Apple Watch Leather Bands May Be Discontinued for Series 9

[onenorth]

What is the point of saving a few animals if we're killing the planet anyway?

A lot of handwringing over cows while we breathlessly await the mass production of the next iPhone and the corresponding disposal of old ones. Did someone say lithium mining?

 

[nathansz]

I don't wear leather, so I don't know any.
However, my point was that Apple's bands are more expensive _and_ have better quality,
just like Hermes bands have higher quality and command a higher price.
My argument is that the high price includes quite some markup induced by the brand / luxury value,
in addition to the better quality.

Indeed,

Most of the mark up is simply the brand name.

What people refer to as “knock offs” in many cases are the exact same product from the exact same manufacturer that was diverted before it was branded and packaged.

 

[nathansz]

What is the point of saving a few animals if we're killing the planet anyway?

A lot of handwringing over cows while we breathlessly await the mass production of the next iPhone and the corresponding disposal of old ones. Did someone say lithium mining?

Because non-human animals are conscious beings deserving of the same rights and protections as human animals

 

[coredev]

What people refer to as “knock offs” in many cases are the exact same product from the exact same manufacturer that was diverted before it was branded and packaged.

Not true for Apple Watch bands. I ordered quite some "3rd party" bands from Chinese sellers, and all of them were inferior compared to OEM bands. Apart from optical differences (including the laser engraved markings), there's

• bad fit of the watch connectors (too tight, too loose)
• different thinner material, especially for the solo loops
• use of glued on plastic connectors instead of metal for Braided Solo Loops
• very unclean seams on the fabric bands
• for the new Ultra bands, they mostly only kinda look the same, but make is very different
• general chemical smell of the bands

There are many sellers with sometimes enormous differences in price, but no one has the quality Apple has.

 

[DeepWebinar]

I have a few Hermès leather bands and okay if they found an alternative.

oh sorry, there isn’t room for a nuanced reaction here. this is one of those topics where you have to get really mad and defensive. 😤

but in all seriousness, this comment is such a reasonable response to this story. i wish more people had this kind of reaction, but people get sooooo defensive when it comes to animal products.

 

[onenorth]

Because non-human animals are conscious beings deserving of the same rights and protections as human animals

Including the humans being exploited to produce Apple products?

 

[coredev]

Including the humans being exploited to produce Apple products?

Absolutely.

 

[DeepWebinar]

Please let us leather fans alone. Why are there always some radical groups that want to force the decisions of others. Like there is only one right answer. I for example prefer eco friendly tanned leather that is disposable. I fully understand vegans and would never try to change their beliefs or would try to convince them to use natural products. Every vegan I know is like a preacher -.-

wow someone told you they have a different respect for animals and that hurt your feelings. that is so hard, i’m so sorry. are you okay?? it’s true, these imaginary radical vegans are so ruthless and selfish. because yeah, that sounds right, all vegans are militant radical preachers. that’s not just a tired trope from like 90’s television. this is so sad i’m crying 😭😭😭

 

[nathansz]

Including the humans being exploited to produce Apple products?

Indeed

 

[onenorth]

Absolutely.

Suggestions on how to make that happen beyond virtue signaling?

 

[coredev]

Suggestions on how to make that happen beyond virtue signaling?

AFAIK Apple has standards for their production partners and at least attempts to verify that they are met.
When it comes to mining, Apple works to use as much recycled materials as possible.

It's not perfect. Apple cannot control everything in their supply chain. There are bad actors in every business.

However when it comes to industrialized animal farming, be it for meat or leather,
there are _only_ bad actors, all the animals end up dying one way or the other.
Apple cannot stop that, but they can stop using leather.

 

[nathansz]

Suggestions on how to make that happen beyond virtue signaling?

I’m not sure that pointing out that slaughtering animals for food and fashion obligates one to come up with solutions to all of the other ills of modern global feudal capitalism

 

[AppleUser2]

Exactly. If the animal is going to be killed anyway, why not respect the animal and utilize the entirety? Don't discard something that can be of use; Native Amercicans showed us the way ages ago. It's just like the elimination of plastic bags in retail; it makes you feel like an eco-warrior but in reality does more harm than good.

Yeah. 1. Animal killled. 2. Cow killed at 18 months when would normally live for 15 years. Respect is nowhere to be seen.

 

[AppleUser2]

In what world do you think that these are the same thing? It is baffling. Before you start using the words ‘dumb’ & ‘brainwashed’, I strongly urge you to do some research.

Let me help you with some research:

The meat industry and the harms it causes animals

Animals raised for meat suffer immensely and lack legal protection. Learn about the cruelty of the meat industry and use your power to demand its end.

animalequality.org

 

[onenorth]

AFAIK Apple has standards for their production partners and at least attempts to verify that they are met.
When it comes to mining, Apple works to use as much recycled materials as possible.

It's not perfect. Apple cannot control everything in their supply chain. There are bad actors in every business.

However when it comes to industrialized animal farming, be it for meat or leather,
there are _only_ bad actors, all the animals end up dying one way or the other.
Apple cannot stop that, but they can stop using leather.

Maybe the problem is on the demand side of the equation. That is why I don't understand all of the handwringing over cows while we all get excited for the new phones and all of the issues that arise from that. Selective outrage for animals but not the humans involved in the supply chain? The whole thing about the leather is just a distraction from the bigger issues.

 

[onenorth]

I’m not sure that pointing out that slaughtering animals for food and fashion obligates one to come up with solutions to all of the other ills of modern global feudal capitalism

Complaints without solutions are not particularly helpful. Point made, and I agree with it. So now what should we do about it? Let's start a discussion and not virtue signal and then claim it is too big of a problem to solve. Apple dropping leather is not going to amount to a hill of beans because they use so little of it and the effects will be unquantifiable. But there are other things that can have a greater impact, such as not making their products have such short lifespans or encouraging annual upgrades with new products in the pursuit of shareholder profits. In the grand scheme of things, leather is not the top concern, not even close.

Humans lived for millennia without iPhones, but relied on livestock for food, transport, and farming. Now we flip the script and say we no longer need the livestock but can't live without the environmentally damaging tech? I'm having a hard time feeling good about Apple's decision here. Auto makers use far more leather than Apple does.

 

[AppleUser2]

Thankfully (for me anyway) it doesn't matter what we on this forum think or any of the above debates. Looks like Apple have (in my opinion) made the right choice. We can post as much as we like on our respective arguments...won't change what they will do.

 

[nathansz]

Complaints without solutions are not particularly helpful. Point made, and I agree with it. So now what should we do about it? Let's start a discussion and not virtue signal and then claim it is too big of a problem to solve. Apple dropping leather is not going to amount to a hill of beans because they use so little of it and the effects will be unquantifiable. But there are other things that can have a greater impact, such as not making their products have such short lifespans or encouraging annual upgrades with new products in the pursuit of shareholder profits. In the grand scheme of things, leather is not the top concern, not even close.

Humans lived for millennia without iPhones, but relied on livestock for food, transport, and farming. Now we flip the script and say we no longer need the livestock but can't live without the environmentally damaging tech? I'm having a hard time feeling good about Apple's decision here. Auto makers use far more leather than Apple does.

I hope you aren’t taking me to be a cheerleader for Apple

I’m merely saying that not raising animals for slaughter is good. Anyone getting out of that business for whatever reason is an undeniable good, regardless of how small that good may be (everything is quantifiable, whether you think the quantity is enough to bother talking about is up for debate.)

 

[SFjohn]

These studies have been debunked or at best are misunderstood

Plants are reactive and perhaps have cognition but are likely not conscious

The Journal of Consciousness studies had an entire special issue on plant consciousness. It’s quite interesting.

We are only beginning to understand how plants function, it was once thought that only humans had consciousness (some still believe that). Birth, life, death is the cycle of everything whether its humans, animals or plants. Plants may not have a brain & nervous system like we do, but that doesn’t prove they don’t feel pain, distress, etc. 🤔

 

[SFjohn]

If you believe this you should be happy that Apple is using more and more synthetic materials for their cases and watch bands.

But seriously, these studies exist, but have long been debunked by many other studies, see (1).
They come up frequently to justify our industrialized slaughter of animals, but they are wrong anyway.

Plants don't have a nervous system or pain receptors and no brain similar to that of an animal.
It is proven that animals (especially those used for food and leather) feel pain pretty much the same way we humans do, but the same cannot be said for plants.
If you think plants feel pain, then every trimming of the lawn is a massacre.

(1) https://www.britannica.com/story/do-plants-feel-pain
(*) https://sentientmedia.org/do-plants-feel-pain

We are only beginning to understand how plants function, it was once thought that only humans had consciousness (some still believe that). Birth, life, death is the cycle of everything whether its humans, animals or plants. Plants may not have a brain & nervous system like we do, but that doesn’t prove they don’t feel pain, distress, etc. 🤔

 

[nathansz]

We are only beginning to understand how plants function, it was once thought that only humans had consciousness (some still believe that). Birth, life, death is the cycle of everything whether its humans, animals or plants. Plants may not have a brain & nervous system like we do, but that doesn’t prove they don’t feel pain, distress, etc. 🤔

Indeed, not having neurons certainly does not prove that plants do not have consciousness.

As a matter of current scientific research and philosophical debate, however, it seems unlikely at best. This would be difficult to explain simply if you don’t already have a background understanding in consciousness studies.

Having said that, we do know with as close as is possible to certainty, that non human animals are conscious and feel pain and distress exactly as we do. This is why it is incumbent upon us to avoid causing them such pain and distress

 

[mectojic]

This lines up with the recent leak that they're going green and sustainable across their iPhone lines with the "R" phone.

 

[robbietop]

True. Just like clothes have been made and food prepared for thousands of years.
That does not mean that industrial production of today is in any way comparable to what people did in the very early days of mankind.

We're totally gonna save the environment by removing the leather option from a 3 trillion dollar company.

90% of carbon emissions and environmental waste in the tech sector come from the device and its packaging itself, not an optional accessory.

 

[coredev]

We're totally gonna save the environment by removing the leather option from a 3 trillion dollar company.

90% of carbon emissions and environmental waste in the tech sector come from the device and its packaging itself, not an optional accessory.

We are absolutely not gonna save anything if we don’t start somewhere.

 

[robbietop]

We are absolutely not gonna save anything if we don’t start somewhere.

The UK could disappear tomorrow and from a climate standpoint, nothing would improve. The entirety of England, Scotland, and Ireland could sink into the ocean and it would not affect Climate Change in any way.

85% of CO2 emissions are in BRICS countries.