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Apple Tops Dell as Most Sought After Desktop Computers

gnasher729 said:
You are talking about Mac Pro, so you are not talking about consumers at all.

And guess what, customers have a choice. Apple is not a monopoly.

And guess what, the Mac Pro is absolutely capable. 12 cores. _Massive_, and I mean absolutely massive GPU power, which is much more important for pros nowadays than more cores (if you have tasks where 12 CPU cores are not enough, you'd probably want to use the GPUs for that). Six times thunderbolt so you can add massive amounts of external storage at basically unlimited speed (fast enough for SSD RAID).

You need to remember that you buy a Mac Pro if a quad core MacMini, or four quad core MacMinis on top of each other, are not enough. And when that isn't enough, whatever space for storage that is inside the current MacPro isn't enough either.
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See, the problem I have, and many others have with the new Mac pro is that it's very specific in it's use.

The term "pro" used to be really applicable to anyone who uses the Mac pro in any means of Professional use. From the media producers to sys admins and other professional uses.

I do database admin. 2 x workstation grade GPU's is completely and utterly a waste for me. More CPU cores are infinitely more usable and flexible for database work than high end GPU's.

Apple is giving you NO options in regards to GPU/CPU combinations.

Then we move on to storage. While I agree, that the argument over the internet SSD is kind of silly, since most people should NOT put their actual work on their OS drive (thats just bad form). Having no options for internal storage other than the built in SSD is cumbersome and annoyign.

My home office is tiny. its basically a little den with a small desk in it. My desktop space is a serious premium. I have 3 monitors on it. and the only space thats left is for a keyboard, mouse, speakers, and 1 dinner plate. Currently, my overlly large computer tower sits behind my desk, and is more often than not used as a footrest and foot warmer :p. The new Mac Pro has no choice but to sit on my desk. Cause it's an open top design, it cannot sit on the floor behidn the desk or out of the way. Nevermind the fact that since you will be forced to use external drive arrays, you need those on your desk as well.

The new Mac pro isn't a bad machine. it's a fanstic little design that looks really cool and will offer a lot of power for those who have use for it.

Its just.. they made it MORE usefull to LESS people with the new design and performance parts.

those who were in the market (like me) for a new home powerhouse computer, are finding thesmelves sort of out fo sorts with this thing, as it no longer a computer that can be highly customized.
 
For databases, I'd argue that more RAM is more important than having lots of CPU cores, but I agree that if it had to be more CPU cores vs GPU cores.

SSD on a server is better utilized if it's not used as the OS drive. For our SQL database server, it's used as a PCI-X superdrive storage accelerator to help cache most frequently requested materials/pages from the drive cluster.
 
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Hyper-X said:
For databases, I'd argue that more RAM is more important that having lots of cores, but I agree that if it had to be more CPU cores vs GPU cores, I'd agree with you.
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yeah. RAM is huge for me. if anyones used Progress Databases, you'll know that the two biggest performance boosting things (at least in my experience) is RAM for large shared memory segments, and disk access speed. Lots of tiny little of bits of data constantly being written to disk.

I was looking for a Mac Pro. my old quadcore AMD machine was really starting to feel slow. I could actually see bottlenecks when writing reports from my memory bandwitdh!

But when Apple announced the Mac pro in the new "trash can".. for the reasons I mentioend above, the new Mac pro is a complete non starter for me.

If they took similar hardware components. Put them in a more traditional case... heck, could even be a smaller case, but one that offerse at least 1 or 2 additional internal hard drive bays. Plus more RAM expansion. it would be better. And it would be even better if it offered consumer grade GPU's instaed of forcing you into the Pro GPUs. As I said in that post earlier. a Professional Grade GPU is completely, and utterly useless in my line of work. it's a waste of money. There's no GPU accelleration here that would pose any benefit at all. Forcing me to ONLY use a workstation class GPU, effectively makes it so if i buy a nMP , I"m spending more money on tech that i can't use.

The argument then comes "then a nMP isn't for you then". and I agree. But Apple lost a sale over this shift with this new product. instead of gaining someone who was more than willing to shift from the Windows Ecosystem based computers (build my own) to an Apple product, They have lost out on a new sale cause of the extreme niche focuse of this new product (where the old one wasn't a niche focused product).

And While i'm one person, I highly doubt i'm the only one in this situation.

As I said, it looks like Apple decided that they didnt want an "one size fits all" computer anymore and wanted to make a focused product. in this case, the nMP relaly only works for industries that can leverage the GPU's.
 
TheHateMachine said:
Someone should tell our marketing department's iMacs to stop thinking different and read mc3k's memo. Apparently they haven't because we get just as many tickets from them as when they were on Dell machines. These are "veteran" OS X users too.
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Why don't you use common sense or critical thinking.

http://www.cio.com/article/569163/Are_Macs_Really_Cheaper_To_Manage_Than_PCs_

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bawbac said:
Show me proof of higher productivity in a business use, not artistic usage.
A computer is a computer in the business/industry world but reliability & flexibility is key.This is were Apple fails but schools like them because it allows their students to learn massive computer troubleshooting skills on a regular basis.
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I'll show you cheaper to manage:

http://www.cio.com/article/569163/Are_Macs_Really_Cheaper_To_Manage_Than_PCs_
 
Iconoclysm said:
Please, the price difference between the new Mac Pro and actually building an equivalent machine yourself is the lowest I've ever seen. Also, Apple's competitors can't beat that price. So please tell me how the idea that it is overpriced got into your head.

--.
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Just an unsatisfied and concerned Apple customer. Chances are I have been an Apple customer longer than 90% of the people on MacRumors.

The difference between the Mac Pro and a competitive computer from another manufacturer is this: I can upgrade the other computer down the line by changing PCIe cards, graphic cards, and adding a whole host of peripherals that aren't overpriced by the addition of Thunderbolt support.

Apple is using Thunderbolt as a means of adding peripherals, but people haven't realized yet how expensive that is going to end up being. Also, I think people who really need the speed of a new Mac Pro are going to be disappointed with Thundrbolt 2 simply because it isn't even as fast as PCIe expansion, which every other professional level desktop has!

You can make the claim that the New Mac Pro is cheaper than the competition, and that might be so in the short run, but in the long-term you're going to find that once you've bought your thunderbolt devices the price will have eclipsed the competition, and then once you can't change GPUs anymore and need to upgrade to a new computer, you will have had to pay far more than having just bought from a competitor with a traditional case design with its ability to continuously upgrade components as it ages.
 
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jmpnop said:
Why would you want to take Mac Pro on a plane? Desktops aren't meant for portability, they are meant to used at a single place. You'll be better off with a Macbook Pro if you want portability.

Regardless, this is no excuse for a desktop computer to make it hard if not possible at all to upgrade CPU/GPU (and maybe storage). 256GB storage for a pro machine, really?! And I don't understand the point of keeping everything external, it creates so much clutter.


Image


If you like the idea of a non-upgradable pro machine (relative to the outgoing model) and trashcan design with clutter, this Mac Pro will certainly appeal to you.

Can't innovate anymore, my ass;):rolleyes:
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Problem is that your looking at this as a prosumer. Most Pros that I know especially with video don't store there video on internal drives. They want power to render and manipulate. All storage is external anyway whether in cloud storage or on an external array. And when editing 4k video which is the future you could not possibly have enough storage internally to contain uncompressed 4k video. There aren't hard drives big enough. Unless you want your next mac pro to be the size of a refrigerator.
As for the processor upgradability of course it is upgradeable. The Xeon E5-2697 v2 (12 core) is built with a FCLGA2011 Socket which means that Apple has that socket on the daughter card that the processor resides on. Which means it is upgradeable. The 4, 6, 8 and 12 cores all share the same socket.
I wish people would do there research before spreading F.U.D. The video cards in the new mac pro have sockets to which means that Apple could provide a path for upgrades for those too as they do for the old version of the mac pro. Currently you can buy video card upgrades for the current mac pro from apple. I would assume you could eventually do the same for the new one.
I upgraded my current mac pro from dual 2 cores to a dual quad core with no problem and it runs just fine.
A lot of people are upgrading there mac pros right now.

And as for your picture of clutter that is a joke. And some one trying to make a point with overkill.
You don't need an external audio card, the mac pro has digital audio built in, unless your doing audio editing in which case an external tb pci expansion would due. For video again Thunderbolt has the capability of two monitors per TB port or 1 4k monitor per pair, There is also an hdmi port too for output of video, and USB 3 as well. Two GB ethernet as well. I currently use thunderbolt and it is very clean. I have an external raid, and two monitors running off one TB port on my media mini server and they run well. All with 1 cable. So much for the clutter.
 
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Would you guys say that there's a price point that makes the Mac Pro a home computer? I'd love to have a Mac and be able to reboot and run games. My iMac is just not powerful enough to run modern games.
 
Redneck1089 said:
Just an unsatisfied and concerned Apple customer. Chances are I have been an Apple customer longer than 90% of the people on MacRumors.

The difference between the Mac Pro and a competitive computer from another manufacturer is this: I can upgrade the other computer down the line by changing PCIe cards, graphic cards, and adding a whole host of peripherals that aren't overpriced by the addition of Thunderbolt support.

Apple is using Thunderbolt as a means of adding peripherals, but people haven't realized yet how expensive that is going to end up being. Also, I think people who really need the speed of a new Mac Pro are going to be disappointed with Thundrbolt 2 simply because it isn't even as fast as PCIe expansion, which every other professional level desktop has!

You can make the claim that the New Mac Pro is cheaper than the competition, and that might be so in the short run, but in the long-term you're going to find that once you've bought your thunderbolt devices the price will have eclipsed the competition, and then once you can't change GPUs anymore and need to upgrade to a new computer, you will have had to pay far more than having just bought from a competitor with a traditional case design with its ability to continuously upgrade components as it ages.
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Have you priced a 12 core HP workstation? They start with a 12 core at $9000.00 with no graphics card 16 gig of memory and a dvd drive lol thats it. everything else you pay for to have installed. I have and there ridiculously priced. For a 4 core they start at $4000 again with no graphics card. And the 12 cores offered are all much slower speed than what is offered in the new mac pro. For the prices HP are charging I could buy a ton of Thunderbolt peripherals and still have cash left over.
you really need to do your research before calling others out on what you don't know.
And as for your thunderbolt being slower than pci lol do you even know what Thunderbolt is? it is pci e. It is a direct connection to the pci bus.
Also for your info the Thunderbolt ports on the new mac pro can be bound in pairs in software. providing 20GB in and 20GB out at the same time.
 
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patseguin said:
Would you guys say that there's a price point that makes the Mac Pro a home computer? I'd love to have a Mac and be able to reboot and run games. My iMac is just not powerful enough to run modern games.
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Depends on the iMac. The quad core i7 version runs any of the games out there right now with no problem. But the bottom end Mac Pro should have no problem either. But keep in mind the FirePro GL GPUs are built to run workstation software like cad and huge file 3d manipulation. Consumer GPUs are faster at some things like gaming.
Having said that I don't think the GPU's in the new mac pro would have any issues running any game out right now.
 
I own both quality Dells and Mac's I like them both for different reasons. I like the Dell because it's more flexible, I like the Mac for the ecosystem it lives in.

If I was forced to choose for the professional world I choose Dell, at home it's Mac all the way.
 
Mechanic said:
Have you priced a 12 core HP workstation? They start with a 12 core at $9000.00 with no graphics card 16 gig of memory and a dvd drive lol thats it. everything else you pay for to have installed. I have and there ridiculously priced. For a 4 core they start at $4000 again with no graphics card. And the 12 cores offered are all much slower speed than what is offered in the new mac pro. For the prices HP are charging I could buy a ton of Thunderbolt peripherals and still have cash left over.
you really need to do your research before calling others out on what you don't know.
And as for your thunderbolt being slower than pci lol do you even know what Thunderbolt is? it is pci e. It is a direct connection to the pci bus.
Also for your info the Thunderbolt ports on the new mac pro can be bound in pairs in software. providing 20GB in and 20GB out at the same time.
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Do you even know what thunderbolt is? It may be part of the PCIe system, but it is still a bottleneck limiting the speed of data transfers substantially. 20GB in and out pales in comparison to plugging something directly in the PCIe port, and that is only theoretical speed too, which will most likely never be achieved. Go talk to MacVidCards in the Mac Pro section of the forum. He will school you and then wipe the floor with your ignorance.
 
kildjean said:
If you want a portable "desktop" that you can take on a plane, there is this nifty thing called a.... wait for it... wait for it... lap.... wait for it... top. Laptop.

I don't know what kind of work you do, that you need to travel with your desktop on a plane, but where I work we have given all the news editors Retina Macbook Pro 15" with 16gb ram and 500 SSD. Our editors edit the news segments on the fly...

I was given a choice between a Windows PC and a Mac. I chose a macbook pro (same config as above) to do my work, which is application package deployment. I run a Windows 8.1 VM for all my windows imaging work and I run OS X for the rest of my work, and I have a really good performance building images.

Maybe you need to hire a consultant to recommend you better workflows my friend.
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Just because you can do YOUR work on a laptop doesn't mean everyone can. What you do is easy for a laptop. I play ultra-high def movies for live stage shows. My tricked out Macbook Pros can't quite smoothly handle a 7 gig movie playing continuously for 20 minutes and then another one for another 10 minutes, etc. so I need a MacPro level computer to be confident nothing will go wrong. AND, I often have to edit these movies before show day so I need power to create and render new movies in my hotel room. Recognize that people have different needs than you. I'm excited to be able to carry two of these with me on the road and have some power on the road!
 
mc3k said:
I'll show you cheaper to manage:

http://www.cio.com/article/569163/Are_Macs_Really_Cheaper_To_Manage_Than_PCs_
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That article is such a broad stroke with no details to back up their claims.
It doesn't even detail what the end user is using the computer for or what issues are encountered with PC's vs Mac's to justify the "cheaper to manage" statement.

Remember, you can take a PC and lock it down like a Mac with policies if issues are users altering the flexible settings.
You can't take a Mac and make it flexible.
With a Mac, it's Apple's way or the highway.

There also might be hidden costs when managing Macs, warns Oltsik. "In the past, you generally needed specialized tools to manage Macs," he says. "If this is the case, then you will have redundant tasks and management systems. Another issue is skills, as you may need to hire or train a PC administrator on the Mac platform. A Mac administrator may cost more than a PC administrator."
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bawbac said:
That article is such a broad stroke with no details to back up their claims.
It doesn't even detail what the end user is using the computer for or what issues are encountered with PC's vs Mac's to justify the "cheaper to manage" statement.

Remember, you can take a PC and lock it down like a Mac with policies if issues are users altering the flexible settings.
You can't take a Mac and make it flexible.
With a Mac, it's Apple's way or the highway.
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it was a bad article with no actual facts to back it up.

"oh yeah, macs are cheaper to operate cause we spend less time IT supporting it" was the firs 95%.

but the last paragraph or two outline some serious and major drawbacks to moving to Apple in the Corporate environment.

Apple computers might work in Offices and places that use basic filesharing as their corporate back end.

But start throwing in advance user level security. Proprietery enterprise platforms and the real nit and gritty and Apple computers have a very hard time keeping up in modern Corporate workforce.

But thats not a problem here. this particular news article was talking about end level consumers. Yes, Apples might be more saught after as a premium product in the end user consumer space. But if that doesn't translate into more sales, it's just a number.

its like me saying "sure, I want an ipad, ipod and iphone, cause they're some of the best devices out there..." but not actually buying them anyways because well, they dont' actually have the featureset i'm looking for.

Desire and Want is great, but unless it can be translated into sales, the statistic itself is completely useless.
 
9000 said:
Why would you need a Mac Pro for web development? Would a MacBook Pro not work?
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I probably won't go that route, but I'm running a VM and today it's really been slaying my MBPr. It's a possibility as I'd use more processing power. The iMacs don't provide much performance increase at all compared to the MBPr. Shame the Xeon's don't offer much faster single threaded performance compared to the i7s.

Regardless of my situation, I think not everyone needs heaps of internal HDD bays, so why make them standard?
 
laserbeam273 said:
Regardless of my situation, I think not everyone needs heaps of internal HDD bays, so why make them standard?
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So all those people who do need them don't have to connect a bunch of clunky and costly Thunderbolt external enclosures. At this point, Apple does not have a single Mac with easily swappable HDD bays. Maybe they could at least give it a couple of 2.5" slots?

But your RMBP should work with a VM... or are you doing really heavy stuff in it?
 
YMark said:
Your friends probably bought iMacs after trying to use that TURD Windows 8 that Microsoft released. If that doesn't drive someone to switch OSs, nothing will.
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no i dont think they are that much into computers to notice that, i think they just turned by the wind as apple is hip right now.

i guess this is were apple makes most money with, i started to give apple a chance when i got the mid '10 macbookpro because everybody said its so much better for video and picture editing.
in my opinion it only excels for the magic trackpad, working with both...trackpad (for skidding over a zoomed image) and at the same time operate the brush with the mouse is simply amazing!

and even though osx has its flaws, its definetely in some way the better OS
 
mc3k said:
Why don't you use common sense or critical thinking.

http://www.cio.com/article/569163/Are_Macs_Really_Cheaper_To_Manage_Than_PCs_

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I'll show you cheaper to manage:

http://www.cio.com/article/569163/Are_Macs_Really_Cheaper_To_Manage_Than_PCs_
Click to expand...


You can link your old articles all you want, from a group that sells enterprise management software for Apple products too! Could possibly be no agenda there right? Can we have access to the raw data they came up with nearly 4 years ago? Use some common sense or critical thinking.

I'll just rely on my last 2 years of experience of dealing with macs and the problems that have cropped up instead.

Renzatic said:
Do you really think a 12-core Mac Pro is gonna cost $3000?
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If he does he is delusional considering the E5-2697 costs nearly $3000...

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819116925
 
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TheHateMachine said:
You can link your old articles all you want, from a group that sells enterprise management software for Apple products too! Could possibly be no agenda there right? Can we have access to the raw data they came up with nearly 4 years ago? Use some common sense or critical thinking.

I'll just rely on my last 2 years of experience of dealing with macs and the problems that have cropped up instead.



If he does he is delusional considering the E5-2697 costs nearly $3000...

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819116925
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Lol...yes...please rely on your subjective experience. Use some common sense please when you're replying. I'll rely on my last 12 years of experience dealing with macs and PCs in a fortune 500 company with tens of thousands of deployed devices and actual metrics. Macs have proven to have much lower support costs especially in the enterprise.
 
TheHateMachine said:
If he does he is delusional considering the E5-2697 costs nearly $3000...
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Yup. The one thing we can all say for a fact is that the new Mac Pro won't be any cheaper than a PC equivalent. A 12 core machine with 16+ GB ram will cost, at least, $11,000. About the same as the Z-series he pointed to, though with the cost of the GPU and drives added.

As with the previous Pros, it'll be priced somewhat competitively, but it won't be cheap. You won't be getting the fastest computer on the market for $3000, that's for sure.
 
mc3k said:
Lol...yes...please rely on your subjective experience. Use some common sense please when you're replying. I'll rely on my last 12 years of experience dealing with macs and PCs in a fortune 500 company with tens of thousands of deployed devices and actual metrics. Macs have proven to have much lower support costs especially in the enterprise.
Click to expand...

Well I see you cannot refute my main point in my reply. Nice talking to you.
 
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