Apple TV and Surround Sound

[Avatar74]

Does it matter? If I'm paying $4.99 for a HD rental is it reasonable for me to expect that it's the same quality as the HD/BD DVD that I can rent for less??? I'm sure Apple will get the audio formats sorted out eventually.

I have a Denon 3808CI, look up the specs if you want to know.

Duffinator, with all due respect...

Your original question addressed, specifically, "in order for Apple to be competitive"... not "in order for Apple to cater to my personal needs which happen to be an exception to the rule."

I'm disappointed that there aren't more 24-bit Linear PCM systems out there to suit the music that I compose, record, produce, mix and master.

That being said, I realize that I am also an exception to the rule... so what I take issue with is not your concern about fidelity. I take issue simply with the phrasing of your statement with which I simply disagree. Apple is not being uncompetitive at this stage by not supporting Dolby TrueHD.

The adoption rates of HDTV sets are higher than the adoption rates of HD surround systems at this stage in the game and will probably remain so for a few years.

However, ten years from now that statement might be more accurate... even though I will disagree with you from a technical standpoint as to the usefulness of Dolby TrueHD and Dolby Digital Plus in the home unless you have a private theater the size of main room at a multiplex, with acoustics that meet THX specifications... that is, unless you paid THX $250,000 to design a starter THX-certified home theater that meets all the acoustic room specs.

 

[Avatar74]

Avatar74 ;
I respect everything you've said in thhis thread, great points and well thought out.

And yes, Apple is extremely good at matching the "real" consumer needs at price point they will pay vs packing all the "perceived needs" into devices.

With that said, I have just bought the newly released Denon AVR-4308CI for my basement Home Cinema - which has all the lossless HD audio formats, until 2 weeks ago I had "just" DD 5.1/DTS in my 7 year old Onkyo 787, which is still a decent A/V unit.
My right now basement project can be seen here:
https://forums.macrumors.com/posts/4763565/

That's great that you take an interest in home theater. Paradigm's a good set of speakers for the price, btw.

I'm curious... what are you planning to use for the screen? It appears from your notes on the image you are doing front projection because you're cutting a screen to 2.35:1.*

It doesn't appear you have enough room for 100" HD projection (my uncle had 9 feet, but needed 18, for a Barco cinema HD projector... so his carpenters built a reflector frame in the rear projection room!)... Are you planning to go LCD or plasma? My suggestion would have been a recessed wall for an LCOS display... nothing beats LCOS for the 3 C's except a Trinitron XBR cathode ray tube.

* Cut that screen wider. The actual aspect ratio of Panavision (mistakenly called "scope" as a reference to now defunct CinemaScope) is 2.40:1, not 2.35:1.... Yes, I know the DVD's all say the latter but they're referring to the cropped image with safe lines. You can have black curtains to matte accordingly, but in order to actually project the entire image, TV-safe areas and all, the screen itself has to be 2.40:1. Of course if you're watching HDTV programming it doesn't matter because most of it, much to my chagrin, is still blocked for 4:3 anyway. I had a big discussion with the exec producer of Comanche Moon (CBS) over this just yesterday.

 

[Duffinator]

Duffinator, with all due respect...

Your original question addressed, specifically, "in order for Apple to be competitive"... not "in order for Apple to cater to my personal needs which happen to be an exception to the rule."

OK so I'm an exception to the rule and being selfish here.

Then how does Apple justify the non HD downloads not having DD soundtracks? It just seems that Apple is missing the mark here. I have no doubt that in a few years downloading movies will be the dominate way we all watch movies and I look forward to it. But if Apple is developing this business model for people to watch on their TV's via ATV they need to provide the DD soundtrack and pro-logic is not even close to DD. Like I said I'm sure they will get this worked out but not including DD is a big miss in my book. I wonder how NetFlix is handling soundtracks on their download service?

 

[NightStorm]

OK so I'm an exception to the rule and being selfish here.

Then how does Apple justify the non HD downloads not having DD soundtracks? It just seems that Apple is missing the mark here. I have no doubt that in a few years downloading movies will be the dominate way we all watch movies and I look forward to it. But if Apple is developing this business model for people to watch on their TV's via ATV they need to provide the DD soundtrack and pro-logic is not even close to DD. Like I said I'm sure they will get this worked out but not including DD is a big miss in my book. I wonder how NetFlix is handling soundtracks on their download service?

I think it is simply because they do not have a way of making DD soundtracks work with iPods/iPhones (yet?), therefore they'd have to have yet another version of the same movie on a server somewhere.

 

[Avatar74]

I think it is simply because they do not have a way of making DD soundtracks work with iPods/iPhones (yet?), therefore they'd have to have yet another version of the same movie on a server somewhere.

Correct. I mentioned this somewhere earlier but the conclusion I came to was that Dolby Digital pass-through will not work with iPods, iPhones and iTunes playback at present.

In order for this to change, a hardware or software decoder must be licensed from Dolby Laboratories by Apple... extra cost not yet factored in to the price of these products/services. That may change in future iterations.

The reason this matters, to answer duffinator's question, is because Apple's research probably shows them that there are two categories of users interested in the service:

1. Home theater enthusiasts - Have AppleTV, have HDTV, have surround system... far more likely to rent HD releases than their SD counterparts. Convenience takes a backseat to fidelity for this crowd. They spend more, configure more, because they want more fidelity.

2. Casual moviegoers - Mostly don't have AppleTV, maybe/maybe not surround system, but a Mac or PC and probably an iPod, and want, more than anything, convenience. They spend less, want to configure less... they just want it to work.

Category 1 is who the HD releases target.

Category 2 is who the SD releases target.

Consequently, the SD releases cannot have Dolby Digital pass-through just yet because the file they want needs to work on all the different pieces of the iTunes ecosystem.

The two categories will never converge because as Dolby Digital and HD become standard, the AV snobs, pardon me, home theater enthusiasts, will want to set themselves further apart from the commoners... buying up UHD systems and 24-bit Dolby TrueHD surround, and whatever else the idiots at Stereophile will convince them to buy too early in the game... but again, these are fewer and far between than the masses who have basic HD or SD setups.

But, there will be some phase-in for the middle folks to start snatching up the higher end systems as they come down in price and rise in supply. This middle group is where Apple's biggest margins tend to be. They straddle the line between fidelity and convenience... watching movies on an iPod is perfectly acceptable to them on the road, and Dolby Digital is good enough for their ears (even though it's a highly compressed perceptual coding schema bested by its descendant, AAC which even the audio snobs pass off as undesirable simply because there are rarer, pricier formats to further distinguish them from the peasantry... when 24-bit becomes standard, they'll want something with bigger bragging rights).

 

[ChargerSteve]

Does it matter? If I'm paying $4.99 for a HD rental is it reasonable for me to expect that it's the same quality as the HD/BD DVD that I can rent for less???

When you rent that HD/BD for less, does someone rush to deliver it to your home and put it in your player for you? If so, then you really shouldn't consider the Apple service. If not, it's an Apples to Oranges comparison (pardon the pun).

Also, the AppleTV itself is more than just a movie player. I have not seen anyone ask if it is reasonable to expect their Blue-Ray player to play their picture slideshows, music library, podcasts, You-tube, etc. Afterall, they could get an AppleTV for less than the price of the Blue-ray player and it does all those things...

It is just a different device and service with different features, strengths and weaknesses compared to other devices and services.

 

[Avatar74]

It is just a different device and service with different features, strengths and weaknesses compared to other devices and services.

Good point. I haven't seen a convergence device like this, that's this idiotically easy to use. Sure, people talk about XBMC and the like, but they take some work to configure and their interfaces are annoyingly clunky. It's not that I am not technical... but frankly I find it much simpler to leave these things to the geniuses at Apple than setting up my own media library a-la Lucasfilm where I've got a UNIX/IRIX-scripted (Yes, they still use SGI IRIX a lot) server managing terabytes upon terabytes of video.

I like elegant solutions and AppleTV is one... I still think it's missing a few pieces but like every Apple product it's a work in progress that will get tweaked as feedback comes in. That's more than you can say for BluRay, or any Microsoft product... where does consumer consensus ever really figure into their initial design with more priority than vendor demands?

Too many cooks on the wrong side are stirring the broth of those other products... but Apple listens. Look... when people screamed about AppleTV they tweaked it rather than just giving up and inventing some other half-ass product.

Also, AppleTV's functionality is so much software driven that many changes are an update away. Where does BluRay offer this? Where does HD DVD offer this? Where does XBOX 360 offer this (without being a very knowledgeable geek and resorting to all kinds of inelegant hacks)...

There are some serious strengths in the decision to keep the conduit "dumb" and the endpoints smart. By this I mean that the desire to increase the specificity of AppleTV's functions actually decreases its value. To prioritize one function means deprioritizing others. It should be equally capable in serving all media needs... instead of having 12 slots for this card and that card, a tray for this, a button for that, an array of LEDs for everything under the sun and looking like Frankenstein's Walkman. It's got inputs, outputs and a menu... therefore, like the iPhone ostensibly, the interface can be whatever the current application needs it to be, the content can be in whatever format the software updates can decode...

In the very near future, I believe a standard will evolve where all media devices, portable and otherwise, will speak IP and be controllable by devices like AppleTV.

Fixed media are becoming rapidly obsolete... Apple knows this and knows that in 3 years time, AppleTV will need to be evolved enough to take on the onslaught of flexible, wireless nonlinear storage "media players" that will send the optical disk the way of the dodo.

As the authors of worldofends.com point out, the endpoints are where all the value is. The conduit itself needs to be as flexible, as "dumb" as possible to allow all kinds of content through it.

That is the goal of AppleTV and it's long range plan, based on product cycles, patent filings, etc. is clearly to be a two-way interactive conduit that connects ALL your digital lifestyle components... home theater, computer network, mobile digital appliances, etc. Hell, one day you'll be streaming movies to your car's entertainment system via AppleTV over a high speed wireless data network.

The comparison is Apples and oranges? Apples and lemons... if you ask me.

 

[Cave Man]

I can easily see Apple being obstinate with DD on the ATV. I think they are going to make the ATV software accept DD from downloads from the Apple servers only. They will keep the prohibition of iTunes streaming or sync a file with AC3 tracks. Thus, even if we can begin to transcode our DVDs to movie MPEG4 files with AC3 (which still remains to be seen), I suspect the ATV will continue to reject them. I hope I'm wrong, but given Apple's recent past, I wouldn't count on it.

 

[diamond.g]

I like elegant solutions and AppleTV is one... I still think it's missing a few pieces but like every Apple product it's a work in progress that will get tweaked as feedback comes in. That's more than you can say for BluRay, or any Microsoft product... where does consumer consensus ever really figure into their initial design with more priority than vendor demands?

Too many cooks on the wrong side are stirring the broth of those other products... but Apple listens. Look... when people screamed about AppleTV they tweaked it rather than just giving up and inventing some other half-ass product.

Also, AppleTV's functionality is so much software driven that many changes are an update away. Where does BluRay offer this? Where does HD DVD offer this? Where does XBOX 360 offer this (without being a very knowledgeable geek and resorting to all kinds of inelegant hacks)...

The 360 could be updated to do everything the Apple TV can do. After all the video marketplace is a relatively recent addition.

 

[Duffinator]

When you rent that HD/BD for less, does someone rush to deliver it to your home and put it in your player for you? If so, then you really shouldn't consider the Apple service. If not, it's an Apples to Oranges comparison (pardon the pun).

Also, the AppleTV itself is more than just a movie player. I have not seen anyone ask if it is reasonable to expect their Blue-Ray player to play their picture slideshows, music library, podcasts, You-tube, etc. Afterall, they could get an AppleTV for less than the price of the Blue-ray player and it does all those things...

It is just a different device and service with different features, strengths and weaknesses compared to other devices and services.

You're points are irrelevant to my arguments. If Apple wants to compete in the marketplace charging fair market prices for video rentals they should deliver what the competition does. Kind of basic business school 101. I bought my ATV without really planning on using it for movie downloads. I use it for streaming photos and music. If Apple gets the movie downloads right I'd be happy to use it and take advantage of the added convenience. I'm not dissing the ATV, I really like it and it's light years ahead of my Hauppauge Media MVP, I'm just not getting too excited about the movie downloads......yet.

 

[Superman07]

I can easily see Apple being obstinate with DD on the ATV. I think they are going to make the ATV software accept DD from downloads from the Apple servers only. They will keep the prohibition of iTunes streaming or sync a file with AC3 tracks. Thus, even if we can begin to transcode our DVDs to movie MPEG4 files with AC3 (which still remains to be seen), I suspect the ATV will continue to reject them. I hope I'm wrong, but given Apple's recent past, I wouldn't count on it.

I really really hope you're wrong no your hunch. That is the exact reason I haven't rushed out to buy one before, and the reason I will continue to wait.

 

[Avatar74]

The 360 could be updated to do everything the Apple TV can do. After all the video marketplace is a relatively recent addition.

Can a software update:

Fix high hardware failure rates?
Activate 802.11 wireless ethernet (neat trick if there's no wifi card)?
Eliminate the need for a physical fan?
Replace the 20GB drive with a 40, or the 120 with a 160?

Say what you want, but you're comparing entirely different devices.

The AppleTV does not have near the failure rate of the XBOX 360. Also, it is equipped with 802.11b/g/n standard. Also, its design incorporates an aluminum exterior that acts as a baffle to dissipate heat to the outside of the chassis without a fan in the enclosure, which is a great selling point for people who want absolute quiet in their HT setup. Fan noise even at the lowest levels is very noticeable if you have optical audio where the noise floor is inaudible.

Oh... also... can a software update reduce the price of 120GB XBOX 360 Elite from $449 to compete with the 160GB AppleTV ($329)?

 

[Cave Man]

I really really hope you're wrong no your hunch. That is the exact reason I haven't rushed out to buy one before, and the reason I will continue to wait.

I hope I'm wrong, too. As I understand it, the MP4 standard (that the ATV plays) does not have a provision for AC3 audio (DD). Thus, Apple will either have to (1) allow the ATV to play other containers (like QT on our Macs already can) or (2) deviate from the MP4 standards. I'm hoping it's just the former - seems to be the path of least resistance (and fewer future problems).

 

[Avatar74]

I can easily see Apple being obstinate with DD on the ATV. I think they are going to make the ATV software accept DD from downloads from the Apple servers only. They will keep the prohibition of iTunes streaming or sync a file with AC3 tracks. Thus, even if we can begin to transcode our DVDs to movie MPEG4 files with AC3 (which still remains to be seen), I suspect the ATV will continue to reject them. I hope I'm wrong, but given Apple's recent past, I wouldn't count on it.

This is not the issue. AppleTV isn't "rejecting" anything. It doesn't have the software present in the current iteration to enable Dolby Digital pass through. Even if it has the hardware, software needs to tell the operating system what do to with the pass through embedded in H.264.

I can speak authoritatively on this because I author certified AC-3 content that gets the seal of approval from Dolby Labs directly. I have a license agreement with them.

The real issue as to why there are going to be "restrictions" with Dolby Digital has to do more with the fact that Apple is trying to keep the SD content in one file that can be played on iPod, iPhone, iTunes, and AppleTV.

I hope I'm wrong, too. As I understand it, the MP4 standard (that the ATV plays) does not have a provision for AC3 audio (DD). Thus, Apple will either have to (1) allow the ATV to play other containers (like QT on our Macs already can) or (2) deviate from the MP4 standards. I'm hoping it's just the former - seems to be the path of least resistance (and fewer future problems).

I should clarify my earlier statements about Dolby Digital by pointing out that AppleTV will most likely NOT actually have a Dolby Digital decoder to the best of my knowledge. It doesn't need to.

It will have an updated software that can unpack the AC-3 file from the H.264 bitstream and pass it through to your receiver. Your Dolby Digital RECEIVER (or standalone surround processor, e.g. Dolby DP-564, Lexicon MC-12, etc.) does the actual decoding. That's what pass-through is.

The only reason AppleTV itself would have a Dolby Digital decoder would be if it had six analog outputs to send each channel separately. Otherwise there's no point. The AC-3 bitstream, once unpacked from the H.264 bitstream, will go straight to your receiver over the optical output and be decoded there.

 

[soLoredd]

Can a software update:

Fix high hardware failure rates?
Activate 802.11 wireless ethernet (neat trick if there's no wifi card)?
Eliminate the need for a physical fan?
Replace the 20GB drive with a 40, or the 120 with a 160?

Say what you want, but you're comparing entirely different devices.

The AppleTV does not have near the failure rate of the XBOX 360. Also, it is equipped with 802.11b/g/n standard. Also, its design incorporates an aluminum exterior that acts as a baffle to dissipate heat to the outside of the chassis without a fan in the enclosure, which is a great selling point for people who want absolute quiet in their HT setup. Fan noise even at the lowest levels is very noticeable if you have optical audio where the noise floor is inaudible.

Oh... also... can a software update reduce the price of 120GB XBOX 360 Elite from $449 to compete with the 160GB AppleTV ($329)?

Can the TV play BioShock, Call of Duty 4, or Halo 3?

The comparisons are stupid and you said yourself they are entirely different. But, then you go and list all these comparisons. Brilliant.

What I find major is the lack of DVD player. Say what you want, but having to put my DVDs into my computer, re-encode them, then sync with the TV sucks for time. One thing the 360 benefits from is the DVD player...I'm not going to buy another version of my movies just so I can watch it on the TV.

 

[diamond.g]

Can a software update:

Fix high hardware failure rates?
Activate 802.11 wireless ethernet (neat trick if there's no wifi card)?
Eliminate the need for a physical fan?
Replace the 20GB drive with a 40, or the 120 with a 160?

Say what you want, but you're comparing entirely different devices.

The AppleTV does not have near the failure rate of the XBOX 360. Also, it is equipped with 802.11b/g/n standard. Also, its design incorporates an aluminum exterior that acts as a baffle to dissipate heat to the outside of the chassis without a fan in the enclosure, which is a great selling point for people who want absolute quiet in their HT setup. Fan noise even at the lowest levels is very noticeable if you have optical audio where the noise floor is inaudible.

Oh... also... can a software update reduce the price of XBOX 360 elite from $449 to compete with the 160GB AppleTV?

So let me get this straight. You talk about features of the AppleTV that are software driven, I say that the 360 can be updated to do the same thing. You then turn around and bring up hardware changes. Please stop moving the goal post.

I know about the 360's hardware failures, I have one. That still doesn't stop MS from adding software features to it. Video Marketplace, Xbox Originals, IPTV (in some places) are things that MS can/did add that were software updates. So when is the AppleTV going to be able to play games like Gears of War, or Trusty Bell, or Katamari Damacy? Or when is the AppleTV going to let you upgrade the hard drive from one size to another? Shoot even the PS3's hard drive is upgradable.

Most everything it (PS3) does is software driven as well. Can you fold protiens on your AppleTV (without hacking it)? Can you run Linux? When is the AppleTV going to be able to play BluRay movies? Or how about DVD's?


For what the ATV does, it does pretty well, but lets not act like it is the only piece of consumer electronics that can have it's software updated to do new things.

 

[Cave Man]

This is not the issue. AppleTV isn't "rejecting" anything. It doesn't have the software present in the current iteration to enable Dolby Digital pass through.

I am pretty sure the ATV checks movies for certain containers from iTunes, then reports back to iTunes if the file is incompatible. (Of course, this could also be a function of iTunes only, if it has such algorithms to do so.) You can add some movies to iTunes that will play just fine in iTunes, but they will not sync with the ATV nor with they show up on the ATV menu if you stream. For example, I have many .mov movies with AC3 DD on my home theater Mac Mini that are in iTunes and play in iTunes (as well as Front Row and QuickTime stand-alone) with 5.1 DD, but they do not show up on my ATV because the ATV cannot play .mov files with AC3.

I should clarify my earlier statements about Dolby Digital by pointing out that AppleTV will most likely NOT actually have a Dolby Digital decoder to the best of my knowledge. It doesn't need to. ...Your Dolby Digital RECEIVER (or standalone surround processor, e.g. Dolby DP-564) does the actual decoding. That's what pass-through is.

Yes, I know this. I've been doing it with my Mini and Onkyo receiver for about 2 years now.

 

[Avatar74]

So let me get this straight. You talk about features of the AppleTV that are software driven, I say that the 360 can be updated to do the same thing. You then turn around and bring up hardware changes. Please stop moving the goal post.

I didn't move the goal post. You did, when you wrote this (emphasis mine):

The 360 could be updated to do everything the Apple TV can do.

My reply was in response to that statement... to which the answer is simply, "No."

 

[Avatar74]

I am pretty sure the ATV checks movies for certain containers from iTunes, then reports back to iTunes if the file is incompatible. (Of course, this could also be a function of iTunes only, if it has such algorithms to do so.) You can add some movies to iTunes that will play just fine in iTunes, but they will not sync with the ATV nor with they show up on the ATV menu if you stream. For example, I have many .mov movies with AC3 DD on my home theater Mac Mini that are in iTunes and play in iTunes (as well as Front Row and QuickTime stand-alone) with 5.1 DD, but they do not show up on my ATV because the ATV cannot play .mov files with AC3.

I'm curious as to why it is, but based on what you're saying here it's not a conscious "restriction"... it simply appears that one piece of hardware is lacking software that other has for decoupling AC-3 from the H.264 stream. Or it could be a different issue... for example, there are some .mov files that, with AAC audio alone, will not play on AppleTV because the video stream's bitstream is too high for AppleTV to handle. It appears the limitation is H.264 Main Profile 3, with a max bitrate of 5Mbps.

That being said, it doesn't appear that AppleTV is deliberately rejecting the file just to be bastards about Dolby Digital... which was my original point in my reply to you.

 

[diamond.g]

I didn't move the goal post. You did, when you wrote this (emphasis mine):



My reply was in response to that statement... to which the answer is simply, "No."

I see. My reply was in response to your statement about software functionality. I even gave the video marketplace as an example. I didn't think anyone would think hardware was being talked about. That is why I claimed you moved the goal post. In retort I asked the same thing of the AppleTV. Until it can play the same games the PS3 and 360 can play, or (BD, HD DVD, DVD) disc, then it too can't be updated to do everything the 360/PS3 can do.

Just curious, if the 360 elite can do more than the ATV why wouldn't it be more expensive? (same question for the PS3)

 

[Avatar74]

I see. My reply was in response to your statement about software functionality. I even gave the video marketplace as an example. I didn't think anyone would think hardware was being talked about. That is why I claimed you moved the goal post. In retort I asked the same thing of the AppleTV. Until it can play the same games the PS3 and 360 can play, or (BD, HD DVD, DVD) disc, then it too can't be updated to do everything the 360/PS3 can do.

Just curious, if the 360 elite can do more than the ATV why wouldn't it be more expensive? (same question for the PS3)

Suffice it to say they are different devices with pros and cons each...

But just for argument's sake... How does a software update get distributed and installed to the XBOX 360? Is it automatic? Or do you have to go through some gyrations to do it, and if so, what are they?

 

[diamond.g]

Suffice it to say they are different devices with pros and cons each...

But just for argument's sake... How does a software update get distributed and installed to the XBOX 360? Is it automatic? Or do you have to go through some gyrations to do it, and if so, what are they?

Software updates are done in one of 3 ways. This is the case for both the PS3 and the 360.

• Sign into Xbox Live (or PSN), the system see's you aren't running the latest firmware and forces you to upgrade. In the 360's case if you refuse it logs you out of live.
• Put a newer game disc that has the new firmware in the system.
• Download the update from MS or Sony and burn it to a disc. This method is the most involving one, dunno how many people actually do this.

 

[Avatar74]

Software updates are done in one of 3 ways. This is the case for both the PS3 and the 360.

• Sign into Xbox Live (or PSN), the system see's you aren't running the latest firmware and forces you to upgrade. In the 360's case if you refuse it logs you out of live.
• Put a newer game disc that has the new firmware in the system.
• Download the update from MS or Sony and burn it to a disc. This method is the most involving one, dunno how many people actually do this.

All feature-matrixes aside...

The above description makes it appear as if IP were an afterthought to product development for the 360. Yes, I know it has IP, uses IP and a lot of gameplay/movies revolve around internet access on it... but let me explain...

In the late 1990's, several organizations including Mitsubishi, Thomson (RCA) and Hitachi got together and formed HAVi, a forum standard that was to be built around IEEE-1394 Firewire (which Apple introduced) and allow networking of audio/video components in an integrated system. That project seems to have completely died.

Then HDMI came about, but HDMI is not an Internet Protocol capable transport. The majority of the industry backed this instead of HAVi.

I've been scratching my head on this one, except to say that anything "IP" scares the crap out of RIAA and MPAA. They recoil in horror at the thought of it being hacked. So they went with HDMI that incorporated HDCP which originated with the advent of DAT.

The problem with this approach is that it's not really a great solution for the consumer in the 21st century who wants easy interoperability between not only home theater components, but integration of all aspects of their digital lifestyle... The most logical solution being to employ the LAN as the backbone to connect it all. That's the holy grail, and AppleTV is the only device that really truly takes IP seriously.

The reason I say XBOX treats IP as an after thought is this... IP is there simply to enable multiplayer games and XBOX Live access... but then you've got goony ergonomics like this update process. Unless you have an XBOX Live subscription, the process to update would be to buy a game and update. This is fine but it certainly indicates that IP was an afterthought rather than the central guiding scope and purpose of the device.

That really means that XBOX is a gaming and movie machine that happens to also have an ethernet port. It is not a convergence device in the true sense of the word. Nothing wrong with that. But that's not the most competitive space to be in... It was, but it will not remain that way for long.

True convergence devices have IP at their heart. They are communications devices first and foremost... conduits for access to content. What content? Well, frankly any content that software can be devised for. So that got me thinking...

Why HDMI? Why don't AV components ALL speak IP? Tech convergence will not happen, truly, until AV components speak the same language as the rest of your digital devices... and the most common language is IP. Hundreds of millions of devices worldwide speak it. There's no reason I shouldn't be able to use iPhone's interface as a "remote control" to tell my DVD player what to do, or to browse a graphical coverflow list of albums on my NAS and dictate which system in the house I want them streamed to at that given moment.

The only reason this doesn't happen sooner (as a standard feature, not an aftermarket geek hackjob) is obstinacy in the industry and fear of decentralization of information control. Information is a commodity with a value that gets artificially inflated by arbitrary barriers just the same way DeBeers controls the price of diamonds by hoarding 99% of the world's supply and keeping it locked up. That can change with broader implementation of IP.

The reason I'm intrigued by the possibilities of AppleTV is not simply that I'm an Apple fanboy... and I'm not a fanboy because of any of the latest mania. I've been a fan of Apple design since the 1970's. What intrigues me is that an AppleTV type of device is a very subversive weapon against traditional media control. Who needs to subscribe to 900 channels of crap when you can access any one of thousands of professional-grade podcasts on any subject you can possibly imagine? Who needs record companies when artists can compose, record, produce, market, distribute directly from their studio to your living room? The idea AppleTV seems to be aiming for is one of lethal force against TV networks, against motion picture studios, record companies, news outlets, media conglomerates. And the funny thing is, the motion picture studios probably don't even realize they're helping Apple help us (viewers) nail their own coffin shut.

I see it growing into a convergence hub that allows two-way communication between multiple platforms and AV appliances and gadgets to bring it all together under a dynamic UI that adapts to suit the job at present... I see devices like these sprouting up everywhere in the near future as others enter into the game... rather than a bunch of devices that cannot talk to one another and have to be junked every time someone invents a new grooved frisbee.

 

[Mac In School]

Wow @ this thread. Way too technical for me.

Will I be able to rip my DVD's 5.1 tracks to the TV, or what?

 

[Cave Man]

Wow @ this thread. Way too technical for me.

Will I be able to rip my DVD's 5.1 tracks to the TV, or what?

We don't know yet. Several things will need to occur. If Apple provides the ATV's Quicktime with the ability to send AC3 DD info out the optical port or over the DVI connector AND your receiver or TV can decode DD, then it is possible. But Apple may keep us from sync'ing or streaming from iTunes, thus restricting playback to HD movies downloaded directly to the ATV from the iTMS.

If Apple doesn't do anything tricky to prevent sync'ing or streaming, then it is likely Handbrake can be updated to include AC3 passthrough to compatible files (as you can already do with Quicktime or Front Row with a Mac and Perian). Alternatively, they could provide ATV Quicktime with the ability to play mkv or avi movies, which can already be encoded with AC3 passthrough. Keep your fingers crossed.