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Mac users "up in arms" over $0.99?? WTF?? Really?? :rolleyes: If you own any Apple product, you can certainly afford $0.99 for an app regardless of whether it used to be free or not. You'll pay more than that for Lion this summer when it ships and that will most likely ship with Facetime HD.
 
"Apple has in the past generally stated that adding significant functionality that had not been advertised as included at the time of purchase can require such minimal user payments."

I am waiting on the 99c charge for the App Store. When will accounting contact me for that payment?!!

EXACTLY!

Why doesn't this (completely BS) accountancy rule apply to the Mac App Store? Oh, that's right, because you need the Mac App Store to purchase all new Mac OS Features from now on...:rolleyes:

Pure and utter nonsense from Apple.

And to all those idiots saying "Why can't you pay? It's just .99 etc etc" - It's the sheer principle that is the topic of debate and the precedent that it sets for the future.
 
The same accounting requirements that forced them to charge for iPod touch updates, and that suddenly vanished when the iPad came about?
 
Can we stop calling the people who have a problem with Apple charging $0.99 names? Seriously, I understand if you don't agree but they (including me) have a point. Yes, it was free and yes Apple has the right to charge what ever they want. The real issue is as a consumer, do I want to pay for something which is included free with a new computer with the SAME operating system I have now or should I wait until snow leopard is released and just get it free then? Considering Face Time right now isn't widely used because you can only use it when connected via WiFi with an iPhone and iPads don't have cameras yet, is it wise to wait?

Plus, don't we still have the right to ask questions about why companies do what they do? I mean there is a history here of Apple citing the same accounting measures then down the road skipping them by "finding a way."
 
Can someone please answer something for me?

Is Apple the only company on the planet affected by this 'Sarbanes-Oxley' act? Why is it then that I've never, ever heard of any other situation where this has applied on any other company? I'm asking a sincere, serious question, because I'm dumbfounded. I've installed completely new, free software from Microsoft on my windows machine which was not included or in existence when I bought my machine so... where the hell does this act apply? Why does it not apply for the remote app, and other free apps that apple has in the appstore? How the hell is facetime different? It's not.

This sounds so much like a crock of ****. I consider myself to be rational, objective, and intelligent, yet I don't see any consistency or historical reason to believe that Apple is being 'forced' to put a price on this app, and I don't like being lied to. If it's 0.99, fine, but let's not blame some ******** legislation which apparently is not applied on any other product I've ever bought or on software of any other company on the planet.

I don't fully understand this either, but it may have to do with the fact that Apple sells the whole widget, including the software... The remote app is not a good comparison because the remote app is not included preinstalled on any iPod Touch, iPhone, or iPad. Facetime now will be preinstalled on all new MacBook Pros. My guess is that if they didn't include it preinstalled on the MacBook Pros, that it could legally be distributed free for everyone. But that's just a guess from a non-lawyer....
 
I have no problem with Apple charging for their apps. They pay the developers to create it, that money has to come from somewhere, it's a business after all. They're going to bundle it free with new macs and OSX Lion? Great.

I don't think people are really complaining that it's $0.99. Because let's face it, if you can afford a Mac, you can afford $0.99. It's the principle.

If they came out and said we are charging $0.99 for all FacetimeHD downloads, but are bundled free with all new Macs. That's fine! But this whole "accounting" excuse nonsense is stupid. Just come out and say you want to claw back some development cash for it. I think that's what most of the fuss is about.

I will not be buying it for that reason. I'll wait for Lion ;)
 
Good thing I still have the free beta version from a few months ago. So what exactly does this version have that the beta version doesn't?
 
From a CPA

I'm a CPA who works specifically with software revenue recognition. It is one of the hokiest areas of accounting, and Apple's given reason doesn't surprise me one bit.

The Financial Accounting Standards Board (FASB) issued EITF 08-1 (some people call this The Apple Rule) a little while back, and that injected some reason into the whole thing. But it didn't cover every scenario.

If Ernst & Young, Apple's auditors, decides that FaceTime adds "significant functionality" to existing software, they can basically force Apple to go back and restate all the earnings related to the devices which will be upgraded with the software. This is because Apple didn't foresee offering FaceTime when they originally sold the software to consumers.

If Apple charges SOMETHING for it, then this issue becomes moot.

Why E&Y views FaceTime as significant, but not other updates, is unknown to me. But that is clearly what is going on here.

This gets a little more complicated since many of the devices were sold when Apple had a different auditor, KPMG, with sometimes very different opinions on this subject.

I don't think Apple would have satisfied E&Y by charging $0.01 for the update, since they don't typically charge that for other apps. It looks like Apple went with the lowest price they could charge that was typical, which is $0.99.

If you want some great reading on the subject (or if you want to push yourself closer to the edge of sanity), Google SOP 97-2 and enjoy.
 
$1 people...give me a break. Don't upsize your value meal next time when getting fast food.

oh no 99 cents so expensive i 'd rather pay $1500 for a new mac

Mac users "up in arms" over $0.99?? WTF?? Really?? :rolleyes: If you own any Apple product, you can certainly afford $0.99 for an app regardless of whether it used to be free or not. You'll pay more than that for Lion this summer when it ships and that will most likely ship with Facetime HD.

Just curious: how many people complaining about the 99¢ are complaining about it because they think it should be free, and how many people just want to know the reasons why Apple has to charge anything in the first place?

Personally, I don't care about the 99¢. I don't use FaceTime, but if I did, I wouldn't mind paying 99¢. I just want to know why Apple has to charge for it.
 
EXACTLY!

Why doesn't this (completely BS) accountancy rule apply to the Mac App Store? Oh, that's right, because you need the Mac App Store to purchase all new Mac OS Features from now on...:rolleyes:

Pure and utter nonsense from Apple.

And to all those idiots saying "Why can't you pay? It's just .99 etc etc" - It's the sheer principle that is the topic of debate and the precedent that it sets for the future.

It could possibly maybe be because the Mac App Store is paid for by revenues from the Mac App Store.
 
"Apple has in the past generally stated that adding significant functionality that had not been advertised as included at the time of purchase can require such minimal user payments."

I am waiting on the 99c charge for the App Store. When will accounting contact me for that payment?!!

They get paid everytime you buy something.
 
FaceTime is useless unless other people also have it. A monetary charge, however slight, slows adoption.

I only just managed my parents to download the free beta. Now I have to convince them to download the App Store, get an iTunes account, and pay .99? Not happening.

Hope the beta works till Lion is released.
 
I'm a CPA who works specifically with software revenue recognition. It is one of the hokiest areas of accounting, and Apple's given reason doesn't surprise me one bit.

The Financial Accounting Standards Board (FASB) issued EITF 08-1 (some people call this The Apple Rule) a little while back, and that injected some reason into the whole thing. But it didn't cover every scenario.

If Ernst & Young, Apple's auditors, decides that FaceTime adds "significant functionality" to existing software, they can basically force Apple to go back and restate all the earnings related to the devices which will be upgraded with the software. This is because Apple didn't foresee offering FaceTime when they originally sold the software to consumers.

If Apple charges SOMETHING for it, then this issue becomes moot.

Why E&Y views FaceTime as significant, but not other updates, is unknown to me. But that is clearly what is going on here.

This gets a little more complicated since many of the devices were sold when Apple had a different auditor, KPMG, with sometimes very different opinions on this subject.

I don't think Apple would have satisfied E&Y by charging $0.01 for the update, since they don't typically charge that for other apps. It looks like Apple went with the lowest price they could charge that was typical, which is $0.99.

If you want some great reading on the subject (or if you want to push yourself closer to the edge of sanity), Google SOP 97-2 and enjoy.

Thanks for the insight. However, can you explain what you mean by "they can basically force Apple to go back and restate all the earnings related to the devices which will be upgraded with the software"? I have no clue what that means as I've never taken an accounting/business class before.
 
I don't claim to be an accounting expert. I have no reason or sufficient knowledge to dispute Apple's claim that it's an accounting thing. When someone claims it to be (and I quote) "dogpoo", they are disputing it. Given they haven't provided the grounds for their dispute, the least they could do is provide the qualification under which they make that dispute.
 
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No, they aren't the only company. They are just the only company that people care enough about to make something like this newsworthy.

Don't patronize me. You didn't even bother to address my serious Q. List me some other instances of this happening with known software/updates with any other company. Please. Why does this not happen on the windows side? Microsoft has released a ton of free utilities, etc.

Anyone??
 
Get a grip

$0.99 for this quality of app is a steal. Apple deserves to make money off of their excellent products and I gladly support them by buying them.
 
Next thing you know they'll be charging you for Safari, and the apologists will continue to chime in..."well if you can afford a Mac..."
 
Can someone please answer something for me?

Is Apple the only company on the planet affected by this 'Sarbanes-Oxley' act? Why is it then that I've never, ever heard of any other situation where this has applied on any other company? I'm asking a sincere, serious question, because I'm dumbfounded. I've installed completely new, free software from Microsoft on my windows machine which was not included or in existence when I bought my machine so... where the hell does this act apply? Why does it not apply for the remote app, and other free apps that apple has in the appstore? How the hell is facetime different? It's not.

This sounds so much like a crock of ****. I consider myself to be rational, objective, and intelligent, yet I don't see any consistency or historical reason to believe that Apple is being 'forced' to put a price on this app, and I don't like being lied to. If it's 0.99, fine, but let's not blame some ******** legislation which apparently is not applied on any other product I've ever bought or on software of any other company on the planet.

I'll preface this saying I am a CPA, I work in Big 4 Public Accounting on audits of public, multi-million to billion dollar companies.

All PUBLIC companies, aka listed on a stock exchange where any one can buy a share of, are subject to the requirements of the Sarbanes - Oxley act. It was passed following the frauds perpetuated at Enron, Worldcom, etc. And mainly focuses around the Internal Control requirements that companies must abide by, along with the rules that public accountants must follow in their audits of these companies. Sarbanes-Oxley also created the public accountants best friend, the Public Company Accounting Oversight Board, or the PCAOB. They issue auditing standards which public accounting firms must abide by, among other things. They also perform reviews of the work performed and do a bunch of other stuff only accountants would understand. Think of them as the watchdog entity.

Now, the issue Apple is running into here is derived from US GAAP standards (Generally Accepted Accounting Principles). These rules basically establish how things should be accounted for at public companies and create comparable financial statements (so that an investor can say ok this company has $XXX in assets/liabilities/income etc. and can be compared to this company with $YYY in assets/liabilities/income etc. with confidence that the numbers are derived using the same rules). Every public company is required to get the opinion of a public accounting firm that the financial statements are fairly stated and in accordance with US GAAP, in all material respects. This is my job (one which I am in the middle of our busiest time of year doing).

The accounting standard causing the $0.99 charge from Apple for Facetime is focused around Revenue Recognition. I imagine what Steve was referring to was a change in how Apple was accounting for revenue related to ipods/iphones, one that DID NOT carry over to Macbooks. Basically when a company sells you a product, they recognize revenue at the time of sale. However, if that product has a certain life to it (say software licenses of one year), then the company is required to recognize revenue over the life of the product. For ipods I assume they are carving out a piece of the revenue, tossing it up on the balance sheet as deferred revenue and slowing amortizing (recognizing) the revenue over a set period. If I felt like it I could probably get into their yearend 10-K filing and see the method they are using.

The difference for the Macbooks is that if they've already recognized the revenue related to those sales, but this is representing a significant additional feature, they'd have to go back and say, here is the revenue that matches to this feature (I don't know the particulars in this industry as I have never worked on an audit of a Company like Apple - mainly in Utilities). It is because of the "matching" principle of accounting. Revenues and expenses must be matched to the period and sales for which they relate. Now, in order to get around this, Apple charges $0.99 for the new feature, accounts for the revenue in the current period and is not required to restate prior periods (this is a VERY big deal and would not be something they'd want to do).

Hopefully that makes sense. I had to clear this up because all the BS people were trying to spew was factually wrong. Yes Sarbanes was amended in 2010 and it resulted in the ability for companies to change some accounting policies, but if they didn't switch it for macbooks, then they are SOL.
 
Thank dog for chimes and benson304 (thanks guys/gals) - I was hoping a CPA would weigh in with some actual insight as to the reasons for the miniscule charge. Of course, I'm sure that the freetards who scream every time they have to pay for something will just reject the reasoning out of hand but still, it's a start.

Yeah, a company with billions and billions of cash on hand would alienate their customer base to scrape a buck off an app that few people are currently using, that will be offered included with the next OS. Yep, yep, a cash cow, a pure revenue generator. *Insert rolling eyes emo here*

I thought Mac users took some pride in being slightly smarter than the average consumer, choosing to pay a small premium for quality. But alas, it seems there are just as many self-entitled trailer-dwellers amongst the faithful as there are in PC-land...(with no offense intended to trailer trash).

If I send a cheque for 10 bucks somewhere, will the ten loudest complainers then just ****? :D
 
Thanks for the insight. However, can you explain what you mean by "they can basically force Apple to go back and restate all the earnings related to the devices which will be upgraded with the software"? I have no clue what that means as I've never taken an accounting/business class before.

Ultimately they can withhold their audit opinion on the annual statements or refuse to sign off on the quarterly filings. That's pretty rare, but it's the ultimate stick the auditors hold over their clients.

Another source of power is that if the stock market gets even a whiff that a company is in a disagreement with its auditors, it can adversely affect the stock price (the assumption being that the company is trying to pull one over on the investors).
 
I'm a CPA who works specifically with software revenue recognition. It is one of the hokiest areas of accounting, and Apple's given reason doesn't surprise me one bit.

The Financial Accounting Standards Board (FASB) issued EITF 08-1 (some people call this The Apple Rule) a little while back, and that injected some reason into the whole thing. But it didn't cover every scenario.

You beat me to it - as a CPA who used to deal with software revenue recognition I was going to post the same thing.

Why E&Y views FaceTime as significant, but not other updates, is unknown to me. But that is clearly what is going on here.

I would characterize it a bit differently. I would say that, from a practical perspective, E&Y had nothing to do with this. It's not the auditors that make these determinations, its the company under audit. It is the responsibility of the auditor to determine whether the company's judgement complies with GAAP.

Given that FaceTime revenues are probably one of the most insignificant items on the Income Statement, there is no way that this rises to any materiality level that would cause E&Y to look at it.

For those of you who want to scream "SARBANES-OXLEY!!!!" - shut up please. Somehow this got thrown out years ago and people have been parroting this as a reason ever since. Sarbanes does not have anything to do with any specific accounting rule (i.e. how to account for something). Sarbanes concerns itself with internal controls over financial reporting.
 
I'm a CPA who works specifically with software revenue recognition. It is one of the hokiest areas of accounting, and Apple's given reason doesn't surprise me one bit.

The Financial Accounting Standards Board (FASB) issued EITF 08-1 (some people call this The Apple Rule) a little while back, and that injected some reason into the whole thing. But it didn't cover every scenario.

If Ernst & Young, Apple's auditors, decides that FaceTime adds "significant functionality" to existing software, they can basically force Apple to go back and restate all the earnings related to the devices which will be upgraded with the software. This is because Apple didn't foresee offering FaceTime when they originally sold the software to consumers.

If Apple charges SOMETHING for it, then this issue becomes moot.

Why E&Y views FaceTime as significant, but not other updates, is unknown to me. But that is clearly what is going on here.

This gets a little more complicated since many of the devices were sold when Apple had a different auditor, KPMG, with sometimes very different opinions on this subject.

I don't think Apple would have satisfied E&Y by charging $0.01 for the update, since they don't typically charge that for other apps. It looks like Apple went with the lowest price they could charge that was typical, which is $0.99.

If you want some great reading on the subject (or if you want to push yourself closer to the edge of sanity), Google SOP 97-2 and enjoy.


Thanks for the great explanation!
 
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