Apple's A4 Processor is Based on Cortex A8, Not A9?

[Azmordean]

I worry when Apple's patronizing digital playpen is seen as the "future of computing".

Wow, you just managed to convey my whole sentiment in one sentence. Well said.

I think its dangerous because there are a lot of people who will spend money and cede control all in the name of "ease of use" and "ooooohhhh shiney!"

For the time being, I think both ecosystems can coexist. And I can see ipad being used in some professional settings, and I can see why some people may want one. But when people say this is the future, this is all there will be some day, its pretty worrying.

 

[spencers]

Cool, another reason not to buy 1st revision

 

[WLS]

SJ bashed netbooks during the iPad's introduction but it sounds more and more like Apple's netbook:

Netbook: single core low power Atom processor
iPad: single core low power A4 processor

Netbook: multitasks poorly
iPad: doesn't multitask at all

Netbook: handles Flash poorly
iPad: doesn't handle Flash at all

The netbook misery usually comes in around $250-$500 (but can go up to $800 or so with options), while the iPad magic will come in at $500-$830.

At least with the netbook, there are some different processor options from some companies (dual core Atom 330, Nvidia Ion, Broadcom HD chip) and Flash 10.1 Beta to help smooth over the rough edges, if you're willing to pay for them.

Yes now with the revelation that the iPad uses the same chip it has been using in it's Touches and Phones just at a higher speed some of the RDF is wearing off. It is no surprise that the low cost of the iPad is due to using standard chips and more LSI.
Netbooks now use a low power Atom cpu (N400 series) with integrated graphics and give 8 hours use. The x3100 graphics is admittedly limited but a Broadcom decoder is becoming standard and gives HD quality video just fine. Flash also works just fine so you can have it if you need it and a USB port. Oh and Windows 7 works just fine too. At least with a Netbook you can install what you want and watch what you want without having the App store censoring you.
You have to poke at the iPad to do things which is fine if you are holding it but what if you want to set it down? Poking the screen while it is leaning against something is going to just push it away or knock it over. Laying it flat means it has to be in front of you and in the way of other things.. It is a device that really only works if you are holding it and even for that I think it is too large to be convenient. The 5 by 8 size that Alan Kay recommended seems preferable. I would upgrade from my iPod Touch for that size.

 

[lilo777]

not surprised - why would they put a real CPU in a Toy?... like putting an i7 in the Fisher Price Nickbook.

Or the MacBook Pro

 

[darkblu]

A9 can hit higher clock speeds in addition to having better performance at the same clock. A8 is basically a Pentium 1, A9 is a pretty modern design.

p5 did not have fp simd. but otherwise yes - it was dual-issue, in-order. then again, so is atom.

 

[mygoldens]

Apple again boosting revenue

They tell us one thing and then turn around doing something different. There is no way to tell on the iPad, so, let us give the public a crappy processor or a crippled one. This is just like the iPad itself, crippled and only produced to capture the Ebook market.

I love Macs, but Apple has jumped off the deep $$$ end of the real world, which will be their undoing like M$.

I am sad to see this direction.

 

[HLdan]

I find it deplorable that people are voting this article negative. Nobody and I mean NOBODY here knows what the iPad is capable of with the A8 processor. For all we know, Apple most likely has optimized the iPad to where the A8 has more than twice the power it needs to run the most demanding apps. So what if it's an older chip, does it really matter? I'll bet the majority of you here don't even know what's inside your cell phone, could be older technology, the cheapest screen and poorly built on the inside but if you're happy with it, who the hell cares? Hold judgement day for when the iPad gets released and developers complain that it can't run their apps.

 

[Becordial]

Wow, you just managed to convey my whole sentiment in one sentence. Well said.

I think its dangerous because there are a lot of people who will spend money and cede control all in the name of "ease of use" and "ooooohhhh shiney!"

For the time being, I think both ecosystems can coexist. And I can see ipad being used in some professional settings, and I can see why some people may want one. But when people say this is the future, this is all there will be some day, its pretty worrying.

Fair points. As much as the future is looking interesting many of us will still want to keep a hackbox (PC, Mac whatever) in the house because as always there remains something very desirable about having a box with no limitations whatsoever. I think the idea that "devices and services" is the future is still an idea that will lead to lots of take-up amongst less technical computer users. It doesn't necessarily serve as the only way for many of us here as enthusiasts though who enjoy finding the limits of computers and not just using it for a limited set of end-purposes.

As you say, both can co-exist at least initially.

 

[jamesryanbell]

I find it deplorable that people are voting this article negative.

Not the absolute latest and greatest? Even a CHANCE that it's not? Immediate negative.

lol

 

[cmaier]

A9 can hit higher clock speeds in addition to having better performance at the same clock. A8 is basically a Pentium 1, A9 is a pretty modern design.

Based on what?

A8 has a 13 stage pipeline. The A9 has an 8 stage pipeline. All else being equal (same process technology, similar instruction complexity), a 13-stage pipeline can run at a higher clock rate than an 8 stage pipeline, as dividing work into 13 pieces results in fewer gate delays per stage.

If you took a Pentium 1 and ran it on today's process node it would fly pretty fast, too. That's what Larrabee is about.

 

[Azmordean]

Fair points. Got to admit that as much as the future is looking very interesting I'll still want to keep a hackbox (PC, Mac whatever) in the house because as always there remains something very desirable about having a box with no limitations whatsoever. I think the idea that "devices and services" is the future is still an idea that probably best applies to the majority of semi-literate computer users. It doesn't necessarily apply to many of us here as enthusiasts though who enjoy finding the limits of computers and not just using it for a limited set of end-purposes. As you say, both can co-exist.

Right. My concern is not that the hardware will disappear. It is more about the internet itself. I see these devices as leading to an increasingly monetized, proprietary and fragmented internet if they really catch on. To the extent Apple seems to be leading the charge in this direction, I am indeed disappointed in the company. Its almost like Apple and MS have switched places and Apple is going to be the new driver of proprietary nonsense.

And its not just the ipad that leads me to think this, its the things around it - like "exclusive deals with publishers" and "new proprietary apple ebook format."

 

[Lavaboy]

You're getting back to the "more better" thing.......

I'm saying Apple knows things about this device you don't. Maybe you don't want to admit this, but the fact remains.

True fanboism at it's finest. Apple knows better than everyone else so whatever they do is perfect and you cannot question it. I love it!

 

[EagerDragon]

re-considering waiting

I was going to get the 3G version as soon as it was out, now I am considering wayting a bit. The bezel with space for a front side camera, the A8 CPU, the lack of multitasking and the use of OS 3.2 instead of 4.0 makes me wonder if maybe I should wait 6 to 8 months before getting one.

Had my mind made up, now thinking about it, Grrrr.

 

[cmaier]

I was going to get the 3G version as soon as it was out, now I am considering wayting a bit. The bezel with space for a front side camera, the A8 CPU, the lack of multitasking and the use of OS 3.2 instead of 4.0 makes me wonder if maybe I should wait 6 to 8 months before getting one.

Had my mind made up, now thinking about it, Grrrr.

The OS version shouldn't factor into your decision. You will be able to install 4.0 on the first generation iPad.

The CPU shouldn't factor into your decision. It is more than fast enough.

 

[iRACK]

Computers are the mass consumer market. And this is being marketed as a computer...but it's heavily, heavily stripped down in both software and hardware despite the full price tag.

Seems like we have a different definition about consumption...

Well you are right. Computers aim at the mass consumer market, but most of the users out there have machines that are over-equipped!
Because it is consumption that they actually do not creation!!

Just try to think about it from a "I don´t know anything about the insides of a computer - person" point of view. An average user that wants to use the Internet, store Photos and contacts. A User who wants to do E-Mail and do other easy single tasks. A user who wants to play an easy fun game as well as read a book/pdf/insert other text-media here or watch a video.

Thinking from that persons point of view your Computer can do to much. It is hard to use. It needs maintenance.

I do not want to know how many people out there loose their data constantly because they forget to backup and so on and so on. Lets not even start talking about the filesystem and defragmentation....

Today you will still need a computer in order to own an iPad. But soon you will just need that Online Data service for syncing and file-storage. Than all you need is an Internet connection. Content will be acquired via the Web.

When this transition is over you will have a consumer market for iPad like devices (ruled by ipad) and than there will be an creator market, too.

Consumer vs. creator mass market vision. (you heard it here first ;-)

 

[nagromme]

The details are interesting, but the results are more important to me: is it fast in actual use? Is low-cost and power-efficient?

Current Intel chips abandoned the Pentium 4 design and went back to build on the Pentium 3. That’s not a bad thing: the results speak for themselves. That’s not to say anything bad about the A9, just pointing out that a good product can sometimes be made branching from an older starting point.

Or it may be that the iPad is sluggish and works poorly

 

[Eidorian]

Wow, you just managed to convey my whole sentiment in one sentence. Well said.

I think its dangerous because there are a lot of people who will spend money and cede control all in the name of "ease of use" and "ooooohhhh shiney!"

For the time being, I think both ecosystems can coexist. And I can see ipad being used in some professional settings, and I can see why some people may want one. But when people say this is the future, this is all there will be some day, its pretty worrying.

localoid make some posts that agree with my worries in this thread.

There are also some references to a few "even my toddler can use the iPhone" statements and even 1984.

Right. My concern is not that the hardware will disappear. It is more about the internet itself. I see these devices as leading to an increasingly monetized, proprietary and fragmented internet if they really catch on. To the extent Apple seems to be leading the charge in this direction, I am indeed disappointed in the company. Its almost like Apple and MS have switched places and Apple is going to be the new driver of proprietary nonsense.

And its not just the ipad that leads me to think this, its the things around it - like "exclusive deals with publishers" and "new proprietary apple ebook format."

Believe me I was only joking.

 

[iRACK]

The OS version shouldn't factor into your decision. You will be able to install 4.0 on the first generation iPad.

The CPU shouldn't factor into your decision. It is more than fast enough.

This sounds like a Steve Jobsian e-mail answer to me...

Just change name, no big deal ;-)

 

[cmaier]

This sounds like a Steve Jobsian e-mail answer to me...

Just change name, no big deal ;-)

I get your point, but explain to me how the presence or absence of out-of-order retirement and register renaming actually affects you if you buy a first generation iPad.

My point is - it likely doesn't. If everything feels snappy enough on your iPad, what difference does it make that it is based on an older microarchitecture?

As I pointed out above, people are worried about the wrong things. To determine processor performance you need to know:

1) microarchitecture (IPC)
2) process node (clock rate/power consumption)
3) physical design (clock rate/power consumption).

Despite wrong information above, on a given process technology the A8 will likely operate at a higher clock speed than the A9 since the A8 has 50% more pipe stages. Additionally, in-order machines don't have to pay for big power-sucking branch predictors, etc. in order to keep their IPC up.

I have to say, people who are screaming that A8 is somehow inherently worse for the consumer than an A9 sound pretty ignorant to those of us who have actually designed processors.

 

[iRACK]

I get your point, but explain to me how the presence or absence of out-of-order retirement and register renaming actually affects you if you buy a first generation iPad.

My point is - it likely doesn't. If everything feels snappy enough on your iPad, what difference does it make that it is based on an older microarchitecture?

As I pointed out above, people are worried about the wrong things. To determine processor performance you need to know:

1) microarchitecture (IPC)
2) process node (clock rate/power consumption)
3) physical design (clock rate/power consumption).

Despite wrong information above, on a given process technology the A8 will likely operate at a higher clock speed than the A9 since the A8 has 50% more pipe stages. Additionally, in-order machines don't have to pay for big power-sucking branch predictors, etc. in order to keep their IPC up.

I have to say, people who are screaming that A8 is somehow inherently worse for the consumer than an A9 sound pretty ignorant to those of us who have actually designed processors.

You probably did not want to quote me since i am saying the same thing all the way trough this thread. It is about performance not about specs.

 

[cmaier]

You probably did not want to quote me since i am saying the same thing all the way trough this thread. It is about performance not about specs.

Only quoted ya for the jobsian reference

 

[Wolfpup]

Yes now with the revelation that the iPad uses the same chip it has been using in it's Touches and Phones just at a higher speed some of the RDF is wearing off. It is no surprise that the low cost of the iPad is due to using standard chips and more LSI.

I don't think it's low cost at all. The only component in it that costs more than a Netbook that's $200 cheaper is it uses an ISP panel instead of TN. That's really cool, but other than that it's all cheap, low end hardware.

p5 did not have fp simd. but otherwise yes - it was dual-issue, in-order. then again, so is atom.

Yeah, Atom's basically just a "modern" Pentium 1.

Based on what?

A8 has a 13 stage pipeline. The A9 has an 8 stage pipeline. All else being equal (same process technology, similar instruction complexity), a 13-stage pipeline can run at a higher clock rate than an 8 stage pipeline, as dividing work into 13 pieces results in fewer gate delays per stage.

I'm confused...we seem to be agreeing?

Seems like we have a different definition about consumption...

Well you are right. Computers aim at the mass consumer market, but most of the users out there have machines that are over-equipped!
Because it is consumption that they actually do not creation!!

Just try to think about it from a "I don´t know anything about the insides of a computer - person" point of view. An average user that wants to use the Internet, store Photos and contacts. A User who wants to do E-Mail and do other easy single tasks. A user who wants to play an easy fun game as well as read a book/pdf/insert other text-media here or watch a video.

Thinking from that persons point of view your Computer can do to much. It is hard to use. It needs maintenance.

I do not want to know how many people out there loose their data constantly because they forget to backup and so on and so on. Lets not even start talking about the filesystem and defragmentation....

The iPad doesn't solve any of those problems. For one thing, it's not a stand alone computer. For another, it's less reliable/robust than a real OS is.

Content will be acquired via the Web.

So you've got an AppleTV? An overpriced device that only does a few things, and they're all tied to Apple's DRM and store?

When this transition is over you will have a consumer market for iPad like devices (ruled by ipad) and than there will be an creator market, too.

You're getting a weeeeee bit ahead of yourself there. Not impossible, but not very likely this is replacing real computers.

Current Intel chips abandoned the Pentium 4 design and went back to build on the Pentium 3. That’s not a bad thing: the results speak for themselves. That’s not to say anything bad about the A9, just pointing out that a good product can sometimes be made branching from an older starting point.

Or it may be that the iPad is sluggish and works poorly

Yeah, but this *IS* an A8 again, and in the case of Core 2, they kind of built off the 686 again, but it's continued to evolve in drastic ways.

 

[Wolfpup]

Despite wrong information above, on a given process technology the A8 will likely operate at a higher clock speed than the A9 since the A8 has 50% more pipe stages.

No it doesn't. A9's is longer.

Additionally, in-order machines don't have to pay for big power-sucking branch predictors, etc. in order to keep their IPC up.

So power sucking that even ARM's newest design uses it? And the alternative is using more cores, and/or higher clock frequencies, which also uses more power.

I have to say, people who are screaming that A8 is somehow inherently worse for the consumer than an A9 sound pretty ignorant to those of us who have actually designed processors.

It's a worse CPU, period. Is it fast enough for the iPad? Well, no, probably not if the iPad were actually designed right in terms of software, but maybe for the limited things it's doing.

 

[iRACK]

The iPad doesn't solve any of those problems. For one thing, it's not a stand alone computer. For another, it's less reliable/robust than a real OS is.

If you would have quoted my whole post you would have found out that i was talking about a transition.

I stated that: "Today you will still need a computer in order to own an iPad. But soon you will just need that Online Data service for syncing and file-storage. Than all you need is an Internet connection. Content will be acquired via the Web. "

And than i had the idea that: "When this transition is over you will have a consumer market for iPad like devices (ruled by ipad) and than there will be an creator market, too."

So if you only quote the first half of my statement above i find it kind of misleading.

And please explain why the iPhone/touch/ipad OS is less reliable... any solid proof?

 

[cmaier]

No it doesn't. A9's is longer.

No. Once again: A8 has a 13 stages. A9 has 8. A8 has more pipe stages than A9.