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Apple vs. French Tax
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this is the first i've heard of these laws... makes me happy here in the US both the gov't and the recording industry are so damn behind on the issue that they still think charging over $20 a CD is the answer...
and as for the 'french bashing' in this topic, i'm pretty sure its just people being sarcastic about the whole "freedom fries" b.s. that popped up last year. i guess sarcasm doesn't travel well on the net. i can't imagine too many bush votes in an apple discussion board for some reason...
and as for the 'french bashing' in this topic, i'm pretty sure its just people being sarcastic about the whole "freedom fries" b.s. that popped up last year. i guess sarcasm doesn't travel well on the net. i can't imagine too many bush votes in an apple discussion board for some reason...
seyo said:
Yes, a music storage device that's used to play legally downloaded music, as well as legitimate music burned from CDs that you bought. It's stupid to tax storage devices. Do they tax headphones? Do they tax blank CDs? (wait, I guess they do tax blank CDs....nevermind).
However, if Apple knew that going in, then they should probably pony up the dough.
This is so stupid. Apple is a U.S. based corporation and has no tax liability in france or any other country. What are they going to do? Close them down!
Not the people... the government
It is important to understand that it is the French socialist government that is under attack here and the French "leaders"
It should not be the people.
I think in these discussions it is important to make that distinction.
I don't think that the French government speaks for the people -- similar to other socialist governments.
Just wanted to get in on this one. Haven't posted in a long while.
Take Care,
Quark
It is important to understand that it is the French socialist government that is under attack here and the French "leaders"
It should not be the people.
I think in these discussions it is important to make that distinction.
I don't think that the French government speaks for the people -- similar to other socialist governments.
Just wanted to get in on this one. Haven't posted in a long while.
Take Care,
Quark
ryanw said:
Those are NOT taxes to lighten piracy effects. This whole issue ha nothing to do with piracy (if that law is similar to Spain's). Those are taxes to relieve a decrease of potential sales when making LEGAL copies of copyrighted works.
Besides, the tax applies to the DESTINATION media, not to the source. Because of that, it is irrelevant how easy/difficult it is to copy copyrighted media FROM the iPod. They are being charged because its primary use is to copy copyrighted media TO the iPod.
Stella said:
Thanks for speaking on my behalf, but I'd rather answer for you. I would applaud the country for not paying a completely asinine tax. and THEN, I would think they should be paying it, because they agreed to trade in our country.
Apple was dumb to ignore this, and the French Gov't is dumb to have such a tax, as is every other country that has a similar tax (including the good ol' US of A)
Mudbug said:I wonder what would happen if I decided to just not pay my taxes this year...
I'd say "Hey - they didn't want to, so they didn't..." and point to this, although I think the IRS auditor might not care so much about the corporate precedent.
Anyone care to try it and report back? I'd do it (sure... right... whatever) but I've already done my taxes for this year. Oh well - there's always next year, right?
IRS has things fairly automated these days. If you don't work for yourself companies submit results to the IRS and the IRS will just send you a bill saying "You owe $X by MM/DD/YYYY or you'll acrue interest at a rate of Y% monthly."
claytonbench said:
according to http://www.webster.com :
Multinational:
2 b : having divisions in more than two countries <a multinational corporation>
So yes, effectively closing them down would be an option. Apple France, that is. Charging a heavier fine would probably be a first step, though.
How about walk out of the French market? An unfair tax is an unfair tax, trying to feed a bloated bureaucracy...can you imagine what the Europeans would say if similar things were done to one of their companies? Or a tax on compact cars for the Japanese? People on this thread act like laws and taxes make sense, are just and should be accepted because some ass politician made it up.
Let france kick them off the shelves, I doubt Apple will go bankrupt because the French can't buy their products.
Let france kick them off the shelves, I doubt Apple will go bankrupt because the French can't buy their products.
First, don't bash the French.
Second, we have a similar tax to this in Canada. I had to pay another $25 with my iPod purchase, although, it wasn't a big deal. Apple includes it in the total cost.
Second, we have a similar tax to this in Canada. I had to pay another $25 with my iPod purchase, although, it wasn't a big deal. Apple includes it in the total cost.
Photorun said:
That's not the type of comment I would expect from someone who has a "bushin30second" link in their sig. Sounds more like something Dubya himself would say behind closed doors.
I find it quite disconcerting the amound of xenophobia that exists in these forums. Particularly coming from so-called "enlightened" mac users.
Amazing how Americans no longer remember that if it wasn't for the support of France in the Revolutionary War, never would have won your independance in the first place. Oh, and I guess the Statue of Liberty is nothing but a gift from those "Effen Frogs"?
maelstromr said:
Welcome to the new world. The US (as the EU and pretty much every other economic region) charges taxes to foreign companies for the very fact of being foreign. Do you agree on that? IMHO, it's not that easy, and that is a very tough question. This case, though, has nothing to do on French laws picking on foreign companies, that law applies to everyone there.
OMG - A Krack Smokin' Whore!
It seems that someone with a brain posted on this subject! Hurrah!
This law makes no sense - it's basically saying that Apple is guilty because they make a product that can HOLD stolen material. Would the French charge a tax on Gucci bags since people put shoplifted items in those bags?
Guns don't kill people - people kill people. Apple doesn't pirate music, a minority of their users do. To make matters more interesting - Apple has introduced a product that actually help support musicians - even FAMOUS French musicians (sorry, can't think of one right now).
"Here's my 10 cents 'cause my 2 cents is free"
It seems that someone with a brain posted on this subject! Hurrah!
This law makes no sense - it's basically saying that Apple is guilty because they make a product that can HOLD stolen material. Would the French charge a tax on Gucci bags since people put shoplifted items in those bags?
Guns don't kill people - people kill people. Apple doesn't pirate music, a minority of their users do. To make matters more interesting - Apple has introduced a product that actually help support musicians - even FAMOUS French musicians (sorry, can't think of one right now).
"Here's my 10 cents 'cause my 2 cents is free"
elmimmo said:
Quite amusing you quoting Spain as an example of paying taxes
I know Spain quite well, I love the place and am emigrating there soon but in fairness I cant think of any locals I know who would dream of buying their music if it was available on Kazaa. Piracy there is a disease second only to a commitment to the cash economy. A shame because people should pay their way so that the likes of Mago de Oz and Fito etc get a few bucks somewhere down the line to keep up the good work.
Would you please learn to read before learning to write. The tax has nothing to do with piracy.Tommy Wasabi said:
Hi Billyboy. I do know that amongs other things, Spaniards are shamefully known for having very little ethics in relation to piracy, a fame that is well deserved I think too. What you are introducing though, is a different debate: do you make laws that refer to one purpose to ephemistically address other ones, or you call things by their names and make laws that do not try to play the game of rethorics. Again, this has nothing to do with piracy IF what we are to make out of the law is what it is explicitely saying , i.e., what are we to understand of it when it says "legal private copy".Billy Boy said:
Not about Piracy??
According to the AP:
"The argument centers on a fee levied in France on sales of blank CDs, tapes, hard disks and other hardware that can be used to copy music. The proceeds go to musicians and other rights holders who lose money to piracy."
Read the article at: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...8&e=5&u=/ap/20040310/ap_on_hi_te/france_apple
It has everything to do with piracy.
elmimmo said:
According to the AP:
"The argument centers on a fee levied in France on sales of blank CDs, tapes, hard disks and other hardware that can be used to copy music. The proceeds go to musicians and other rights holders who lose money to piracy."
Read the article at: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...8&e=5&u=/ap/20040310/ap_on_hi_te/france_apple
It has everything to do with piracy.
Actually, they do have tax liabilities - especially since Apple have a subisdary in france - apple france. If a companies products are sold in a country, that company is liable for the relevant taxes... (barring any loopholes), even over the internet now. The EU recoup sales taxes from US based internet mailing companies on products sold to EU citzens.
Secondly, the french can ban Apple from trading in its country, or even shutdown Apple France, like some one else pointed out.
They (France) can also force all apple products off French shelves.
Yes, even US companies have to abide by local laws...
Secondly, the french can ban Apple from trading in its country, or even shutdown Apple France, like some one else pointed out.
They (France) can also force all apple products off French shelves.
Yes, even US companies have to abide by local laws...
claytonbench said:
Quark said:
I'd say since the people of France democratically elected their "socialist" government, its pretty fair to say they speak for them. Can you say the same thing about the last presidential election?
Simply because a country has a government that you would label "socialist", it doesn't mean they are any less democratic than the US. Despite what you may think, other countries do have the right of self-determination, to democratically elect whomever they see fit.
autrefois
macrumors 65816
Quark said:
The Socialists have not been in power in France for about 2 years now. Although it's good that you aren't directing your comments against all French people (as some people apparently are) you should still make sure you know what you're talking about before posting.
Governments do not always speak for the people, even capitalist ones (gasp). Bush certainly does NOT speak for me. People should avoid making blanket criticisms about other cultures and political systems. The French have bad things and good things, and so do we.
This topic has nothing to do with capitalism versus socialism however, it has to do with Apple apparently thinking they're above the law. If you think corporations should dictate laws, including tax law, then Apple is doing an admirable thing here. If you think officials elected by the people should decide on laws and taxes, then Apple should pay up.
maelstromr said:
Thanks for your wise words. I would never have a bought into Mac if I hadnt spent so much time in FNAC, (French Store) . France is probably one of the countries where Mac is best suited - high prices are the norm, and they have a thing for products that are somewhat idiosynchratic, work well and look good.
Tommy Wasabi said:
You are right, and I must excuse me to you and the forum. I wa extrapolating from the Spainsh law, which i the only one I know something about. However, I will still put the credit of that article on hold, since I have repeatedly seen Spanish press media mistakenly refering to our (Spanish) law a a compensation to piracy which, after reading it, is clearly not. I cannot be certain thi journalist does really know what he is talking about unless someone points me to an online version of that French law (which I could not find).
Again, please excuse the rudeness.
If Apple gets it's hind-parts no-so-kindly removed from the French borders, so you think that there will be some sort of Apple black-market underground fueling the faithful during the drought?
I think that it doesn't matter whether apple likes the tax or not, they should pay it or stop selling ipods to France. If I don't like the IRS's tax can I just not pay it?
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