Apple Tracks Who You Contact on Messages, Stores Logs for 30 Days

[maxsix]

I keep iMessage turned off. So all my texts are sent through the carrier.

Hopefully straight to the carrier, without Apple involvement.

iMessage is primarily a tool to further meet Apple's ongoing priority of "Capturing and Locking In Customers".

Standard SMS Text messages are my choice from either my Android or iOS smartphones, these travel fast and effectively all over the globe. My ego doesn't get a boost from sending a message in the little blue bubble.

The masters of the proprietary products they sell, no one captures customers better than Apple. A very clever company, they create unique compelling labels for things like "lightning" connectors, "airport" WiFi, "thunderbolt" ports and on and on it goes.

It's quite the accomplishment really, kudos to them they've built an empire from our wallets.

 

[mildocjr]

What's so great about this is that Microsoft has been doing this for years and I guess it's expected because no one says anything. For instance I can go back since Day 0 of Exchange and figure out who the first email was sent from to who, the exact millisecond, and the subject of the email. If I looked hard enough I could even pull the contents of that email. Apple is just logging date time stamps and IP addresses. Probably for iMessage diagnostics on their end. You can't fix something if you have nothing to go on. Lighten up people. It's not like they are selling your data to every advertiser in the world (/cough Microsoft /cough Google)

 

[deany]

Take off the tinfoil.

Do you patronise in the real world or only when hiding behind a computer screen?

 

[RDeckard]

Busted.

Totally BUSTED!!!

Wait, busted for what???

 

[69Mustang]

It's not like they are selling your data to every advertiser in the world (/cough Microsoft /cough Google)

Dang it man. We are 4 pages into the thread. I was hoping we would make it to at least 6 or 7 before someone brought this tired trope out. There's always hope in the next thread about privacy.

 

[sudo1996]

No better than Google, nor any other phone company to begin with.

Again, since your data is going through a third party, they are not protected by the 4th Amendment when it comes to needing a warrant for search. All that is needed is a subpoena by a clerk of the court (and by default, any lawyer is a clerk of the court).

All of this was mentioned in the following thread, 3 years ago.

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/your-personal-data-versus-the-4th-amendment.1649516/

This isn't Apple's fault. This isn't Google's fault. This isn't any Telco's fault. The fault of this lies in how the 4th Amendment is applied, and that it does not cover 3rd parties in charge of handling your data.

BL.

Ooooor someone could finally make a messaging system with an open-source client that uses end-to-end encryption and forces users to manually exchange public keys. 4th Amendment or not, nobody can decrypt it.

Or, think about it another way: Even with insecure messaging clients, people could manually encrypt/decrypt everything on each end.

 

[flyinmac]

Yeah, I'm sure your tactic is secure.

In this scenario, the carriers actually record your actual text message and can hand that over to authorities. Apple doesn't log actual iMessage content. However, if you use iCloud Backup, then Apple will have whatever iMessages are on your phone, and they can/will hand those over if summoned.

Scotland Yard, MI5 and the FBI GCHQ and NSA also regularly monitor all messages on these Macrumors forums.

They are particularly interested in the people who have privacy concerns as they are usually the same people with things to hide.

Quick close your Macrumors account and go hide under the staircase...

Uh, yeah, because that's definitely more secure.

Lol. I have no concerns.

Funny how everyone assumed my preferred technique was to avoid invasion of privacy.

My reason for avoiding Apple's servers is simply to maintain the ease of moving my life between phones, manufacturers, and carriers. I don't want Apple involved in my texting. As we know, it complicates things.

Like having to disable before moving to another phone. We remember the fiasco when the first round of adopters switched over to Android and all their texts went undelivered after moving to Android.

I did accidentally have iMessage turned on once by an iOS update. I then texted someone without realizing iMessage has been enabled.

When I realized that iMessage was enabled, I disabled it again. And then I was unable to text that person again until I deleted our message history. Only after deleting our conversation was I able to text them again (because that conversation had a mixture of cellular and iMessage correspondence).

So, when I say hopefully my method avoids Apple's involvement altogether, I mean it from my perspective of I want the simplicity of avoiding going outside my cellular connection.

You can put your assumptions aside.

And deany, I find your response to be offensive and I could report you as such. But I'm not going to. Someone else may, that's up to them. But I'll leave it as a reminder that you should never assume that someone is paranoid, or treat them as such (referencing your comments to go hide under the stairs) just because they choose not to use a method you like.

We are all here to discuss and have a good time. Degrading each other is not acceptable.

As for the rest of you, I can appreciate that some view this as a privacy concern, and respond as such. For me it's a functional concern. I don't want my texts touching Apple's servers at all. Hopefully my method is successful in avoiding that.

 

[sudo1996]

Now that I think about it, it's difficult for Apple to not know who you're contacting. I mean, the system has to know where to deliver a message. Send something to "sudo1996@berkeley.edu," and whose message box does that go into? There are ways to solve that, but they aren't trivial.

 

[flyinmac]

iMessage is primarily a tool to further meet Apple's ongoing priority of "Capturing and Locking In Customers".

Standard SMS Text messages are my choice from either my Android or iOS smartphones, these travel fast and effectively all over the globe. My ego doesn't get a boost from sending a message in the little blue bubble.

The masters of the proprietary products they sell, no one captures customers better than Apple. A very clever company, they create unique compelling labels for things like "lightning" connectors, "airport" WiFi, "thunderbolt" ports and on and on it goes.

It's quite the accomplishment really, kudos to them they've built an empire from our wallets.

Yes, iMessage is very well targeted at locking customers into the Apple ecosystem.

And therefore wise to avoid if you like being able to easily move between phone manufacturers.

 

[bradl]

Ooooor someone could finally make a messaging system with an open-source client that uses end-to-end encryption and forces users to manually exchange public keys. 4th Amendment or not, nobody can decrypt it.

Or, think about it another way: Even with insecure messaging clients, people could manually encrypt/decrypt everything on each end.

The underlying issue would still exist.

Even with said open-source client, and with keys exchanged, some entity has to run said client that those messages would need to go through. That entity would be the third party, which would still be subject to subpoena for any data (metadata or otherwise) by a clerk of the court.

At that point, the issue isn't the tools used, but the actual circumvention of the 4th Amendment. It isn't necessarily a loophole, but the fact that (the spirit and/or implementation of) the 4th Amendment hasn't grown with the use of today's technologies, including use of the data created.

BL.

 

[maxsix]

Yes, iMessage is very well targeted at locking customers into the Apple ecosystem.

And therefore wise to avoid if you like being able to easily move between phone manufacturers.

The Apple iMessage Trap:

"Now that the issue has reached the courts, I guess it’s time we understand a major flaw in Apple’s iMessage system so that you don’t end up in a message limbo where you don’t get any message from your iPhone-toting friends.

You just switched from an old iPhone to an Android phone (or a new iPhone). And suddenly, none of your iPhone-wielding friends are able to message you. "





https://www.igeeksblog.com/not-getting-texts-switching-iphone-android-heres-whats-wrong/

 

[oneMadRssn]

If you aren't dong anything shady then there is no issue anyway.

That statement is just plain wrong. I'm not doing anything shady, but that doesn't mean it's ok for anyone to know everything about me.

 

[chr1s60]

I would pay to use a service that would go out of its way to piss of law enforcement.

I hope you have that same attitude should you ever feel the need to contact them for help.

 

[GeneralChang]

Dang it man. We are 4 pages into the thread. I was hoping we would make it to at least 6 or 7 before someone brought this tired trope out. There's always hope in the next thread about privacy.

I don't want to be "that guy," but the internet must be getting to me. Because I totally read this as a challenge.
[doublepost=1475099139][/doublepost]

Lol. I have no concerns.

Funny how everyone assumed my preferred technique was to avoid invasion of privacy.

My reason for avoiding Apple's servers is simply to maintain the ease of moving my life between phones, manufacturers, and carriers. I don't want Apple involved in my texting. As we know, it complicates things.

Like having to disable before moving to another phone. We remember the fiasco when the first round of adopters switched over to Android and all their texts went undelivered after moving to Android.

I did accidentally have iMessage turned on once by an iOS update. I then texted someone without realizing iMessage has been enabled.

When I realized that iMessage was enabled, I disabled it again. And then I was unable to text that person again until I deleted our message history. Only after deleting our conversation was I able to text them again (because that conversation had a mixture of cellular and iMessage correspondence).

So, when I say hopefully my method avoids Apple's involvement altogether, I mean it from my perspective of I want the simplicity of avoiding going outside my cellular connection.

You can put your assumptions aside.

As for the rest of you, I can appreciate that some view this as a privacy concern, and respond as such. For me it's a functional concern. I don't want my texts touching Apple's servers at all. Hopefully my method is successful in avoiding that.

Ah. Okay, fine. But consider that none of this context was in your original post, and that this thread is in response to an article that is heavily tilted toward privacy concerns. So I hope you weren't surprised at the responses you got.

 

[calzon65]

How interesting ... it looks like Apple has become Big Brother compared to the purported company culture back in 1984 when they positioned themselves as "attacking" Big Brother.

 

[mildocjr]

Dang it man. We are 4 pages into the thread. I was hoping we would make it to at least 6 or 7 before someone brought this tired trope out. There's always hope in the next thread about privacy.

I know, I know, we are just too quick to judge Apple for being slightly like Microsoft and Google, guess we want them to just stay Apple

 

[indychris]

How interesting ... it looks like Apple has become Big Brother compared to the purported company culture back in 1984 when they positioned themselves as "attacking" Big Brother.

Maybe Tim can come up with some new marketing phrase, like maybe...

* Think Convergent *

 

[deany]

Lol. I have no concerns.

Funny how everyone assumed my preferred technique was to avoid invasion of privacy.

My reason for avoiding Apple's servers is simply to maintain the ease of moving my life between phones, manufacturers, and carriers. I don't want Apple involved in my texting. As we know, it complicates things.

Like having to disable before moving to another phone. We remember the fiasco when the first round of adopters switched over to Android and all their texts went undelivered after moving to Android.

I did accidentally have iMessage turned on once by an iOS update. I then texted someone without realizing iMessage has been enabled.

When I realized that iMessage was enabled, I disabled it again. And then I was unable to text that person again until I deleted our message history. Only after deleting our conversation was I able to text them again (because that conversation had a mixture of cellular and iMessage correspondence).

So, when I say hopefully my method avoids Apple's involvement altogether, I mean it from my perspective of I want the simplicity of avoiding going outside my cellular connection.

You can put your assumptions aside.

And deany, I find your response to be offensive and I could report you as such. But I'm not going to. Someone else may, that's up to them. But I'll leave it as a reminder that you should never assume that someone is paranoid, or treat them as such (referencing your comments to go hide under the stairs) just because they choose not to use a method you like.

We are all here to discuss and have a good time. Degrading each other is not acceptable.

As for the rest of you, I can appreciate that some view this as a privacy concern, and respond as such. For me it's a functional concern. I don't want my texts touching Apple's servers at all. Hopefully my method is successful in avoiding that.

You start your post with LOL - obviously not towards my post.
But where is your sense of humour? (I'm a Brit) it wasn't meant to be personal!!! it was in jest for goodness sake!
The 'hide under the stairs' was from the 'knock on the door' ..... that will never happen.

ps
which post was the LOL for - I honestly thought it was mine then I read your 'shocking' blue text?

 

[osaga]

seems

 

[Swift]

Frankly, the SMS system as a whole does that. How far you can go after finding when and from where these messages came is up to the encryption standard. The message is green because it's gone through SMS, which is old tech and can be cracked. Blue routes through iCloud and e-mail addresses. It is more secure than SMS.

And here's another question: I'd say encryption is very important for the consumer so you can have a normal sex life, a secure life with your money, and just basic privacy. What the whole idea of a court order gives an exception to the police to be able to see if deemed reasonable in a criminal investigation. The place to restrict police powers getting too broad is in Congress and in the Courts. Not in the personal computing implement business. A completely uncrackable transmission likely cannot be made. Sooner or later, the network gets smarter, and can see through older encryptions.
[doublepost=1475102335][/doublepost]

this was my concern-

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/may/04/telephone-calls-recorded-fbi-boston

"All of that stuff" - meaning every telephone conversation Americans have with one another on US soil, with or without a search warrant - "is being captured as we speak".

Only one way to avoid that. Make all phone calls free. Then the telcos will insist they don't have to keep the records. They keep the time and place, the numbers texted, chiefly for billing. And as far as I know, the audio recordings of calls aren't kept. The metadata is.

 

[flyinmac]

The Apple iMessage Trap:

"Now that the issue has reached the courts, I guess it’s time we understand a major flaw in Apple’s iMessage system so that you don’t end up in a message limbo where you don’t get any message from your iPhone-toting friends.

You just switched from an old iPhone to an Android phone (or a new iPhone). And suddenly, none of your iPhone-wielding friends are able to message you. "





https://www.igeeksblog.com/not-getting-texts-switching-iphone-android-heres-whats-wrong/

Yep, and exactly part of the reason I won't dare to enable iMessage. Sure, they give us a "tool", but why should I want to mess with that every time, and hope it actually works.

I don't want to be "that guy," but the internet must be getting to me. Because I totally read this as a challenge.
[doublepost=1475099139][/doublepost]
Ah. Okay, fine. But consider that none of this context was in your original post, and that this thread is in response to an article that is heavily tilted toward privacy concerns. So I hope you weren't surprised at the responses you got.

Granted... But, also was hardly a statement claiming anything about one method being more secure than the other.

You start your post with LOL - obviously not towards my post.
But where is your sense of humour? (I'm a Brit) it wasn't meant to be personal!!! it was in jest for goodness sake!
The 'hide under the stairs' was from the 'knock on the door' ..... that will never happen.

ps
which post was the LOL for - I honestly thought it was mine then I read your 'shocking' blue text?

Alright... Accepted.
[doublepost=1475102583][/doublepost]

Frankly, the SMS system as a whole does that. How far you can go after finding when and from where these messages came is up to the encryption standard. The message is green because it's gone through SMS, which is old tech and can be cracked. Blue routes through iCloud and e-mail addresses. It is more secure than SMS.

And here's another question: I'd say encryption is very important for the consumer so you can have a normal sex life, a secure life with your money, and just basic privacy. What the whole idea of a court order gives an exception to the police to be able to see if deemed reasonable in a criminal investigation. The place to restrict police powers getting too broad is in Congress and in the Courts. Not in the personal computing implement business. A completely uncrackable transmission likely cannot be made. Sooner or later, the network gets smarter, and can see through older encryptions.
[doublepost=1475102335][/doublepost]

Only one way to avoid that. Make all phone calls free. Then the telcos will insist they don't have to keep the records. They keep the time and place, the numbers texted, chiefly for billing. And as far as I know, the audio recordings of calls aren't kept. The metadata is.

That's a possible solution. Charge simply to have a phone connection. But, the service is free, you're only paying to connect to the line. Would be interesting to see how that would work out.

 

[Deelron]

There it is boys and girls, the expert apologists have spoken... Nothing to be concerned about, Apple's here to keep you safe.

Either that or any client that combined SMS and another service would have to check somehow if the intended recipient had that service before sending it.

But hey, keep tilting at windmills.

 

[coolfactor]

what purpose do the logs serve outside of being able to supply this information to law inforcement? Could apple just encrypt the logs as well?

It's Apple's servers that need to use the logs for the purpose of establishing the correct type of connection between sender and receiver. I suspect that it's kept for 30 days to avoid having to query against the database every time you try to contact the same recipient from a different device that you own.

No issue here. Sometimes people send a text and the message has to sit there until the recipient's phone is on as well. Either way, the content is secure and that's what we all care about. The rest is the equivalent of the list of who you called that's on any phone bill.

Yup.

Busted.

Nope.
[doublepost=1475103536][/doublepost]MacRumors as recorded your IP address when you read this message. If you really care about that, use a VPN.

 

[ConnYoungy]

Literally no different from how phone networks know who you text or called from you bill...

 

[flyinmac]

It's Apple's servers that need to use the logs for the purpose of establishing the correct type of connection between sender and receiver. I suspect that it's kept for 30 days to avoid having to query against the database every time you try to contact the same recipient from a different device that you own.



Yup.



Nope.
[doublepost=1475103536][/doublepost]MacRumors as recorded your IP address when you read this message. If you really care about that, use a VPN.

Hmm.... a VPN with a gateway in Australia that is in turn run through another gateway in Japan, which hits a VPN tunnel to Iran, which hits a DNS in Germany, which then goes to Africa, and then on to Russia, and finally through China, and then post all you want. Anything bad will get blamed on China, and in proving their innocence, they'll implicate Russia, who will implicate Africa, and then Germany. We could start a war with words. Wait... that's starting to sound like politics, better move this over to the politics and religion area.

World War 3, all started courtesy of a VPN tunnel to MacRumors. Eventually, Apple takes the fall for community conspiracy. Surely this will bolster Samsung sales somehow.

Looks around the room.... TURN YOUR KEY... NOW.... Finger on the button, and away we go. Looks like 4th of July in September.