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Apple vs. French Tax
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Savage Henry
macrumors 65816
whocares said:
I'm assuming it is post-introduction. I still can't see the fuss when it's just another mid-game rules-changing trade barrier. They'd lose more per unit if exchange rates were different.
claytonbench said:
OMG...They aren't pushing their laws on another country!!! They are taxing a type of product that is sold in THEIR country - MP3 players! You are totally missing the point here, buddy. If Apple didn't pay this tax, it would have an unfair advantage over all the other companies selling MP3 players in France who were paying the tax, and as a result had to raise their prices by 25 euros! And how can you say foreign companies should not be taxed!? So you think that Hondas should be exempt from sales tax, gas tax, environment tax, etc. in the US? You don't think that would affect domestic business when Honda is selling their cars tax free, while GM has to charge thousands more because it is an American company? What are you smoking?
Fact: Apple has decided to do business and make profit in France.
Fact: Apple has a subsidiary in France, Apple France.
Fact: France has passed a law that puts a 25 euro tax on ALL hard drive based MP3 players.
Fact: Apple sells a hard drive based MP3 player in France.
Fact: France (and any country for that matter) can tax any product any way it damn well pleases so long as it is done fairly and across the board.
Fact: If Apple wants to sell iPods in France, it must pay the tax.
People, they are not specifically targeting the iPod! They are taxing all MP3 players as a way to recover money they beleive is lost due to piracy. The fact that that idea is silly does not negate the Rule of Law. Anyways, do you think Apple is going to let the tax cut into their profit? Hell no! They will simply up the price 25 euros! If anything, it will only hurt the people of France, who will be hit with an even higher cost for an iPod. If it is really that unpopular, the people of France can complain to their government. It is really none of your concern!
I just don't understand any of this fee we pay here in urop for copyrights or what ever ... what happens if I memorise a song? do I have to pay tax over that too?
So I buy a song (pay for rights) then I copy it to my iPod (I pay rights again) then I back it up on a DVD (I pay rights again) well **** all the rights... I Just don't want any more of these rules, rights and taxes, I just want my right to live, enjoy music & art and be happy 🙂 lol
So I buy a song (pay for rights) then I copy it to my iPod (I pay rights again) then I back it up on a DVD (I pay rights again) well **** all the rights... I Just don't want any more of these rules, rights and taxes, I just want my right to live, enjoy music & art and be happy 🙂 lol
billyboy said:
Good point, in fact I remember seeing a Virgin Megastore selling Mac Games with a big Apple logo in the window, you wouldn't dream of seeing this in the UK, also from what I remember a lot of the computer shops had lots of mac stuff, bit like the ones on Tottenham Court Road, London.
The Cheat said:
It is included in the cost and you pay it, Apple doesn't pay the tax the tax is added on and you pay for it.
IndyGopher
macrumors 6502a
If the intent of the tax is, as reported, to make sure that artists get paid for work that is pirated, and the money comes from everyone, pirate and non-pirate alike, then the goal is to share the wealth evenly.. which sounds a lot like socialism.. which means.. Tada.. blame socialism.bar italia said:
We paid our dues in WWII and have earned the right the refer to the French any way we want. The references usually fit.
The Cheat said:
Sold from Ireland?
Apple surely has the right to oppose any law or tax that they think is not applicable. If they think that this tax does not apply to their products, they can fight about it in court. Everybody has the power to oppose the execution of the law if they have reasonable arguments why that law does not apply, that is the basic concept of a democratic justice system.
Apple products in France are sold from stores that are not run by Apple, except for the online store. So it might be that the resellers are mostly responsible for the tax, I don't know.
Another fact that might be interesting is that on the sales receipt of the Apple Online Store in France, the address of Apple Ireland is used. It could well be that the french are buying a product from an Irish company. In that case, Irish law and taxes should apply for end-users. Although I doubt that because they apply 19.6% sales tax, the french percentage. European trading laws are not that clear anyway, neither is Apple in stating which post address one is dealing with...
Finally: For all the people who think that France is in anyway less democratic or free than the US, come and live here for a while. France is one of the rare countries in the world where freedom, respect and privacy are not hollow concepts. Although they have a peculiar way of management and are sometimes a bit clumsy in international communication due to less than comfortable english language skills, their society is one the most humane I have encountered so far. I have been living here for a few years now.
From Paris, Joep
Apple surely has the right to oppose any law or tax that they think is not applicable. If they think that this tax does not apply to their products, they can fight about it in court. Everybody has the power to oppose the execution of the law if they have reasonable arguments why that law does not apply, that is the basic concept of a democratic justice system.
Apple products in France are sold from stores that are not run by Apple, except for the online store. So it might be that the resellers are mostly responsible for the tax, I don't know.
Another fact that might be interesting is that on the sales receipt of the Apple Online Store in France, the address of Apple Ireland is used. It could well be that the french are buying a product from an Irish company. In that case, Irish law and taxes should apply for end-users. Although I doubt that because they apply 19.6% sales tax, the french percentage. European trading laws are not that clear anyway, neither is Apple in stating which post address one is dealing with...
Finally: For all the people who think that France is in anyway less democratic or free than the US, come and live here for a while. France is one of the rare countries in the world where freedom, respect and privacy are not hollow concepts. Although they have a peculiar way of management and are sometimes a bit clumsy in international communication due to less than comfortable english language skills, their society is one the most humane I have encountered so far. I have been living here for a few years now.
From Paris, Joep
France? (retch)
Please. Those miniscule debts were paid a thousand times over in American blood. As you have effectively pointed out, the French government and intelligentsia have done nothing but turn up their noses at the US for over a hundred years, while the US has pulled France's behind from the flames again and again. It's the French and other 3rd-rate Eurotrash that so loftily claim to be enlightened, not the US "cowboys".
Nobody would miss France if it disappeared. Least of all the French.
The Cheat said:
Please. Those miniscule debts were paid a thousand times over in American blood. As you have effectively pointed out, the French government and intelligentsia have done nothing but turn up their noses at the US for over a hundred years, while the US has pulled France's behind from the flames again and again. It's the French and other 3rd-rate Eurotrash that so loftily claim to be enlightened, not the US "cowboys".
Nobody would miss France if it disappeared. Least of all the French.
Tiauguinho
macrumors 6502a
claytonbench said:
Don't know about KS, but in California the state government recently added a line to the state tax return where you are supposed to declare the amount of use tax you owe on mail order and internet purchases. You do check everything for correctness before you sign your tax returns, don't you?
I don't know the whole story, but it seems odd that Apple has not been paying the levy because it is usually the responsibility of the importer (Apple France) to pay it.
There are more than 25 countries, including the U.S. which charge a copyright levy on blank media. The reason that it is not so obvious in the U.S. is because the law has not been updated since 1994 and therefore it only applies to DAT and CD-R Audio.
In Canada the levy seems to be updated annually, and actually makes it legal to copy someone else's music off of the internet or a CD or whatever. We can legally download or copy someone else's music but not legally upload/distribute music.
The levy in Canada is as follows:
- Audio cassettes (of 40 minutes or more in length): 29¢ each
- CD-R and CD-RW: 21¢ each
- CD-R Audio, CD-RW Audio and MiniDisc: 77¢ each
- For non-removable memory permanently embedded in a digital audio recorder: $2 for each recorder that can record no more than 1 Gb of data, $15 for each recorder that can record more than 1 Gb and no more than 10*Gbs of data, and $25 for each recorder that can record more than 10*Gbs of data.
Recordable and rewritable DVDs, removable memory cards (such as SmartMedia, CompactFlash and Secure Digital Memory cards), removable micro hard drives, Digital Audio Tape (DAT) and micro-cassettes are considered to be not typically used by individuals for copying music for private use and, therefore, are not subject to a levy.
So our iPods have a $25 levy, the Apple Canada website even states that. When the ipodmini arrives it will have a $15 levy.
There are more than 25 countries, including the U.S. which charge a copyright levy on blank media. The reason that it is not so obvious in the U.S. is because the law has not been updated since 1994 and therefore it only applies to DAT and CD-R Audio.
In Canada the levy seems to be updated annually, and actually makes it legal to copy someone else's music off of the internet or a CD or whatever. We can legally download or copy someone else's music but not legally upload/distribute music.
The levy in Canada is as follows:
- Audio cassettes (of 40 minutes or more in length): 29¢ each
- CD-R and CD-RW: 21¢ each
- CD-R Audio, CD-RW Audio and MiniDisc: 77¢ each
- For non-removable memory permanently embedded in a digital audio recorder: $2 for each recorder that can record no more than 1 Gb of data, $15 for each recorder that can record more than 1 Gb and no more than 10*Gbs of data, and $25 for each recorder that can record more than 10*Gbs of data.
Recordable and rewritable DVDs, removable memory cards (such as SmartMedia, CompactFlash and Secure Digital Memory cards), removable micro hard drives, Digital Audio Tape (DAT) and micro-cassettes are considered to be not typically used by individuals for copying music for private use and, therefore, are not subject to a levy.
So our iPods have a $25 levy, the Apple Canada website even states that. When the ipodmini arrives it will have a $15 levy.
The Cheat: thank you for your posts -- I completely agree.
As for those who want to bash the French . . . go use a PC, or grow up.
It's simple, you want to do business in France, abide by French laws. Same goes for every other country in the world.
One last thing: as far as the French go, any country that can produce Burgundy, Juliette Binoche and the croissant can't be all bad. And by the way, the Socialist are not in power in France. But based on Chirac's performance, they may be back before you know it. Live with it.
As for those who want to bash the French . . . go use a PC, or grow up.
It's simple, you want to do business in France, abide by French laws. Same goes for every other country in the world.
One last thing: as far as the French go, any country that can produce Burgundy, Juliette Binoche and the croissant can't be all bad. And by the way, the Socialist are not in power in France. But based on Chirac's performance, they may be back before you know it. Live with it.
autrefois
macrumors 65816
splashman said:
Can we please get back on the topic of Apple and/or the tax, instead of deciding which societies should or shouldn't magically vanish from the face of the Earth? You don't know how bad this is making Americans look...
Here's something we can discuss instead:
The article says "The French royalties levy was first introduced in 1985 and was extended in July 2002 to cover hard disks built into music players, which incur levies in proportion to their memory capacity."
The law was extended in July 2002. This is after the iPod was introduced, if I'm not mistaken. Was it because of the iPod that the law was extended? In which case, Apple might have a very good reason to fight the law in French courts if it feels it was unfairly targeted (instead of just deciding not to pay it).
Another discussion possibility: Nek has pointed out that apparently 25 countries charge some sort of tax on blank media, including the US.
We can either try to track down the list of all these countries and attack all their people, governments, and cultures, or discuss whether or not 1) the taxes serve their apparent purpose (protecting artists) and 2) whether or not Apple should decide that it's paying the tax in one country (including Canada apparently) and not another.
One last hypothetical situation to discuss: Since people are happy about iTunes allowing people to legally buy music and support artists, why is it OK for Apple to illegally not pay taxes that would also support artists? Wouldn't it be funny if we found out that that is part of the reason millions of Europeans are having to wait and wait for iTunes Europe??
Splashman, when you grow up, and decide that a trip to Paris is in order, I hope you are stopped at customs and presented with a transcript of your post.
Ouch...
21 cents CAD for a CD-R? Ouch... That's like a 200% tax. I've never paid more than about 5-10 cents USD for a regular CD-R. Actually I rarely pay for CD-Rs at all since every week there is at least one store giving away a 100 pack free after rebate.
nek said:
21 cents CAD for a CD-R? Ouch... That's like a 200% tax. I've never paid more than about 5-10 cents USD for a regular CD-R. Actually I rarely pay for CD-Rs at all since every week there is at least one store giving away a 100 pack free after rebate.
Counterfit
macrumors G3
Are any of you guys familiar with civil disobedience? One of the best ways to follow a law that you think is unfair (riding in the back of the bus due to race, lack of equal rights in any sense, or drug use etc.) is to not follow that particular law. It worked for Martin Luther King Jr., who helped fight some extremely unfair laws, and eventually (and posthumously) had them declared illegal due to the Civil Rights Act. This is similar, as Apple disagrees with the intent and execution of the tax, and therefore refuses to follow it.
Er, not quite. The tax is 10 on 5GB-39GB players, and 20 on 40GB+ players.
HA! That reminds me of some graffiti I saw at the top of the Eiffel Tower. It was Chirac smoking a joint 😎 Probably gone by now, that was almost two years ago. But the view from up there is AMAZING!
damn you're dumbclaytonbench said:
When you sell in a foreign country, you abide by their laws. It is common sense. Sure, maybe the French could mail order from the US, and have to deal with customs charges and the massive delay in shipping (then again, Apple shipping speed is a joke already), but Apple would have no native presence. Apple wants a native presence - therefore they abide by local law.
Trip to Paris? <retch>
[copy-paste from previous post]
Ha ha ha ha har har <snort> <giggle> har har
[/copy-paste]
A trip to Paris? For what? To accept their surrender?
Please, my sides are aching from laughing so hard! Have mercy on a po' white trash 'merican!
numediaman said:
[copy-paste from previous post]
Ha ha ha ha har har <snort> <giggle> har har
[/copy-paste]
A trip to Paris? For what? To accept their surrender?
Please, my sides are aching from laughing so hard! Have mercy on a po' white trash 'merican!
splashman said:
Better than fatty sub-par fast food, fat obnoxious people and a skill at making the rest of the world (of which you only supply 6% of the population) think that you are a bunch of international bullies and who detest you because of it.
The French are generally nice, if opinionated, people. Their election system sucks though (but hey, you American's can't take the piss out of that given your last election) because of the two stage process which put Chirac up against a fascist nationalist. Yeah, they make good wine, nice food, etc. Oh, unfortunately they smoke like chimneys. And hate Americans.
All Such Punitive Taxes Are Bad...
...therefore Apple should not pay it. I think its really courageous of Apple to take a stand against this type of egregious misuse of government power. Companies like Apple should be free to do business with the citizens of France as they wish. If the French people truly object to Apple's refusal to pay this tax then they will simply stop buying Apple products, yes? Apple, in turn, will either acquiesce or accept the loss of the French market.
Why do the courts and the government need to become involved?
France is home to a wise and cultured people. I scarcely think they need some private bureaucrat to fend for them.
...therefore Apple should not pay it. I think its really courageous of Apple to take a stand against this type of egregious misuse of government power. Companies like Apple should be free to do business with the citizens of France as they wish. If the French people truly object to Apple's refusal to pay this tax then they will simply stop buying Apple products, yes? Apple, in turn, will either acquiesce or accept the loss of the French market.
Why do the courts and the government need to become involved?
France is home to a wise and cultured people. I scarcely think they need some private bureaucrat to fend for them.
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