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Why does a product need to solve a problem? Why can’t it just be cool? It is cool. That’s enough for me and several of my friends to buy it.
Being cool is a problem and every new product solves it for some time. And then the novelty vanishes and people start to ask, why do we waste billions of dollars to fly to the damn moon? That dusty old rock is boring, we need that NASA money here on earth. Space travel, never heard of something less exciting! Call me when you've got warp speed and the actual Vulcans reveal themselves.
 
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Right now yes. But that will change with time. It's more importantly, a platform for developers.

Apple hopes. But if it meets with the same reception that the Watch and Apple TV have, there’s some question as to whether it’ll get interesting apps or not. If the incentive isn’t there they won’t develop for it.
 
Apple hopes. But if it meets with the same reception that the Watch and Apple TV have, there’s some question as to whether it’ll get interesting apps or not. If the incentive isn’t there they won’t develop for it.
There are definitely two routes this can go:

1) The iPhone route where the existing product technology simply wasn't good enough until Apple leapfrogged them and changed the world
2) The iPod / Apple Watch / AppleTV route where the technology simply wasn't good enough until Apple leapfrogged them, but the use cases were of smaller focus and utility

In either case they are sitting comfortably as the most profitable / best selling / best product in each category even if only one product was the Next Big Thing. Apple is clearly presenting this as a general purpose computing platform and not as a narrow use case solution like the Watch - so the potential for it to fall towards the former category is certainly there.

The caveat here is of course that AR/VR has conceptually been around since at least the eighties and practically for around a decade, without many compelling broad use cases. It's not like there hasn't been time for thinkers and developers to come up with them. It could be a chicken and egg situation, and now that the technology to develop more actual compelling use cases are here we'll see a boom.

Right now, for myself, I'm seeing media consumption and WFH/remote working as the most compelling ones. I already WFH and spend most of my day by myself surrounded by screens, so concerns about "looking weird" or isolation from family / co-workers isn't an issue here (don't worry, I have a very healthy social life and relationships as well :p )
 
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There are definitely two routes this can go:

1) The iPhone route where the existing product technology simply wasn't good enough until Apple leapfrogged them and changed the world
2) The iPod / Apple Watch / AppleTV route where the technology simply wasn't good enough until Apple leapfrogged them, but the use cases were of smaller focus and utility

In either case they are sitting comfortably as the most profitable / best selling / best product in each category even if only one product was the Next Big Thing. Apple is clearly presenting this as a general purpose computing platform and not as a narrow use case solution like the Watch - so the potential for it to fall towards the former category is certainly there.

The caveat here is of course that AR/VR has conceptually been around since at least the eighties and practically for around a decade, without many compelling broad use cases. It's not like there hasn't been time for thinkers and developers to come up with them. It could be a chicken and egg situation, and now that the technology to develop more actual compelling use cases are here we'll see a boom.

Right now, for myself, I'm seeing media consumption and WFH/remote working as the most compelling ones. I already WFH and spend most of my day by myself surrounded by screens, so concerns about "looking weird" or isolation from family / co-workers isn't an issue here (don't worry, I have a very healthy social life and relationships as well :p )

Whether or not the hardware is good is immaterial if people don’t want it. That was my point. And while your use cases are fine they really apply more to the pandemic context than they do to the mainstream behavior of human beings. Most people don’t do remote work. Most people like to watch movies and TV together.
 
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“the real killer device everyone will want. “

It’s really not hard logic.
To everyone complaining about the price, or the utility as a stand alone product in 2023…. Is it THAT hard to understand this is not the end goal? They don’t care if they sell 100k of them and nothing more. They need the real world usage to drive future innovation and they need mass production of new parts to drive down prices for… the future.

It’s been everywhere for years that they want to make AR glasses - the real killer device everyone will want. They have to do this first and they’re the only company in the world willing to roll out a niche product first in order to get there.

It’s really not hard logic.
“Everyone will want”?

Wanting one and being able to afford one are worlds apart. It’s cool. But do I need it? No. Unlike the smartphone, you can’t expect people to walk around with one of these strapped around their head.
 
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Whether or not the hardware is good is immaterial if people don’t want it. That was my point. And while your use cases are fine they really apply more to the pandemic context than they do to the mainstream behavior of human beings. Most people don’t do remote work. Most people like to watch movies and TV together.
People clearly want it. Whether they will integrate it into their lives is another question altogether - and one we simply don't know at this stage.
 
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There are definitely two routes this can go:

1) The iPhone route where the existing product technology simply wasn't good enough until Apple leapfrogged them and changed the world
2) The iPod / Apple Watch / AppleTV route where the technology simply wasn't good enough until Apple leapfrogged them, but the use cases were of smaller focus and utility

In either case they are sitting comfortably as the most profitable / best selling / best product in each category even if only one product was the Next Big Thing. Apple is clearly presenting this as a general purpose computing platform and not as a narrow use case solution like the Watch - so the potential for it to fall towards the former category is certainly there.

The caveat here is of course that AR/VR has conceptually been around since at least the eighties and practically for around a decade, without many compelling broad use cases. It's not like there hasn't been time for thinkers and developers to come up with them. It could be a chicken and egg situation, and now that the technology to develop more actual compelling use cases are here we'll see a boom.

Right now, for myself, I'm seeing media consumption and WFH/remote working as the most compelling ones. I already WFH and spend most of my day by myself surrounded by screens, so concerns about "looking weird" or isolation from family / co-workers isn't an issue here (don't worry, I have a very healthy social life and relationships as well :p )
People clearly want it. Whether they will integrate it into their lives is another question altogether - and one we simply don't know at this stage.
Wanting and needing it at that price point are worlds apart.
 
Why does a product need to solve a problem? Why can’t it just be cool? It is cool. That’s enough for me and several of my friends to buy it
you are fully right - at the end the definition of a need is rather arbitrary anyhow.
 
I think you might want to do some more reading on what experts actually say about VR, AR, and MR (or XR).

Because your definition is far, far too simplistic and “fundie”-like. You’re making the excessively rigid definition that *only* pass through of the “real” would with display tech using pixels that can be transparent can constitute MR. Sorry, but that would appear to be almost exclusively your opinion…

Feel free to be duped by the industry so they can sell you a product. Unlike you I can think for myself and quite simply anything you are not seeing through your own vision, but is a digital reproduction, is VR. Period. It's just patently obvious to anyone capable of critical thinking. MR/XR is another marketing spin term to avoid calling it what it is, VR.
 
I still use firewire all the time, mostly when pulling footage off DV and HDV tapes. Never had an issue with it in 25 years, or heard about it frying equipment, what happened?

That's because you do not actually use Firewire as Apple has implemented it, you use Sony's IEEE 1394a known as iLink with 4 pin on one side and 6 pin on the other side (FW400 6 pin to 4 pin) and as such there is no electric power running through the cable. When you run 6 or 8 pin/conductor on both sides of the cable it means it can power on your external device without a need for an AC adapter. That all sounds so nice in theory but in reality there is a ritual how you hook up the cable and turn on a device in order not to fry your external device. And even then you are not 100% safe that it will not be fried.

Expensive external devices that use firewire 400/800 all come with separate warning sheet of paper which tells you might damage the equipment if you do not follow the ritual, in other words if you hot plug it. I myself have fried multiple audio IO devices and a single RME Fireface has been fried two times (LOL) despite me being super careful. Good news is that you need a new IEEE 1394 chip (texas instruments tsb41ab2) and someone who has balls to solder it onto the PCB and you should be good to go.
 
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$3,499. Too Expensive. Also offers extremely limited mobility.

'By Far the Worst Priced Headset'

In October 1991 Apple launched the PowerBook line (100, 140, and 170).
The prices ranged from $2,500 to $4,600 in 1991 dollars or from $5,600 to $10,300 today. They were a huge success. Oh yeah and they had at most 3 hours of battery life, usually less.

If you think $3,500 is too expensive it shows you have no clue about how the tech world works. This isn’t going to be like the iPhone or the iPod. It won’t be something everyone has at first, just like it took about 2 decades before laptops outpaced desktops in terms of sales. But it will be a success, just like the PowerBook has been.
 
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If you follow Jobs' philosophy, he would have killed the project. It doesn't solve a problem which was his number 1 focus.
It does offer stuff lots of people want and many actually need:
- ultra portable 4k screen
- 3d computing
- unheard of, incredibly direct content interaction.

The last point was Steve's key interest.

Then the main focus for improvement, like with all Apple's products, will be to make the device 'disappear'.
Make it lighter, smaller, improve speed, memory and screen resolution...
Make it less intrusive in interpersonal contact... (it is creepy, I think)
I'm sure there will be room for improving the device's 'disappearing' for tens of years to come, just like the Mac itself.

Also, I can imagine that it will (help) solve issues for people with physical challenges in fantastic ways. It's a small market but with strong needs that can finally be answered at all.
Who knows Steve would have given Steve Hawking the first one on the market for free.
 
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"It's not the thing. It's the thing that gets you to the thing." - Some Fictional TV Character

I can tell you that my vision was never for one company to dominate so much of the consumer landscape. I really wanted to see a future in which independent artists thrived. The reality became quite the opposite. That's where I was wrong. That said, Apple never had it in mind to dominate the music market. That was just a vehicle to sell the hardware that people play their music on, and not just to sell iPods but to give people a reason to buy iMacs (remember, back then they didn't work independently of iTunes).

AppleTV is another example... AppleTV+ subscription revenue is immaterial to their bottom line, but it helps them sell a product class that gives them a greater footprint, and a greater ecosystem with which to make switching costs prohibitive.

My point wasn't so much about Apple dominating, but that they had a massive head start in this area, having the most successful digital music store, the most successful mp3 player and the most successful smartphone.

My guess is that Apple missed that boat for the same reason the iPad is not yet more capable: because they thought it would cannibalise sales of an existing product. They sacrificed the iPod for the iPad, but otherwise they have been very protective of their product lines and so I remain cautious about how revolutionary transformative they'll want VisionOS to be. I assume Apple will want you to buy an iPhone, a watch, an iPad and a Mac, but that is a risk in itself.

That's the thing that matters to Apple, and it's where I think the e commerce thing is headed. Just as cable's fragility (and some novel court decisions) opened the door for motion picture studios to launch their own boutique apps, the fragility of brick and mortar, malls, etc., opens a door for manufacturers to create boutique "experiences" (I hate that word, but I'm sure that's what they'll call them) with different tiers for different levels of clientele.
Nowhere have I called the product a success. I'm simply expressing an opinion that, if I wanted to dox myself I could show you the context, I've been talking about for at least eight years. Honestly, my view was that Google and Apple would have to partner, combining Google's competencies in search, ML/AI, with Apple's UI/UX and hardware expertise, to make it a reality. I'd even explored a version of the idea with the GM of Filmstruck, Jenn Dorian. But at the time, licensing was a big obstacle. We were trying to build the thing, and Apple already has been quite successful at making things that get you to the things. I do think it's extremely relevant what the long game is here, because the short one is not "Apple Vision SE".


"People who are really serious about software should make their own hardware" - Alan Kay​
Ok, here's where I think the confusion is...
This is not a product launch. It's a product announcement at the World Wide Developers Conference. This is that point where they start sending dev kits.

That was my point.

I get that point and it's certainly an interesting technology showcase. However, even if we consider this a dev kit I think we need some kind of idea how this future product that people are actually supposed to buy will look like.

To use your example, why build a cool AR shopping tool the way you describe it for a product no one is likely going to wear outside or even a lot? I'm sure my wife would love your vision for e-commerce, but if I suggested we spend north of £3k on a device that will help her buy clothes she'd have me committed.

I believe we have heard various things an AR/VR headset could be used for once you have one, but not really a strong reason to buy one in the first place and this would depend on whether the immersive ski goggles as a standalone computing device is really Apple's vision for the future or whether they're going to pivot to companion device after all.
 
Wild how much the eye passthrough looks like the helmets from the Silo adaptation on Apple TV. I’d be curious to know how much communication there was — if it was deliberate, that shows some excellent integration across the company.
 
First Mac in 1984 cost $7000 in 2023 dollars. Like the Mac, this is a new platform and Apple filed 5000 patents. Research and development costs money and Apple built the premium possible experience. All things considered, $3.5k is an appropriate price. The price will hold back adoption as it did for the first Mac. A lot of people could not afford them so we rented time on them hourly at local retail computer labs and service centers. Maybe some entrepeneur will do something similar once content is released.
Late 2024: With the actual release of the Vision Pro, Apple announces new “game lounge” extension at major Apple Store locations where users can pay by the hour. Subscriptions available as part of the enhanced Apple One+ family plan. All conveniently charged to your Apple Card.
 
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My point wasn't so much about Apple dominating, but that they had a massive head start in this area, having the most successful digital music store, the most successful mp3 player and the most successful smartphone.

And they still grew their business... One of the key takeaways I've had from Apple over the years is how Jobs took Wayne Gretzky's famous adage, "Skate to where the puck is going to be," and turned it on its head. They move venues, and get all the players on their turf for the home advantage...

By bringing competitors into the smartphone space, they killed the Blackberry and the PDA. Likewise, by changing the venue to Mixed Reality, they immediately move Meta and Microsoft from the front to the back of the pack... and they grow the whole pie.

If this game had stayed in the VR space for gaming, it would be a limited market. But as someone on Reddit pointed out (I believe it was in the pcmasterrace sub), they now exist in people's minds as the device to match in terms of capabilities and experience, so everyone is going to refocus and redefine what the metaverse is, in a way that disadvantages the bigger competitors like Microsoft and Meta who don't have the consumer electronics competencies that Apple does, which brings us to...

To use your example, why build a cool AR shopping tool the way you describe it for a product no one is likely going to wear outside or even a lot? I'm sure my wife would love your vision for e-commerce, but if I suggested we spend north of £3k on a device that will help her buy clothes she'd have me committed.

I believe we have heard various things an AR/VR headset could be used for once you have one, but not really a strong reason to buy one in the first place and this would depend on whether the immersive ski goggles as a standalone computing device is really Apple's vision for the future or whether they're going to pivot to companion device after all.

Remember the $17,000 Hermes Apple Watch? Or the $7500 20th Anniversary Mac? I think of them as concept cars for sale... They're prototypes that ultra-rich people will buy, and Apple will collect tons of real world market research upon which to iterate. There's a lot of sunk cost here that has to be justified to get this tech to where it really needs to be.

I personally have no use for VR/AR (or MR as I call it for simplicity), and I won't until it's in a form factor that can sandwich into a prescription lens no thicker than my PPG Trivex lenses. I don't expect that tech any time soon. And I don't see retail specifically as the holy grail. I see it as a $26 trillion market that will grow to a $40-$50 trillion global market by the time this tech is miniaturized. That's a more enticing argument for growing the capital allocation at the rate necessary to move AR/VR headsets away from novelty and toward necessity in the way smartphones run people's lives today.

Either Apple Vision Pro is going to remain a niche product (and all other AR/VR headsets with it), or the interest it sparks in the possibilities of what AR/VR can be, the use cases and developers that find innovative applications for it, such as no-click purchasing e-commerce (just one example), may drive it to be the N.B.T. I think that's going to take the next 20 years to play out, but it is a far easier way to fund the buildout of the metaverse than focusing on the much smaller worlds of gaming and productivity. People want convenience, and they're willing to pay transactional fees to get it even when the alternative is free... that's what iTunes Store's success in the face of Limewire, Kazaa and Napster proved.

The holy grail I see is something else entirely, and one that is probably closer to 100 years into the future, so I'm only thinking about that next leap for now, which is why retail makes a huge amount of sense... Amazon is only capturing a rounding error's worth of global net sales in retail. So the question from a capital allocation stand point is, over the next 25 years, what's the discounted value of the CAPEX and OPEX spend to acquire even ten percent of that $50 trillion, or about 227 Amazons worth of market dominance? What does that roadmap of spend look like.

Those are the types of questions that Apple CFO Bob Anderson had to consider when Jobs came back on as CEO... and Anderson is widely understood throughout corporate finance in the Valley as the real guy whose restructuring plan gave Apple the roadmap to crawl out from the jaws of near bankruptcy to a place where they had enough runway to develop the iPhone ecosystem.
 
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Rich people aren't going to camp out /line up for this.
Rich people don't have to... 😄

The thing is though, if this this turns out to only be a toy, I think it fails. I think that's why Meta is struggling even at a much lower price point.

This needs to be useful in the way that the iPhone and the Watch turned out more useful that people imagined they would be. My biggest challenge right now is figuring out where it fits, and that's not an easy question for me to answer.

I'd love for it to be my main work computer, but I'm not sure yet if it has the grunt and application support.

It has some overlap with how I use my iPad, but it does not have the pencil input which is one of my main reasons for putting down a laptop and picking up the iPad.

In both cases there are times I want to turn the screen to show it to someone else, and VP can't do that.

I don't want yet another device, so something needs to be replaced.

Maybe I can move toward offsetting some of the cost by replacing a few desktop monitors with it.

That's the trick, in my mind. This can't be a toy, there's no indication there's a market for a toy of this type. It clearly provides real value, and I think it would provide real value in my work and life. But that's not enough, it's competing with other tools that also provide value-- other Apple tools for the most part for me. On balance, will this be the one that I use rather than the others.
 
And they still grew their business... One of the key takeaways I've had from Apple over the years is how Jobs took Wayne Gretzky's famous adage, "Skate to where the puck is going to be," and turned it on its head. They move venues, and get all the players on their turf for the home advantage...

No doubt about that, particularly where they can really lock out the competition with their hardware. Where their services have to compete more freely Apple isn't always that successful. But you're right, this is a hardware first thing so the point stands.

By bringing competitors into the smartphone space, they killed the Blackberry and the PDA. Likewise, by changing the venue to Mixed Reality, they immediately move Meta and Microsoft from the front to the back of the pack... and they grow the whole pie.

If this game had stayed in the VR space for gaming, it would be a limited market. But as someone on Reddit pointed out (I believe it was in the pcmasterrace sub), they now exist in people's minds as the device to match in terms of capabilities and experience, so everyone is going to refocus and redefine what the metaverse is, in a way that disadvantages the bigger competitors like Microsoft and Meta who don't have the consumer electronics competencies that Apple does, which brings us to...

Well, if we put the Apple Kool Aid down we might agree that day 2 following the announcement of a product that isn't yet shipping may be a bit early to proclaim a paradigm shift.

I don't necessarily disagree that AR has tremendous potential, but it remains to be seen if this really puts the competition on the back foot or if Apple's headset receives the same 'yeah, but no' reception like competing products.

Even if AR and computing in a headset is the next big thing, there's no guarantee that Apple will be as strong in this market as it is in the smartphone market. Some here have mentioned the Lisa and the Mac, which were very expensive but set the direction for personal computing and, at least the Mac, were very successful. Apple still almost went broke and Microsoft and boring PC makers won. I'm not saying that's necessarily the trajectory, far from it, I'm just saying even trailblazing innovation doesn't mean you get to keep and own all the benefits. For that we'll have to wait and see.

Either Apple Vision Pro is going to remain a niche product (and all other AR/VR headsets with it), or the interest it sparks in the possibilities of what AR/VR can be, the use cases and developers that find innovative applications for it, such as no-click purchasing e-commerce (just one example), may drive it to be the N.B.T. I think that's going to take the next 20 years to play out, but it is a far easier way to fund the buildout of the metaverse than focusing on the much smaller worlds of gaming and productivity. People want convenience, and they're willing to pay transactional fees to get it even when the alternative is free... that's what iTunes Store's success in the face of Limewire, Kazaa and Napster proved. The holy grail I see is something else entirely, and one that is probably closer to 100 years into the future, so I'm only thinking about that next leap for now, which is why retail makes a huge amount of sense

I don't disagree entirely, but until we actually find that use case that gets people to buy headsets, rather than the incidental uses people may find once they have it, we simply don't know whether the VP fits in the pack or not.

It really depends on what people want to do with these things and then we can talk about whether or not Apple is backing the right horse.

I'm going back to an earlier point I made, which isn't so much directed at you as to the discussion as a whole. People who say this headset will flop and people who say AR/VR is the next big thing can both be right, both be wrong or any combination in between.

I don't think it's sensible to define the success of a product by what it could achieve with speculative future hardware capabilities, but only by what it is. If this is a stepping stone to the future and to a product that will look and feel different and is more affordable than that's great, but it doesn't make the Vision Pro a success. You are completely right that these are valuable products and sometimes you need to just keep going until you get it right.

Personally I don't think this type of glasses will be as transformative as quickly as some think because, at the end of the day, they are still clunky and heavy, you can't really share a movie or watch a game with people, you can't comfortably lounge on the couch (and fall asleep), and while I think having a virtual workspace with lots of screen real estate will be really cool for like a second, the reality of every interaction with your workspace requiring to put on a headset will get very old very quick unless you have a headset that looks like normal glasses or contact lenses.

So we'll see what developers can come up with, particularly once the device gets actually comfortable and affordable (the latter is important because ultimately Apple is trying to position it as a consumer device).
 
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