out of $300 million. On the flip side, TiVo's existing business model is not working out and its future is looking bleak due to important business partners (e.g., Comcast, DirecTV) directly competing against them. TiVo needs to reinvent itself, and Apple may be the best company to achieve that.

 

[obeygiant]

okay i have a comcast DVR and it frickin rocks!
record pause live TV, record shows, and burn them
to DVD later. AND record Hi-Def shows and movies.
Tons of room. For........READY?......$5 more a month.

unbeatable.


Tivo and Apple does SOUND tantalizing, however I'm not
sure if apple should take on such a money pit while they're
kicking butt with the iPod.

 

[befidled]

Great way to get Apple into households

I think this is a great strategic move. If Apple does buy TiVo and we assume that 95% of TiVo users aren't currently Apple customers, then in one fell swoop Apple will have an additional 2.85 million customers that they can market directly to and at no or relatively little cost.

For only $300 million that's only $10 of marketing per new customer.

Go for it Apple!

 

[madmaxmedia]

A. Regarding their declining customer base, Apple would be buying Tivo mainly for their technology, not their customer or revenue stream. Of course they will try to maintain and grow the standalone Tivo sales...

Apple could develop their own tech for this, but it's far easier to just buy Tivo whose stock is in the dumps right now. Apple has the cash, Tivo is a drop in the bucket.

B. This technology will not only be for Macs, it will be for the next-generation iPod as well. Imagine an iPod that had Tivo-level functionality with iPod grace and UI. It would really put the current crop of video players to shame. I can already see Jobs at the next MacWorld, talking about the 'torturous interface' that current video players have...

I think the key to making the video thing work is to make it like television/ Tivo where content is automatically refreshed. Not only that, but all your Mac devices will work together in this aspect. Fire up your Tivo.app from any Mac or iPod or regular television in the house (except your Shuffle), and access your Tivo-recorded content...

Current movie player devices use the music library paradigm, which is totally wrong for video. Regular people watch movies on DVD and VCR, they don't have an overwhelming need to encode DivX movies to a handheld video player so they can watch Spider-Man 2 while on the can. OTOH, fresh broadcast content makes much more sense for a portable video player- you can watch the news or a short sitcom while on the bus or whatever.

Actually, I can almost guarantee this is the direction Apple will go- I know they will make it work. And the people will love it.

I've been generally pessimistic about convergence and home media networks, because I think for the general consumer they are far more trouble than they are worth. OTOH, I think Apple using Tivo technology could actually make it work well enough that people will want it and buy it.

One of my key factors for my bullishness on Apple stock has been that they willl eventually come out with new consumer electronics products besides the iPod. I think this is where they're going to go.

I hope this deal goes through- it will really signal Apple's next major move beyond digitial music.

 

[rdowns]

"At the end of the day it is not clear that people will pay $499 for the box, And I suspect that is where apple would need to price it in order to profit from it."

$499? Who the h*** is paying $499 for TiVo. Every ad I see is for $99 or less as long as you agree to a two year subscription to TiVo. I even see "three room TiVo" for Zero dollars (ok - $14.95 for shipping) with a two year subscription.

He didn't say people were paying $499 for Tivo, he said that is what Apple would have to charge to make a profit. He's probably right as Tivo is losing a ton of money on their hardware and not making enough on the razor blades (monthly subscriptions). Apple would not get into it to sell DVRs at a loss.

 

[nuckinfutz]

Jon Rubinstein, VP iPod division - previously of FirePower Systems and NeXT
Bertrand Serlet, VP Software Engineering - previously of NeXT

Excellent men Dongmin but very few outside of Apple circles know of Bertrand and Jon.

You've got to be joking. TiVo is 'known like Kleenex and Xerox'???

Why recreate the wheel if you don't have to. Tivo is now a verb "please Tivo this show for me tonight" That kind of presence is worth paying for. Sure Apple could eventually create a new product that is well received but would it cost them less than 300 million? Would they possibly get the services of Arthur Van Hoff? I doubt it.

As I said before, if Apple wants to get into the DVR business, it makes more sense for them to acquire ElGato. ElGato's products are complementary. They would help sell more Macs. You were talking about iLife integration. Well EyeHome already does that--way better than what TiVo has done so far

absolutely false. 3 million "paying" customers are always preferrable to 3 million freeloaders. Elgato isn't even close to having what Tivo has in the pipeline with "Tahiti" and their partnership with Netflix and even Microsoft. Dongmin concede defeat, that is unless you have a taste for crow

okay i have a comcast DVR and it frickin rocks!

Yeah but you're getting raped by Comcast for their video packages. You guys haven't seen what's coming. Do you think Verizon is laying Fiber to the premises just because people want 30Mbps download speeds? NO! The Baby Bells are laying the infrastructure for video services over broadband. Video over IP will be the next "big" thing when the pipes to homes get much fatter. The FCC has already made sure that Cable Ops have to keep their services open enough.

Imagine-

I have a box sitting on top of my TV in 2007. I have one remote for this device. The device has:

Sony/IBM/Toshiba Cell processor- I need Multimedia grunt to encode/decode AVC and MPEG2 in HDTV quality.

Hard Drive Space- 500GB and with AVC at 12Mbps for HD I can record 50 hrs of HD quality or 120 hrs of DVD quality video.

Quicktime - It uses Quicktime so not only can utilize my video codecs but I can play back my Garageband, iPhoto and iMovie files with ease.

Wireless - I have 802.11n with 80Mbs throughput wirelessly. The future may offer Ultra Wideband(UWB) for double the speeds.

Wired Networking - Gigabit and possibly Homeplug AV using Zeroconf for easy network discovery.

iTunes Music Store - Not only can I download iTunes music tracks but I can also download special movie trailers that play in their full glory on my television thanks to the efficient AVC codec. Precursor to movie downloads.

View Photographs- I can view my Photographs in HD glory and watch slideshows from iPhoto.

Music-- Not only can I play back all my files but I can take advantage of multichannel aac files now on iTunes. They play just fine through my AV system.

Guide Data - is free now but the hardware isn't subsidized anymore. I'll pay $250 for a basic machine the Top model includes Wireless access. Bluetooth 2.0 remote and a built in Blu Ray or HD-DVD recorder for $999

This isn't about duplicating Tivo's "Money Pit" people. This is about realizing the change that is coming to the "connected home' and capitalizing on this. People don't even realize that in 3-5 years they will suddenly see their TV Entertainment options go from a few providers to dozens.

Apple knows this..hell Tivo knows this but most consumers do not.

 

[varmit]

The iBox is back in production.

 

[gugy]

The most exciting thing about this rumor is the possibility of Apple coming up with a DVR kind like device. I really don't care for Tivo. I know a lot of people like them but the truth is Apple don't need to buy them in order to jump in this market. I agree with previous posts that Elgato would be a more interesting buy.
But, if makes sense for Apple to buy them for whatever reason, I would be happy to have such device coming in the near future. It's about time!

This will complement the media hub strategy. I can't wait to record anything I want and use Idvd or DVD studio pro to burn, And if there is HD capabilities as well, it would be awesome.

That brings some light in the rumor that a 40" plus Apple monitor is a possibility coming in the near future.

 

[ThomasJefferson]

Can I get the hallelujah chorus to sing, "Where's my powerbook G5".


"Ha.......lle..lu.jah!" "Hallelujah!-Hallelujah!"

 

[HiRez]

They do have lifetime subs, but the sub is tied to the hardware, so you'd have to be content with the old machine for over 2 years for it to work out to be a savings. WIth Tivo that's not so attractive, because you can't put in a bigger HD

You most definitely can put a larger hard drive into a TiVo (even up to dual 160 GB drives), hundreds of thousands of people have done it including myself. Also, you can transfer a lifetime TiVo subscription to another TiVo box.

 

[TheMasin9]

Saweet

apple is just makin all the right moves to take over the digital media revolution. computers are moving towards being digital media centers so quickly that this buy whould be huge for apple (on what it gets, not what it pays). heck, this is only one of steve jobs' yearly checks. they could pay good ole steve a dollar like they did in 2000 and tivo would be thiers. LOL.

Hope it happens.