Apple Vision Pro Official Release Date 2/2/2024

[Audentia]

iPhones and iPods took big clunky tech with bad user interfaces and made them sleek portable devices with a much better user interface.

Apple Vision Pro is taking big clunky tech and creating a much better user interface (for a very specific use-case), while not solving the big clunky form factor that keeps a lot of people from using VR devices.

while I haven't tried a quest 3, the vision pro is much more comfortable than a quest 2. Its not perfect but it is a noticeable improvement. For example I could wear it all day, with breaks, as where with quest I felt sick after one session and didn't want to put it back on.

 

[Audentia]

I look at it like this: what problem does this product solve?

The iPod - solved the problem of how to carry your entire personal music collection in your pocket; portable music players were a thing for decades before.
The iPhone - combined cellular phone, portable music player, and (for many) portable computer/PDA into one device that worked seamlessly.
The iPad - portable television/media consumption device; main computing device for children, the elderly, and those that only have basic computing needs.

Vision Pro - ?????

As I see it, with this first headset,
1. It will be the best device for 3D modeling and CAD related work, artists, architects, car designers, etc. once the software is built for it
2. It's a solid device for software development with unlimited windows and pretty great ergonomics since you can walk around and put the screens wherever you want
3. It's a compelling movie experience, I'm not sure about the best.
4. games tbd, depends on developers and if it can offload compute to a mac to run full PC or PS5 VR titles (M2 is not powerful enough)
5. it will open up new ideas for entertainment media forms we haven't even thought of yet (like Disneyland experiences in your house)

My prediction for the future,
1. The vision pro will replace a wider and wider set of mac technical workflows, essentially this is the next generation macOS and studio display, blending hardware and software all in one virtual workspace. You may still have a mac studio or macbook as a wireless compute unit.
2. In 3 years or so as it improves and gets cheaper it will replace iPad related activities like content consumption and games and be more mainstream in the house.
3. Maybe 5-10 years from now it will be so light and mobile it can be used outside and then replace iPhone activities.

 

[Luis Ortega]

thats right! we owe a lot to the first segway adopters. There are so many smaller electric vehicles today. definitely pioneers.

The Segway maimed a lot of people and its inventor was killed when he drove his scooter off a cliff.
Let’s hope the Vision Pro has better luck.

 

[chabig]

The Segway maimed a lot of people and its inventor was killed when he drove his scooter off a cliff.

Dean Kamen is still very much alive!

Dean Kamen - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Korican100]

The Segway maimed a lot of people and its inventor was killed when he drove his scooter off a cliff.
Let’s hope the Vision Pro has better luck.

like i said. pioneers!

 

[Luis Ortega]

Dean Kamen is still very much alive!

Dean Kamen - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

You're right, it was the former company owner, Jimi Heselden, who ran off a cliff, not Kamen.

 

[Bustermd]

There are a lot of arguments citing "immersive" workflows, "immersive" content consumption, etc.

I guess I'm not really sure that there is a huge appetite for this. I've heard about studies about the experience of people working from home during COVID finding work Zoom meetings intrusive, for example, as now your coworkers are now being beamed into your living room. Now imagine strapping that to your face.

Not sure I want to have my email or a spreadsheet beamed directly to my retina while wearing one pound ski goggles and I'm positive most people feel that way as well.

 

[vinegarshots]

There are a lot of arguments citing "immersive" workflows, "immersive" content consumption, etc.

I guess I'm not really sure that there is a huge appetite for this. I've heard about studies about the experience of people working from home during COVID finding work Zoom meetings intrusive, for example, as now your coworkers are now being beamed into your living room. Now imagine strapping that to your face.

Not sure I want to have my email or a spreadsheet beamed directly to my retina while wearing one pound ski goggles and I'm positive most people feel that way as well.

For work purposes, the AVP would need to provide HUGE workflow benefits to make it worth the added discomfort and inconvenience of putting on a headset. And it just isn't there. It's a novel way of accomplishing tasks, but how is it better? How does it make us get work done easier/faster? It offers the ability to multitask, but most of us with a multitask heavy workflow use desktop apps on multiple monitors already. And I'd rather use my multiple monitors than have a heavy headset strapped to my head for 8 hours a day.

 

[vinegarshots]

As I see it, with this first headset,
1. It will be the best device for 3D modeling and CAD related work, artists, architects, car designers, etc. once the software is built for it

3D modeling and CAD isn't really something you need a 3D environment to do (nor is it really beneficial for that due to the way 3D tools are built). It would be good for 3D visualization, and maybe 3D sculpting, but not heavy 3D modeling or CAD work.

3. It's a compelling movie experience, I'm not sure about the best.

For VR headsets, it SHOULD be the best movie experience. And with that high quality OLED display, it should rival movie theater experiences...

4. games tbd, depends on developers and if it can offload compute to a mac to run full PC or PS5 VR titles (M2 is not powerful enough)

Macs can't run PS5 games. Macs also can't run most PC VR games. And even if they could, most PCVR games are designed for motion tracked controllers with multiple buttons on each hand, which the Vision Pro does not have.
Expect Vision Pro games to either be gamepad-only, or basic hand-controlled stuff like Fruit Ninja

5. it will open up new ideas for entertainment media forms we haven't even thought of yet (like Disneyland experiences in your house)

We've had at least 8 years of VR to open up these new entertainment and media forms...where are they? I really don't see the AVP opening up all this new stuff no one has thought of, because everyone has had plenty of time to think of it already...

2. In 3 years or so as it improves and gets cheaper it will replace iPad related activities like content consumption and games and be more mainstream in the house.
3. Maybe 5-10 years from now it will be so light and mobile it can be used outside and then replace iPhone activities.

The only way it's going to replace mobile devices for general content consumption is if it's as small/light as a pair of reading glasses.

 

[Jensend]

I've heard about studies about the experience of people working from home during COVID finding work Zoom meetings intrusive, for example, as now your coworkers are now being beamed into your living room. Now imagine strapping that to your face.

With VR, you don't have to do your hair or have video of your room in the background. Everyone can be beamed to a new shared space.
I think VR is the best way to connect to people who can't be physically present (If everyone has a VR device and you don't take into account ease of setup).

 

[vinegarshots]

Check out the huge list of MR/VR games available at launch!

Every Confirmed AR/VR Apple Vision Pro Game So Far

Apple Vision Pro has a growing range of AR/VR games. Here's the full list.

www.uploadvr.com

😒😆

Embarassing TBH.

 

[klasma]

With VR, you don't have to do your hair or have video of your room in the background.

With AI, you’ll eventually (soon?) also won’t have to. No relation to 3D VR really.

 

[Jensend]

With AI, you’ll eventually (soon?) also won’t have to. No relation to 3D VR really.

I mean, you can already just use a Memoji.

That's not the only advantage of VR for meetings and collaboration. One is that you have spatial audio and avatars, so you can more naturally turn to face a person you are addressing.
I feel much more comfortable speaking up in a group VR meeting than on an audio or audiovisual conference call.

You can have a common screen that you can project to while still seeing those around you in the VR space.

 

[subjonas]

I see some potential value in the VP for me but no rush. Still a lot of unknowns so I’m going to reassess after it’s been out for awhile.

 

[subjonas]

Haha no I am not interested in buying it, nor defensive of the pricing. I’m just not interested in the pricing discussion, it’s boring. People expect the AVP to be like and sell like an iPod when it’s not. It’s a niche product like the Mac Pro, and it’s bleeding edge tech. I’m more interested in discussing the merits and problems AR brings, and how the AVP is tackling it in their first gen product. Pricing ridicule is dismissive of the product.

And yes it is prohibitively priced. Maybe for a reason?

Yeah I always find discussions about price completely uninteresting. Not that I’m rich, of course we all want things to be cheaper, but price is determined 100% by wallet votes, and 0% by complaints. So there’s nothing really to discuss beyond “I will /won’t buy it”. I come to MR for interesting discussions about products, tech, workflow, etc. Unfortunately the majority of MR comments seem to be complaining about price.

 

[Harvey Zoltan]

oh maybe I misunderstood. I am thinking about the virtual windows and screens it projects and how that would be used for productivity and how it compares to physical TVs or monitors, not the overall quality of the lens / camera pass through. The windows and text look just about as if they were real but maybe not quite as clear or precise, but its very close.

The overall quality is insane, the brightness is surely good enough, ie it replicates very bright lights and everything enough to make you squint just like looking at a real light. When you first look at your hands with it, you think you are looking through it e.g. as if it were glass, not a screen with cameras sending you a video. And that is probably the most impressive thing about it. However, it doesn't handle motion well, and the illusion is then broken.

Would you care to expand a bit on the "Doesn't handle motion well" part of your comment because I haven't heard anyone mention that before and it sounds like a total deal breaker to me. Do you mean if you turn your head quickly the image smears because surely this cannot be the case.

 

[Jensend]

Would you care to expand a bit on the "Doesn't handle motion well" part of your comment because I haven't heard anyone mention that before and it sounds like a total deal breaker to me. Do you mean if you turn your head quickly the image smears because surely this cannot be the case.

For VR to not have motion blur when you move your head, you ideally want each image to display for 1ms (1/1000 of a second) or less. Digitally rendered 3D content has no motion blur itself (unless you specifically add blur), so the total amount of blur on the digital content is 1ms worth.
The problem is that physical cameras do not have instantaneous capture. So if the camera is capturing light for 1ms, you have to add that to the 1 ms that the screen displays the image, so you end up with 2ms of total motion blur for the passthrough video feed.
But 1/1000th of a second doesn't give much time to capture a frame of video in low light. At 90Hz, you can capture light for up to 11ms. The longer your capture, the less noisy the image will be, but the more motion blur you'll get when you move your head.
So there's a trade-off... neither option is ideal.

Hmmm... I wonder if they could adjust the passthrough camera exposure time based on how fast you move your head.

Oh, and there's another issue. The shorter the shutter speed, the more likely you'll end up with issues from flicker from artificial lighting, which runs at a different frequency than the headset.

(Sorry, I'm having a bit of a conversation with myself as I think through the implications)

 

[Harvey Zoltan]

For VR to not have motion blur when you move your head, you ideally want each image to display for 1ms (1/1000 of a second) or less. Digitally rendered 3D content has no motion blur itself (unless you specifically add blur), so the total amount of blur on the digital content is 1ms worth.
The problem is that physical cameras do not have instantaneous capture. So if the camera is capturing light for 1ms, you have to add that to the 1 ms that the screen displays the image, so you end up with 2ms of total motion blur for the passthrough video feed.
But 1/1000th of a second doesn't give much time to capture a frame of video in low light. At 90Hz, you can capture light for up to 11ms. The longer your capture, the less noisy the image will be, but the more motion blur you'll get when you move your head.
So there's a trade-off... neither option is ideal.

Hmmm... I wonder if they could adjust the passthrough camera exposure time based on how fast you move your head.

Oh, and there's another issue. The shorter the shutter speed, the more likely you'll end up with issues from flicker from artificial lighting, which runs at a different frequency than the headset.

(Sorry, I'm having a bit of a conversation with myself as I think through the implications)

Thanks for the information. Was excited for this and now I'm bit disappointed. There was one review I saw that did mention something like this when the user turned to look at the other people in the room and they were very briefly out of focus. It's a shame but I guess there are limits to the technology.

 

[4sallypat]

Check out the huge list of MR/VR games available at launch!

Every Confirmed AR/VR Apple Vision Pro Game So Far

Apple Vision Pro has a growing range of AR/VR games. Here's the full list.

www.uploadvr.com

😒😆

Embarassing TBH.

That's pitiful.
Did not see a single game I would be interested in.
I don't play golf either.

If MSFS was possible, I'd buy it in a heartbeat.

 

[mguzman]

That's pitiful.
Did not see a single game I would be interested in.
I don't play golf either.

If MSFS was possible, I'd buy it in a heartbeat.

I have Quest headsets (1, 2 and 3 over the years) and the only game on the list I’ve used is Rec Room because I use it with my grandchildren. None of the others interest me either.

Would love to have MSFS on the Vision Pro, especially if they figured out a way for flight yoke support. Or now that I think of it, support for using hand tracking for flight controls sounds pretty amazing too if implemented well. Oh the possibilities!

 

[Audentia]

For VR to not have motion blur when you move your head, you ideally want each image to display for 1ms (1/1000 of a second) or less. Digitally rendered 3D content has no motion blur itself (unless you specifically add blur), so the total amount of blur on the digital content is 1ms worth.
The problem is that physical cameras do not have instantaneous capture. So if the camera is capturing light for 1ms, you have to add that to the 1 ms that the screen displays the image, so you end up with 2ms of total motion blur for the passthrough video feed.
But 1/1000th of a second doesn't give much time to capture a frame of video in low light. At 90Hz, you can capture light for up to 11ms. The longer your capture, the less noisy the image will be, but the more motion blur you'll get when you move your head.
So there's a trade-off... neither option is ideal.

Hmmm... I wonder if they could adjust the passthrough camera exposure time based on how fast you move your head.

Oh, and there's another issue. The shorter the shutter speed, the more likely you'll end up with issues from flicker from artificial lighting, which runs at a different frequency than the headset.

(Sorry, I'm having a bit of a conversation with myself as I think through the implications)

This is exactly it. Explained it very well. Yes it's a conundrum and a limitation of the cameras, low light causing more blurring and artificial lights with flickering are all problems as well.

 

[Audentia]

Thanks for the information. Was excited for this and now I'm bit disappointed. There was one review I saw that did mention something like this when the user turned to look at the other people in the room and they were very briefly out of focus. It's a shame but I guess there are limits to the technology.

yeah exactly. His other explanation was good so I'll leave it there. But yes, essentially, if you turn your head, the cameras cannot keep up for the split seconds of you actually moving. Its exacerbated in low light situations. If you move slowly its fine, but even a natural motion is too much for it. So you won't be doing any sports or exercise with it.

 

[Audentia]

3D modeling and CAD isn't really something you need a 3D environment to do (nor is it really beneficial for that due to the way 3D tools are built). It would be good for 3D visualization, and maybe 3D sculpting, but not heavy 3D modeling or CAD work.



For VR headsets, it SHOULD be the best movie experience. And with that high quality OLED display, it should rival movie theater experiences...



Macs can't run PS5 games. Macs also can't run most PC VR games. And even if they could, most PCVR games are designed for motion tracked controllers with multiple buttons on each hand, which the Vision Pro does not have.
Expect Vision Pro games to either be gamepad-only, or basic hand-controlled stuff like Fruit Ninja




We've had at least 8 years of VR to open up these new entertainment and media forms...where are they? I really don't see the AVP opening up all this new stuff no one has thought of, because everyone has had plenty of time to think of it already...



The only way it's going to replace mobile devices for general content consumption is if it's as small/light as a pair of reading glasses.

1. Your argument is like saying why do we need computers with word processing if we have typewriters? The situation now is only because current CAD and 3D software is built for 2D devices. With a new medium, this can and should change. A 3D displaying device is ideal for 3D work of all kinds.

2. I would say it does rival those experiences, just not sure about being definitively better. You will have to try for yourself. Certainly the next gen will get even better though, so this seems like a clear direction where it will be desirable.

3. Macs can run PS5 and PC games, as recent RE4, Village, etc. ports demonstrate. I'm talking about hardware capability, not game availability based on current market dynamics. I'm talking about potential of the hardware to try to understand the future, not what is or isn't just now. There's no reason those games couldn't work with the hand tracking Vision Pro provides, and there's no reason bluetooth controllers won't be compatible with it.

4. the clarity and tracking of the AVP is worlds better. Its still not perfect as I've said elsewhere, but clarity alone makes this much more ideal for these kinds of experiences. Every other headset is like looking through a grainy screen door, so nothing is believable, with AVP it actually is compelling when a dinosaur bursts through the wall or whatever.

5. yes, and eventually it will. Whether 5 or 10 or 15 years I don't know, but within that timeframe. The apple watch today has more compute than an iPhone 5S (which had "desktop" 64bit performance), and that in turn has more compute than a desktop PC I made when the first iPhone came out in 2007. Apple Silicon is tailor made for headsets, (efficiency above all else) their use in macs is just a byproduct until we get there.

 

[vinegarshots]

1. Your argument is like saying why do we need computers with word processing if we have typewriters? The situation now is only because current CAD and 3D software is built for 2D devices. With a new medium, this can and should change. A 3D displaying device is ideal for 3D work of all kinds.

We cook food inside an oven, but it doesn't mean that chefs should therefore create better food if they sit inside the oven instead of a kitchen.

3. Macs can run PS5 and PC games, as recent RE4, Village, etc. ports demonstrate. I'm talking about hardware capability, not game availability based on current market dynamics. I'm talking about potential of the hardware to try to understand the future, not what is or isn't just now. There's no reason those games couldn't work with the hand tracking Vision Pro provides, and there's no reason bluetooth controllers won't be compatible with it.

A couple things here are incorrect, actually. Most existing VR games require multiple button inputs on tracked motion controllers that you can't reproduce with hand tracking.
Also, bluetooth has huge latency. Huge latency does not work in the VR space. Bluetooth controllers will not work well. The Meta Quest uses a custom-built wireless protocol for its controllers to keep latency low.

4. the clarity and tracking of the AVP is worlds better. Its still not perfect as I've said elsewhere, but clarity alone makes this much more ideal for these kinds of experiences. Every other headset is like looking through a grainy screen door, so nothing is believable, with AVP it actually is compelling when a dinosaur bursts through the wall or whatever.

Yeah, but things bursting through the wall is also old-hat. We've already seen plenty of demos and gimmicks elsewhere. I don't see how higher-fidelity hardware is going to magically give us a bunch of things that haven't already been attempted or seen before.

 

[Audentia]

We cook food inside an oven, but it doesn't mean that chefs should therefore create better food if they sit inside the oven instead of a kitchen.



A couple things here are incorrect, actually. Most existing VR games require multiple button inputs on tracked motion controllers that you can't reproduce with hand tracking.
Also, bluetooth has huge latency. Huge latency does not work in the VR space. Bluetooth controllers will not work well. The Meta Quest uses a custom-built wireless protocol for its controllers to keep latency low.


Yeah, but things bursting through the wall is also old-hat. We've already seen plenty of demos and gimmicks elsewhere. I don't see how higher-fidelity hardware is going to magically give us a bunch of things that haven't already been attempted or seen before.

Uh, I'm just gonna say I don't think the oven analogy is applicable in the slightest.

OK so not bluetooth. And maybe that means not this 1st gen headset then. A future one though, definitely.

So like, this is the same kind of reasoning people said, web browser on a phone? that old hat? I can already do that on my blackberry. Turns out the experience matters. Time will tell of course, but I'll bet on Apple (and working with Disney) to figure it out.