Apple Working on Software Fix to Avoid U.S. Apple Watch Import Ban

[GuruZac]

It can be useful for potential Sleep Apnea patterning as well as COPD monitoring, amongst other things.

Oh of course, that was just about the only example I can think of.

As someone with a history of sleep apnea (I’m waiting on a pulmonology appointment to determine whether I still have it post-weight loss), I get the impression that it’s probably not good enough for me to use as a sleep air quality tracker (I don’t yet have a sleep watch with the feature, I only upgraded to a watch with it earlier this year). It’s more useful for a quick check in, I’d guess. And I’d imagine whatever technique Apple uses for blood pressure or blood glucose probably won’t replace a blood pressure cuff or a glucose monitor, either. Good enough maybe for people without specific health concerns, but probably not good enough for people with a medical need.

My brother is a pulmonologist/critical care doc, and he does sleep medicine as well. In his experience, barring the rare congenital anatomic based obstructions in airway, nearly all of his sleep apnea patients are obese -> morbidly obese. And in nearly every case, once the weight is gone, people begin breathing more naturally, through their nose, and the apnea resolves. I hope you are in the clear and wish you all the best with your health journey.

 

[Apple_Robert]

So yeah, I’m gonna go ahead and turn off autoupdate and wait this one out.

I would also turn off Automatic App Install, in case Apple makes changes to the app itself.

 

[jonnyb098]

Wait, can someone explain why the Apple Watch Series 9 and Ultra 2 are affected by this ban, and not the earlier models that also have the Sp02 sensor? I don't understand.

Because those aren’t sold anymore as new. Anything sold is old back stock.

 

[GMShadow]

Masimo’s patents all seem pretty trivial. Stuff like putting a cover over a sensor to block light. An oxygen sensor literally just looks at how red your blood is with a light sensor. Less red, less oxygen. That part can’t even be patented because the technology is 50 years old. I wonder if Apple is switching to analyzing sensor data with Neural Engine instead of more straightforward approaches.

Most of their patents at issue were even invalidated, yes.

If any of this were the case - how come the ITC did what it did? You should also do some more research on Masimo…

You really think regulators are smart?


To those saying "just pay" Masimo wants 1.8 billion dollars *and* co-ownership of all of Apple's patents on this. Masimo's 2022 total revenue was 1.2 billion.

This is not about being 'made whole', this is about being a leech.

Masimo also has their own garbage wearable they're trying to launch - perhaps Apple should look into the likely infringements made by that device.

 

[jonnyb098]

Most of their patents at issue were even invalidated, yes.



You really think regulators are smart?


To those saying "just pay" Masimo wants 1.8 billion dollars *and* co-ownership of all of Apple's patents on this. Masimo's 2022 total revenue was 1.2 billion.

This is not about being 'made whole', this is about being a leech.

Masimo also has their own garbage wearable they're trying to launch - perhaps Apple should look into the likely infringements made by that device.

Exactly, pick whatever 3-letter agency/group you wish. They aren’t smart….simply powerful.

 

[hagjohn]

Outside of those with pulmonary disease or the extreme hiker/mountain climber, I can’t imagine how the pulse ox is useful day to day. I’ve never used mine on my Ultra and I’m not sure most of my peers with Series 6 and up watches are even aware of the feature.

It could be useful to indicate there is a health issue if your oxygen level drops quickly.

 

[macken]

That’s down to using a sensor on the same side of your body as the light source. You have to do less precise things like measure backscatter. Which is why I doubt Masimo really had significant research into the specific techniques Apple is using, I guarantee all of Masimo’s hardware goes the more conventional route of shining a light through your body. I do wonder how enforceable their patents in general are, though, considering that the basic idea of a pulse oximeter isn’t covered under patent anymore.

Per the New York Times,

Apple to Pause Selling New Versions of Its Watch After Losing Patent Dispute

The move, which comes after a ruling by the International Trade Commission, could create a run on watch sales in the week before Christmas.

www.nytimes.com

Apple has asked President Biden to veto the ITC decision. Masimo had a patent for their hardware technology to calculate blood oxygen levels, and had incorporated this technology in an FDA-approved medical watch. Apple has not gotten FDA approval for their approach to measuring blood oxygen levels. It sounds like the founder wants to get paid and I’m sure he’s pissed ar Apple trying to go around him by poaching employees and having the poached CTO to file their own patents for this technology. I wonder how Apple is going to have a software fix to neuter the patented and allegedly stolen technology in the AW9 and Ultra2 while still providing accurate blood oxygen data.

Here is the take from TheRegister.co.uk

Patent fight loss means no more Apple Watches on shelves

Get those holiday orders wrapped up now, because the bell tolls for iStrap

www.theregister.com

 

[4nNtt]

They specialize in this, their algorithms are proprietary, their sensors work on reduced peripheral blood flow and other factors like continuous movement and so on. Their products consistently monitor O2 better than competitor products and Apple basically poached their employees and executives in order to learn how to do it similarly, lol.

This is conjecture. The case has nothing to do with algorithms or employee IP theft.

The case is about Apple violating the patent 10,945,648 issued in 2021. Largely about the physical properties of the sensor shape and components. This was also after Apple released an Apple Watch with an oxygen sensor in 2020. The issue was on claims 24 and 30 according to IP Watch Dog. I just looked them up.

#12 - A watch shaped device that measure blood oxygen.
#24 - The sensor protrusion uses an opaque material configured to prevent light piping.
#30 - The sensor protrusion has chamfered edges.

I have no idea how either is changed in software. Maybe Apple adapts manufacturing a bit for new watches?

I’m an engineer, not a lawyer so I don’t know enough about how these things go but this feels trivial to me. Maybe Apple thought so too and that they would be struck down. If I’m missing anything about the ruling please clarify.

EDIT: Looks like they added claims from a second patent (issued in 2021, filed 9/24/2020) added to the case in October: 10,912,502. Apple released their blood oxygen sensor 9/7/2020. I can’t find any other claims added to the dispute.

The claims in this patent are:

#22 - The sensor has at least 4 emitters and 3 LEDs.
#28 - This one is lengthy. Basically: Each emitter uses a different wavelength of light. There is a temperature sensor. The sensor protrusion conforms skin to a concave shape. The sensor housing has a cavity to contain the LEDs. The sensor is attached to a microprocessor. The processor is attached to a network, a display, and storage. A strap attaches the device to the user.

These 5 claims were the only ones not struck down. 12, 22, and 28 were originally struck down as trivial then added back in recently.

How is this not prior art or trivial? How are they even valid since the patents were filed after Apple released their sensor?

See for yourself at patents.google.com. The claims are at the very end of the filing.

 

[kc9hzn]

Virtually every doctor I go to tests oxygen level in this way.

They do seem to take readings of it as part of typical vitals these days. But the devices they use for it are generally $20 clip on pulse oximeters. I did have one (that broke) that did continuous readings and would sync back to my phone via Bluetooth (intended for tracking sleep disruptions due to sleep apnea) that was substantially more expensive ($150). But yeah, maybe short of asthma, sleep apnea, hypoxia, or carbon monoxide poisoning, I’m hard pressed to think of why it’s considered as essential as blood pressure, temperature, and weight. I’m guessing it’s because it’s simple to capture and doesn’t hurt (and most pulse oximeters will also give you a pulse/heart rate readout, which might be the info the nurse really wants).

 

[kc9hzn]

This is conjecture. The case is about Apple violating the patent 10,945,648 issued in 2021. I’m not sure the specific points, but this patent swings between very trivial and prior art. This was also after Apple released an Apple Watch with an oxygen sensor.

It does look like the Apple Watch itself could be considered prior art for that patent, let alone the specifics of blood oxygenation detection. And yes, the patent in question is just about a device that can do non-invasive observations of various measurements. They show engineering drawings of pulse oximeters in the filing and describe devices very much like existing pulse oximeters. There’s nothing in that particular patent about methods or algorithms.

 

[CMoore515]

I used this last week when I was sick just to see...

Before that the only other time I used it was when I had Covid and was constantly monitoring cause I could tell my breathing was off.

 

[JapanApple]

Since it doesn't measure like larger-scale medical equipment. not life-threatening. Since it is for casual use of measurements. its matter no meaningful way.

 

[GuruZac]

It could be useful to indicate there is a health issue if your oxygen level drops quickly.

Perhaps, maybe with pneumonia, PEs, but presumably you would be very symptomatic and would otherwise have sought medical treatment.

 

[sw1tcher]

Change the algorithms and patented methods used to avoid patent infringement. Apple will do everything it can to keep selling the Apple Watch...

Apple will do everything but pay to license the patents 🤣

 

[Glavin]

"[Jobs] also hated the oxygen monitor they put on his finger. He told them it was ugly and too complex. He suggested ways it could be designed more simply."

From Walter Isaacson’s Steve Jobs

 

[frenchcamp49er]

They probably already have a fix.

 

[Robert.Walter]

Because they want over $100 per watch. That's why Apple has been fighting; there's a ton of bad blood between Apple and Masimo because Apple poached a whole bunch of their staff.

Best defense against poaching is pay your staff market rates.

 

[1129846]

Best defense against poaching is pay your staff market rates.

The thing is Apple like the other FAANGs tend to pay way and I mean way above market rate.

There is market rate and then their is FAANG rate and trust me 2 very different numbers. Apple is on the lower end of the pay scale for the FAANGs and most companies just can not compete.

 

[tjx]

This is conjecture. The case has nothing to do with algorithms or employee IP theft.

The case is about Apple violating the patent 10,945,648 issued in 2021. This was also after Apple released an Apple Watch with an oxygen sensor in 2020. The issue was on claims 24 and 30 according to IP Watch Dog. I just looked them up.

#24 - The sensor protrusion uses an opaque material configured to prevent light piping.
#30 - The sensor protrusion has chamfered edges.

I have no idea how either is changed in software. Maybe Apple adapts manufacturing a bit for new watches?

I’m an engineer, not a lawyer so I don’t know enough about how these things go but this feels trivial to me. Maybe Apple thought so too and that they would be struck down. If I’m missing anything about the ruling please clarify.

EDIT: Looks like they added claims from a second patent (issued in 2021, filed 9/24/2020) added to the case in October: 10,912,502. Apple released their blood oxygen sensor 9/7/2020.

The claims in this patent are:

#22 - The sensor has at least 4 emitters and 3 LEDs.
#28 - This one is lengthy. Basically: Each emitter uses a different wavelength of light. There is a temperature sensor. The sensor protrusion conforms skin to a concave shape. The sensor housing has a cavity to contain the LEDs. The sensor is attached to a microprocessor. The processor is attached to a network, a display, and storage. A strap attaches the device to the user.

These 4 claims were the only ones not struck down.

How is this not prior art or trivial? How are they even valid since the patents were filed after Apple released their sensor?

Note that the 2021 dates you mention are when they were issued, not filed, and the patents were continuations of previously filed patents. If it were really the case that the apple watch six had all of the elements in the lawsuit and were completed prior to the patent filing, apple would have an easy case I would think.

It also seems like they are more complicated than you are implying, for example:

10,912,502 - https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/3d/82/f0/6cc06323810c23/US10912502.pdf

The lengthy claim 28 is in fact quite lengthy because there's a lot to it.

28. A user-worn device configured to non-invasively measure an oxygen saturation of a user, the user-worn device comprising:
a first set of light emitting diodes (LEDs), the first set of LEDs comprising at least an LED configured to emit light at a first wavelength and an LED configured to emit light at a second wavelength;
a second set of LEDs spaced apart from the first set of LEDs, the second set of LEDs comprising at least an LED configured to emit light at the first wavelength and an LED configured to emit light at the second wavelength;
four photodiodes arranged in a quadrant configuration on an interior surface of the user-worn device and configured to receive light after at least a portion of the light has been attenuated by tissue of the user;
a thermistor configured to provide a temperature signal;
a protrusion arranged above the interior surface, the protrusion comprising:
a convex surface;
a plurality of openings in the convex surface, extending through the protrusion, and aligned with the four photodiodes, each opening defined by an opaque surface configured to reduce light piping; and
a plurality of transmissive windows, each of the transmissive windows extending across a different one of the openings;
at least one opaque wall extending between the interior surface and the protrusion, wherein at least the interior surface, the opaque wall and the protrusion form cavities, wherein the photodiodes are arranged on the interior surface within the cavities;
one or more processors configured to receive one or more signals from at least one of the photodiodes and calculate an oxygen saturation measurement of the user, the one or more processors further configured to receive the temperature signal;
a network interface configured to wirelessly communicate the oxygen saturation measurement to at least one of a mobile phone or an electronic network;
a user interface comprising a touch-screen display, wherein the user interface is configured to display indicia responsive to the oxygen saturation measurement of the user;
a storage device configured to at least temporarily store at least the measurement; and
a strap configured to position the user-worn device on the user.

If there was prior art for the work that Massimo put into these patents, it should be easy to point out. If all this work was trivial, it raises the question about why Apple decided to hire so many engineers away from the company.

 

[4nNtt]

I don’t get what kind of software fix there could be. The only software items in the two patents were displaying the results on the screen of a watch-like device. Everything else was about the physical shape of the light sensor. A technical fix might be a tweak to the hardware. Making the sensor in to a rounded rectangle instead of a circle and using fewer discrete LEDs per emitter would be different then described in the patent.

 

[subjonas]

Makes sense. Man, I feel sorry for those engineers that got requested to work on this emergency patch update. Their holiday plans have been shot!

I’d think they’ll get big bonuses to make up for it. Hopefully. If they’re successful.

 

[bzgnyc2]

They do seem to take readings of it as part of typical vitals these days. But the devices they use for it are generally $20 clip on pulse oximeters. I did have one (that broke) that did continuous readings and would sync back to my phone via Bluetooth (intended for tracking sleep disruptions due to sleep apnea) that was substantially more expensive ($150). But yeah, maybe short of asthma, sleep apnea, hypoxia, or carbon monoxide poisoning, I’m hard pressed to think of why it’s considered as essential as blood pressure, temperature, and weight. I’m guessing it’s because it’s simple to capture and doesn’t hurt (and most pulse oximeters will also give you a pulse/heart rate readout, which might be the info the nurse really wants).

A physician's office or other medical provider should really not be using a $20 aka OTC pulse oximeter. Those are not cleared (i.e. tested) for medical purposes and have widely varying accuracy

Pulse Oximeter Accuracy and Limitations

The FDA is informing patients and health care providers that pulse oximeters have limitations and a risk of inaccuracy that must be considered.

www.fda.gov

• Over-the-counter (OTC) oximeters are sold directly to consumers in stores or online and include smart phone apps developed for the purpose of estimating oxygen saturation. Use of OTC oximeters has increased as a result of the COVID-19 pandemic. OTC oximeters that are sold as either general wellness or sporting/aviation products are not intended for medical purposes, so they do not undergo FDA review. OTC oximeters intended for medical purposes undergo review by the FDA and require premarket authorization.

Then some are okay and some or not:

The Accuracy of 6 Inexpensive Pulse Oximeters Not Cleared by the Food and Drug Administration: The Possible Global Public Health Implications - PubMed

Many low-cost pulse oximeters sold to consumers demonstrate highly inaccurate readings. Unexpectedly, the accuracy of some low-cost pulse oximeters tested here performed similarly to more expensive, ISO-cleared units when measuring hypoxia in healthy subjects. None of those tested here met World...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

You have to research the exact brand and model (accuracy varies within brands...)

Another issue is that low-quality models don't adapt well to different patients' pigmentation nor movement.

A medical grade model costs like $600 (or builtin to an otherwise more powerful multifunction device) which should be within reach for just about any medical office...

 

[Kierkegaarden]

Here’s my take:

-Apple added this feature well into their category dominance for this product. I can’t see them taking such a risk of knowingly infringing on an existing patent.
-Apple will not reduce core functionality for existing users to work around this.
-The blood oxygen sensing function is pretty low on my list of reasons for using the device.
-Apple has probably been working on a backup plan for a while now. The 21st date was probably chosen so it gives them enough time to implement their software update in production.

 

[CarAnalogy]

Masimo’s patents all seem pretty trivial. Stuff like putting a cover over a sensor to block light. An oxygen sensor literally just looks at how red your blood is with a light sensor. Less red, less oxygen. That part can’t even be patented because the technology is 50 years old. I wonder if Apple is switching to analyzing sensor data with Neural Engine instead of more straightforward approaches.

Read the background on this. They had multiple meetings with Apple. Apple convinced them to show them a lot of tech. They acted interested in licensing it. Then they cut all communication and did it themselves.

Apple has done this many times before. Usually they get away with it. I’m generally no fan of patents but it seems shady.

 

[subjonas]

Can’t wait to see the Hollywood movie they make about this race against the clock. It’ll be like the plot to Apollo 13, except much lower stakes.