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If you consider iOS doesn't take away any of your freedom, then of course you cannot understand what I said. Now you can have wishful thinking that this Bad Sur thing is only an aesthetic change that won't limit your freedom as iOS does... well... I wouldn't keep that hope, because in Apple, aesthetics follows function.
Ok, absolutely it is understood that iOS and iPadOS are locked down in the sense that it is hard to install any kind of software that doesn’t come from the App Store. That’s quite clearly not what I wrote at all. But what about yesterday gave you the impression that macOS Big Sur contains any of those kinds of limitations? Quite the opposite IMO? They showed off 3rd party apps that are not on the Mac App Store at all and tools for running non-Mac OS’s, etc.?
 
What "engineering" Application are you referring to [...]
Why do you say "engineering" instead of engineering? Do you imply engineering becomes "engineering" when they don't support MacOS or what?

An incomplete of engineering applications which I know some colleagues of mine use through BootCamp in their Macs:

-ANSYS
-SAP2000
-Autodesk Revit
-Autodesk Robot Structural Analysis Professional
-Tekla Structures
-Dlubal
-CYPECAD
-NEMETSCHEK ALLPLAN
-Autodesk Advance Steel
(...and this would be just a beginning, there's plenty of engineering applications not supported in MacOS, and even with no alternatives in many engineering areas).

and what makes you think that MacOS 11 will behave as iOS, in terms of user freedom, whatever that is?
"Whatever that is?" If you don't know what part of freedom you lose in Android and iOS, there's no point in me answering this question.
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Ok, absolutely it is understood that iOS and iPadOS are locked down in the sense that it is hard to install any kind of software that doesn’t come from the App Store. That’s quite clearly not what I wrote at all. But what about yesterday gave you the impression that macOS Big Sur contains any of those kinds of limitations? Quite the opposite IMO? They showed off 3rd party apps that are not on the Mac App Store at all and tools for running non-Mac OS’s, etc.?
Well, as I said, in Apple, aesthetics follows function (which is very good, except when you see iOS aesthetics, because it means you'll be getting iOS functionality --Apple is very sincere in this point). If you don't believe it, you can remember that they are introducing nagging for MacOS updates recently. Anyway, if you like this thing, then you probably love iOS, which together with Android are for me the worst products in Earth at this time and to be avoided at all costs, so there's no point in argument things that we don't agree with from the beginning...
 
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I'm not investing in something Apple is clearly transitioning away from. If I had bought a Mac in the last year, I wouldn't be very worried. But I wouldn't buy one now.

The obsolescence for macOS users will not strictly be in terms of the processor architecture, but with battery consumption in laptops. The new Samsung Book S, built with Snapdragon ARM running Win10 ARM, lasts 18 hours.
 
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Psh I rely on Bootcamp too for running Windows for work, and I'm not all that worried. Did you just straight up miss the part where they talked about virtualization? They even demoed running Linux using Parallels, which is basically just Bootcamp without having to restart your machine. Apple knows how vital Bootcamp is and has been for many of their Mac users. I'm not a betting man but even I would make the bet that nothing will happen to that functionality.

I assume that that is Linux compiled for ARM - not x86 instruction set virtualisation. Windows 10 (full desktop) with work applications (CadStar, Altium Designer, FEM simulators etc) does not exist for ARM - AFAIK.
Running x86 on ARM is going to take a huge performance hit.
 
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A few things,

  • Performance
    • Why would apple continue to be chained to intel's increasingly frustrating chip design?
    • Intels chips have been thermally limited for years now
    • Trade off between power/performance is getting worse with intel
  • Bootcamp support
    • This is probably the reason they are still going to release intel based macs, until they work out Bootcamp
    • Apple knows a lot of users use bootcamp and if they don't eventually support this they will lose customers
  • Your recently purchased MCP is not obsolete
    • How often do you upgrade your machine? This transition will take 5 years to fully complete
All in all this is a smart move for apple and they have probably had this in the works for a LONG time after seeing the gains they made with ARM on mobile, as long as they handle the transition well....
Absolutely - I mean good ol’ Phil was on stage at the release of the A7 touting the 64-bit desktop class CPU that it was. They were already pretty much going for it then! This has been a long time coming.
 
That's not how it works. If you design for low power consumption than you can increase the clock rate when you don't care about power consumption. If you design for high power consumption, then reducing the clock rate to reduce power consumption doesn't work nearly as well.

This is not true - processes are not necessarily that scalable.
 
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Windows 10 (full desktop) does not exist for ARM - AFAIK.

Win10 for ARM definitely exists. Non-ARM apps on Win10 ARM are emulated. So, it's possible we could get Bootcamp as well as VM support through VMware/Parallels.

 
Probably that's also the last time I posted with this haste. Nothing this exciting has happened about Apple in the last 10 years.
Exactly - whether you are super excited, super terrified, super happy or super angry, this is by far the most exciting time in over a decade to be an Apple enthusiast (whether that means a supporting enthusiast or a curmudgeon enthusiast for you in particular 🤣)
 
A couple of things came to mind:

1. I suppose this means that eventually there will come a day when my MacBook Pro 2018 will no longer be able to run the latest software, and I will be stuck with the latest version of macOS and other apps that run on Intel chips.

2. This is definitely gong to have a significant impact on the used Mac market. Once the “Apple Silicon” models are released, who would want an Intel model? It’s kind of like buying a PowerPC Mac these days, which of course you cannot buy new. I foresee a massive flurry of used Intel Macs deluging the market in the next few years... and then their value will quickly drop like a lead weight.

Of course, eventual obsolescence is a given, especially when it comes to Apple hardware... but when the core hardware architecture of the products change, the value of those older Macs remains only for those who don't mind running the older software.
 
A free Mac Mini?
If you are a developer, and probably fill out a form telling Apple why you need one, you can rent a MacMini with ARM processor for a year for $500.
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That mac mini running a A12Z will probably trounce the current mini just because of the graphics (pounding Intel graphics into dust).
The current MacMini comes with either quad core or six core Intel processors, the A12Z is basically the current iPad. I expect it to slightly beat the quad core, and come reasonably close to the six core MacMini, but not trounce it.

You'll have to wait for the next generation for that, probably with six or eight fast cores. That should beat anything except the high end iMac Pro and the Mac Pro.
 
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I'm not questioning the 64bit part.

Will these chips be AArch64 compliant? or will it be easy to work with other AArch64 binaries? or if AArch64 binaries can be built from code, can Apple Silicon (64bit) binaries be compiled from that same code?
My guess would be that technically yes, Apple Silicon will be aarch64 compatible in the sense that they would be able to execute all ARM ISA instructions used. But probably, most likely, not the other way around as I suspect Apple is using their own custom extended instruction sets for their custom designed chips.

However as far as binaries go - I wouldn‘t be counting on that at all. I guess the answer would probably be...it depends?
 
The choice of processors in 2021 could present a challenge for consumers making purchase decisions.
Not at all. ARM will be it. There will probably not even a choice, except for Macs costing $5,000 and more.
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It can't be simple virtualization. They carefully avoided the topic of whether or not that Linux distro was running a native ARM version or if it was emulating X86. If they wanted to show Windows apps running, they would have.
They clearly said the were running an Intel Linux distro in a VM, using Rosetta to translate code on the fly.
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How the hell did they run Tomb Raider for the INTEL MAC on an iPad SoC that fluently? That looks insane.

Again, they are running an emulated game, which is already a taxing game on Mac chips, on an iPad SoC???!??!!?!?
A lot of the code for a game like Tomb Raider will be calls to the Metal graphics library, and that code will either run on the graphics hardware, or it is OS code that runs native, in that case ARM. And the iPad chips are bloody fast.
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Interesting. Some of us devs still need Windows for work, because that's how we're making a living. I wonder if we should carry 2 laptops now, or buy a MacBook while it's still Intel. Not sure.
It seems there are plenty of people here in tears because their Mac is suddenly obsolete, so you should be able to get one on eBay really cheap. (No, that's me being sarcastic). Wait until you need a new Mac.
 
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They clearly said the were running an Intel Linux distro in a VM, using Rosetta to translate code on the fly.

Untrue. They did not say "Intel." You conflated a few of the announcements.

Now, as Craig mentioned, many of our users rely on apps from other environments. So let me bring up a Linux VM in Parallels Desktop. You can see the graphical user interface designed for Linux here. But, of course, many developers like to use Linux for hosting servers. So let me dive down to the command line and launch in Apache Web Server. And now I can simply bring up Safari and browse the website of the server I just launched in the Linux VM.
 
Nobody knows how fast these chips are going to be, but since Apple are planning on transitioning their entire line up to them, it doesn’t take a genius to work out that they are going to be as powerful as intel’s current offerings, while being better optimised for the software (thus ending up
being much more efficient/faster), all the while, running cooler.

It’s difficult to say this after the many issues Apple have created for themselves over the last decade (keyboards, short display cables, faulty GPUs and even worse, that MacBook Air without a heat pipe connected to the fan) but all that said, I don’t think they are stupid, and this can, and I imagine will, be a great thing for most of us, even if we can’t see it now.
 
For the next 2 years we can either carry on running our Intel Macs and accept that software might not get updated for it (or new software will simply not run), or we can get a new ARM Mac and accept that most software will run under Rosetta emulation.
For the next two years nobody wins.
 
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So now Macs are running on arm an iPhone is basically a mini Mac. Imagine an iPhone you could plug into a monitor that would run full Mac applications. I know other companies have tried it but Apple has the hardware and software to pull it off proper.
 
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For the next two years nobody wins.

Wrong!

timsmile.jpeg
 
If you consider iOS doesn't take away any of your freedom, then of course you cannot understand what I said. Now you can have wishful thinking that this Bad Sur thing is only an aesthetic change that won't limit your freedom as iOS does... well... I wouldn't keep that hope, because in Apple, aesthetics follows function.

Yeah, I can have any app I want, as long as Apple says it's ok. Such freedom.
 
This is the height of arrogance.

i applauded the move from Motorola chips to Intel, because it brought Macs into the main stream.

i won’t be moving my fleet of Macs away from Intel / AMD chips. I will now need to research alternatives.

Apple have a wealth of software and products that I have enjoyed for many, many years. But I’m not a lemming and will not follow blindly over the cliff.

I‘m dismayed at the arrogance and short sightedness of this decision.
 
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Even if Apple knows, they are not going to tip their hat until the hardware is officially for sale and software compiled for AMR is officially available.
They did with the PowerPC -> Intel presentation. That is what I was pointing out. That 2005 keynote they explained performance per watt, and then gave the slide comparing the two (Projected mid 2006). This time they did the same, except they never said what they expected that improvement to be. They set it up, but didn't give us the punchline. In a recent AMD presentation linked on anandtech AMD also gave more specifics on Relative Perf-Per-Watt.
 
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Without being able to run X86 Windows, the Mac footprint in the enterprise will be reduced unless Microsoft starts seriously developing Windows for ARM, which I doubt. There are many enterprise users who need to run Windows as a VM on occasion.

On the other hand, if Rosetta 2 allows Parallels and Fusion to run in X86 emulation layer, it will be possible to run Windows for X86 as a VM on the ARM Mac. The performance may be dismal, though, as it will be handled by the emulation and the virtualization layers.
 
They already have a Mac Mini powered with the A12 CPU/GPU?!? 😲😲😲
*That still shows just how powerful the A12 chip is. 👍🙂

But day**m! I did not think we would get any official word about Apple switching to Apple Silicon and phasing Intel out.
I expected this announcement at the 4Q or 3Q of 2021 TBH... but Apple has apparently been busy the past while. 😂

I am curious about the device Tim Apple mentioned would come out this year... it’d be so cool if it was that tiny 12” MacBook with an A12 or A13 CPU.
 
Without being able to run X86 Windows, the Mac footprint in the enterprise will be reduced unless Microsoft starts seriously developing Windows for ARM, which I doubt. There are many enterprise users who need to run Windows as a VM on occasion.

On the other hand, if Rosetta 2 allows Parallels and Fusion to run in X86 emulation layer, it will be possible to run Windows for X86 as a VM on the ARM Mac. The performance may be dismal, though, as it will be handled by the emulation and the virtualization layers.
Microsoft have an ARM based machine. They are also working with Apple on Office. What’s to say Microsoft aren’t already completely invested in the switch?
 
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