Apple TV's Estimated Market Share Declines as Customers Await Highly-Anticipated 4K Model

kiranmk2

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Oct 4, 2008
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Issues are too expensive and not enough compelling features - especially in markets outside of the US.

The 4th gen set looks like a bit of a disaster - clearly designed and specc'd in 2014 after the iPhone 6 launch but delayed because of the ongoing streaming rights discussions. by WWDC it looks like the discussions have all fallen through. What they should have done was wait until early 2016 and release an A9-powered box with HDMI 2.0a and HDR10 support (possibly Dolby Vision too). Such a box would have been a lot more future-proof (A9 will be able to hardware decode 10-bit HEVC in iOS/TvOS 11) and allowed people to move on to 4k without a further $150 outlay. The 4th Gen ended up offering nothing really compelling over the 3rd generation box in terms of capability (both played 1080p) - the main differentiators of the Siri remote and App store just haven't lived up to the hype.

I hope Apple learns and releases a $150 (max) box and a $200 'console-edition' box with Apple-designed controller to encourage gaming development. Anything worse than this will be a big miss.
 
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Brenster

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Jul 7, 2008
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Looking forward on the revision. Would love to see being able to output the Dolby Digital Plus bitstream to my receiver for decoding rather than decoding on the ATV itself and outputting uncompressed audio.

HDR and 4K will be nice for the future, HEVC can be of use now. Apple will have to go up a gear to compete with Amazon here in the UK though; their Fire TV, Stick and The Grand Tour advertising has paid off in spades. I know loads of people with the Stick (got a 2nd gen Fire box myself), but I'm only one of two I know with Apple TV.
 

8281

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Dec 15, 2010
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You claim customers are awaiting a 4K TV, yet provide no evidence of such. I have a hard time believing average consumers have 4K capable TVs, care about 4K, let alone are even conscious of it...

TV is lower on the totem pole because it's higher priced.
I'm pretty tech savvy and just don't really care about 4k. I was never waiting for it.
 

gnipgnop

macrumors 65816
Feb 18, 2009
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I hope Apple learns and releases a $150 (max) box and a $200 'console-edition' box with Apple-designed controller to encourage gaming development. Anything worse than this will be a big miss.
Why do people keep claiming Apple needs a 1st party controller? SteelSeries already has that covered. Also, you're saying that the A8 wasn't good enough for the 4th gen, but think about it this way: Apple knew that the App Store for the Apple TV would take time to fill out and get rolling, AND that they weren't going to be offering 4K for iTunes during that time either. Now they're in a position to feasibly put the A10 Fusion into the 5th gen version two years later.
 

kodos

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May 1, 2010
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I have 4k capable everything - Xbox One S with UHD player, and 4K LG TV. Even a 4K Roku.

Don't use any of it in 4k. Full HD is more than enough especially with the usual upcharge for 4k content. It is the other features that would might come in the Apple TV revision that might be interesting to me. Not 4k.
 
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ridgezin

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Nov 9, 2008
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There's definitely a decent amount of 4K content out there to benefit most people now, so I'm not sure how you can sat there's not much content. Amazon and Netflix now have a number of 4K titles out there and there's also a growing amount of 4K Youtube content out there as well. I can understand however if you don't have access to Amazon/Netflix that you might not have gained much exposure to 4K because there's definitely a general lack of content out there beyond those providers. In the UK, one of the major cable providers recently started 4K sports streaming and now also with Dolby Atmos, but it's definitely not cheap at all.
I admit that there is a personal bias at work here. I haven't sat down and watched a full movie in years. I don't have time to binge-watch Netflix series. When I have watched a movie in 4K, the experience wasn't so superior that it was a game-changer for me (similar to the difference between 480p DVDs and HD content). For HD adoption, the NFL and the Athens Olympics were the game changers. I think the same thing will be true here. Sports content is where the high definition makes a meaningful difference.
 
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Keebler

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Jun 20, 2005
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You claim customers are awaiting a 4K TV, yet provide no evidence of such. I have a hard time believing average consumers have 4K capable TVs, care about 4K, let alone are even conscious of it...

TV is lower on the totem pole because it's higher priced.
Hi,
I'm one who's aware and waiting. I've got my eye on the LG OLED 4K TV for boxing week sales in November and I hope to have a 4K streaming device shortly thereafter.

Might not be the AppleTV (if they do come out with a 4K model). I'll be researching between now and then.

Cheers,
Brian
 

osaga

macrumors 6502
Jun 11, 2012
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I strongly dislike the Apple TV remote. I can never tell which way it's oriented and half the inputs I make are accidental. Nothing like watching a movie, going the remote to turn up the volume and getting blasted back to the home screen and opening up the PBS app. 30 seconds later I'm finally back to the movie and probably not where I left off since the progress slider is easily nudged. Also the icons are hard to scroll thought and select with any precision, it's like they're too sticky.
 

oneMadRssn

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Sep 8, 2011
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I'll start by saying that I love by ATV4, and I loved by ATV3 before it. But it is becoming more difficult, as a consumer, to justify the ATV.

First, so many TVs have an app interface built in. It's never as polished or nice as Apple's, but it's there and doesn't cost anything extra. I might pay to have better UI and experience for my primary living room TV, but not for a kitchen TV or a bedroom TV as long as they have Netflix, HBO, and some way to stream from my HDHomeRun and file server.

Second, there are just objectively better hardware out there. The nVidia Shield supports all the latest fancy formats, and you can play quite a few good games natively. AndroidTV isn't so much worse than tvOS.

Apple really needs to blow it out of the water here. Merely adding 4k to the ATV won't be enough to justify dropping $150 on it. They'll need some serious improvements to tvOS, such that spending so much money on something that is essentially replicating functionality built-in to most TVs is worth it. And it better not be yet another monthly streaming subscription service.
 
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FasterQuieter

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Feb 21, 2008
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My 4K TV has been been eagerly awaiting this for almost a year now. Can't wait to ditch Samsung's horrendous Tizen OS/apps. Though I really hope Apple improve the remote. That thing is a tiny slab of frustration. I will also be very disappointed if it doesn't have at least the A10. I assume that is necessary for 4K HEVC, but Apple have been known to skimp with the chips as much as possible in the past. The single core A5 in the 3rd-gen model for example. This needs at least a fully-functional A10 to be a decent alternative gaming platform.
 
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imronburgundy

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Nov 1, 2013
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Too late for what? Nobody ever says that about the phone market, and this particular market isn't really as tough. Apple has been cranking out the A10 Fusion long enough that it's possible that could be included in the Apple TV refresh. Combine that with Metal 2 and...voila...things like the 2017 Nvidia Shield are nothing special.
Can you play Amazon Prime shows on Apple TV? Can you install 3rd party apps that aren't directly approved by Apple, such as emulators? Can the Apple TV stream PC games in 4K60fps? I think I just convinced myself that it's time to sell that ATV4 that's been collecting dust on the shelf.
 

oneMadRssn

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Too late, too limited and too expensive.

$60 Chromecast Ultra pretty much handles all 4K needs minus Amazon Video. Even the original Chromecast which goes for ~$20 now is more versatile than any Apple TV.

$200 Nvidia Shield TV if you additionally want Amazon Video, run apps, play high end mobile games and stream PC quality games.

~$200 Apollo Lake/Gemini Lake HTPC that plays every media type, double as PC replacement and storage/media server. https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813157728
I don't think Chromecast is a competitor to the AppleTV. It's more a competitor to AirPlay. Chomecast is nice, but the fact it requires the use of a phone or tablet is pretty limiting and, in my opinion, frustrating to use.

I agree about the Shield TV. I am seriously tempted by it.
 

HVDynamo

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Feb 21, 2011
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You claim customers are awaiting a 4K TV, yet provide no evidence of such. I have a hard time believing average consumers have 4K capable TVs, care about 4K, let alone are even conscious of it...

TV is lower on the totem pole because it's higher priced.
Well, I am one of the people who has been holding out for a 4K apple TV. I would have bought the ATV4 right away if it had 4k, even though I still was using a 720p TV and an ATV2 at the time ATV4 launched. But I was planning on buying a 4K tv at some point and it felt stupid to buy a device that didn't support it even back in 2015. Now, I have said 4K tv and am still using my ATV2 because I will not buy an ATV that doesn't support 4K. Sure, I may not be an average consumer, but it's people like me who advise a lot of average consumers what to buy when they call asking what they should get.

TLDR; I am a customer who has been awaiting a 4K ATV.
 

oneMadRssn

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Sep 8, 2011
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Can you play Amazon Prime shows on Apple TV? Can you install 3rd party apps that aren't directly approved by Apple, such as emulators? Can the Apple TV stream PC games in 4K60fps? I think I just convinced myself that it's time to sell that ATV4 that's been collecting dust on the shelf.
From that standpoint, for those that don't already own a 4k tv, why not just buy a Sony with AndroidTV built-in? Other than the PC game stuff, it does everything else you listed and doesn't require a second box. if it's even outdated, a streaming box can be attached later. Why pay $200 now for a box to replicate functionality when you can pay $200 in 2 years instead?
 
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kyleh22

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Apr 26, 2012
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My Vizio P70 TV upscales 1080p to 4k. I can't tell a difference between the up scaling and native 4k content TBH. I'm much more interested in HDR....and even more than HDR I'm interested in Amazon Prime Video and Spotify.
 

ssgbryan

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Jul 18, 2002
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You claim customers are awaiting a 4K TV, yet provide no evidence of such. I have a hard time believing average consumers have 4K capable TVs, care about 4K, let alone are even conscious of it...

TV is lower on the totem pole because it's higher priced.
4K tvs sell at Wal-Mart starting at $328.

They also have a rack of 4K discs selling at the same price as BluRays.
 
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kiranmk2

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Oct 4, 2008
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Why do people keep claiming Apple needs a 1st party controller? SteelSeries already has that covered. Also, you're saying that the A8 wasn't good enough for the 4th gen, but think about it this way: Apple knew that the App Store for the Apple TV would take time to fill out and get rolling, AND that they weren't going to be offering 4K for iTunes during that time either. Now they're in a position to feasibly put the A10 Fusion into the 5th gen version two years later.
Fine - then bundle the Steelseries controller, but I'm guessing Apple wouldn't want to do that (look at how well the LG monitors did). An Apple TV with A10 fusion (or even better, an A10X) must be getting pretty close in power to a Nintendo Switch which could attract all sorts of great games. If the controller doesn't come with the box though, I'd guess only 5-10% of owners will buy one which won't give the install base to attract developers.
 

Ponta

macrumors newbie
Apr 7, 2012
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Just a warning: 8K TVs are just around the corner. Japan is bringing out the tech in the year or two leading up to the Tokyo Olympics. Just saying.
 

imronburgundy

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Nov 1, 2013
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From that standpoint, for those that don't already own a 4k tv, why not just buy a Sony with AndroidTV built-in? Other than the PC game stuff, it does everything else you listed and doesn't require a second box. if it's even outdated, a streaming box can be attached later. Why pay $200 now for a box to replicate functionality when you can pay $200 in 2 years instead?
Yeah, that's an option if you don't currently have a 4K TV, that I'm sure a lot of people will consider in their purchase. Personally, using an Nvidia GPU, I get much more benefit from using a Shield TV, both with Plex and gamestream for either $50 more, or the same price as the Apple TV, depending on the model you choose.
 

OddyOh

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Nov 29, 2005
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I strongly dislike the Apple TV remote. I can never tell which way it's oriented and half the inputs I make are accidental. Nothing like watching a movie, going the remote to turn up the volume and getting blasted back to the home screen and opening up the PBS app. 30 seconds later I'm finally back to the movie and probably not where I left off since the progress slider is easily nudged. Also the icons are hard to scroll thought and select with any precision, it's like they're too sticky.
This. Apple TV has the worst remote I own, and I have many. No difference between up/down, and all the buttons are the same...what were they thinking?!
I even taught my ATV to use an old cable box remote, at least I can tell which way is up!
 

amro

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Jul 7, 2008
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I ended up getting a Shield TV so that I could have one central location for 4K content/apps. And 4K Netflix on it is beautiful. The Defenders and Stranger Things is a joy to watch in 4K. That being said, I think the UI experience and Android is not as nice and smooth as Apple TV. And the Shield remote is no better or worse than the Apple TV remote, but I solve that with a Harmony remote.

Also, I am "cutting the cord" and have setup my OTA and DVR on an HDHomerun and Channels app on AppleTV. With the Channels app, Plex, PS Vue or Sling TV or DTV Now, I would have one central media hub. Therefore an AppleTV with 4K would be perfect. OTA/DVR is not great on Android TV. However, I do worry about full Dolby DTS/TrueHD/Atmos support and video frequency switching. If Apple scrimps on those, forget it. There is a noticeable difference watching a Blu-ray from Plex at anything other than the frame rate it was created with. If AppleTV won't allow Plex or any app to switch frame rates, I may have to skip it.