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Thunderhawks

Suspended
Feb 17, 2009
4,057
2,118
I've worked with a lot of H1Bs before, and a pretty significant portion of them were anything, but highly-skilled. In fact, they were mostly hired for lower level roles that anyone who took a programming class could perform. Don't fall for the "there are no qualified Americans" myth, it's complete nonsense.

Right there is your problem. Not enough Americans will take programming classes.
American education is a big problem.
Very few students get "forced" by their parents to put their noses to the grindstone.

As soon as the kids complain, it's the schools fault.
Homework too much, tests too difficult (Let's lower the bar, so everybody passes)

In some cultures the entire family does homework together and the parents make sure the kids understand the subject they are supposed to learn.
What I see in USA is that the kids after school are mostly left alone, because both parents HAVE to work to get to the life style they want. (And , it is usually higher than they should want)

It's just easier to cry and make it always somebody else fault. Human nature.

Obviously we can't say all foreigners are dumb or smart and the same goes for USA.

But, to always claim America first may leave many industries with not the best talent.

There are inventions being made outside the US and the pool of brilliant people is worldwide.

BUT : Totally dumb to not use what is available in the best talent worldwide.
 

EightyTwenty

macrumors 6502a
Mar 11, 2015
809
1,667
I've worked with a lot of H1Bs before, and a pretty significant portion of them were anything, but highly-skilled. In fact, they were mostly hired for lower level roles that anyone who took a programming class could perform. Don't fall for the "there are no qualified Americans" myth, it's complete nonsense.

Exactly.

"Americans don't like STEM" is just about the dumbest excuse I have ever heard. Maybe the reason they "don't like STEM" is because there are no jobs for them after graduation due to H1B abuses by large corporations or because wages have been so depressed due to those abuses.
 

NachoGrande

macrumors 6502a
Mar 30, 2010
986
1,714
As a software engineer, I've watched countless colleagues get replaced by cheaper foreign labor. Not only do they get replaced, but we have to change our hours around to deal with them.

I've been lucky enough to not get replaced in my 25 years of working.
 
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alex2792

macrumors 65816
Jun 13, 2009
1,125
2,973
I agree. I work with many H1Bs and they are not a highly skilled employee. Their best skill is their willingness to work unlimited hours. They are not skilled and often know very little that cannot be found with a simple search.

Fun story, one of my previous employers (HUGE organization) outsourced the entire application support team save for 1 or 2 people to Indian H1Bs. It was literally impossible to get anything done, because the people they hired barely spoke English and couldn't write coherent sentences, which prevented them from communicating with users who had their issues escalated. We ended up having to use the 1 or 2 Americans who were left as intermediaries, it was a complete ******** to say the least.
 

KPOM

macrumors P6
Oct 23, 2010
18,004
7,851
Exactly.

"Americans don't like STEM" is just about the dumbest excuse I have ever heard. Maybe the reason they "don't like STEM" is because there are no jobs for them after graduation due to H1B abuses by large corporations or because wages have been so depressed due to those abuses.
The other reason is that, until recently, our primary and secondary schools haven't done such a great job preparing students to major in STEM.
 

coolfactor

macrumors 604
Jul 29, 2002
6,943
9,470
Vancouver, BC
Canada has a policy - you cannot hire a foreign worker if you can find existing employees in Canada. Up until Harper, not sure if its been reversed but foreign workers must be paid the same as a resident. Foreign workers cannot be used to decrease the salary.

While you're correct in that the LMIA (Labour Market Impact Assessment), which runs employers $1000 per head to get processed, does raise the requirements for hiring foreign workers, far too many employers are abusing this program, passing this cost on to the workers because they know that they are in a vulnerable position and desperate for work. My gf is Filipina and recently experienced this.

I'm very pro-Canadian, but I also see both sides of it, and Canada has a huge potential for supporting both local and foreign workers. The real problem starts with the people... those willing to do the work, and foreign workers are far more willing to the job right, bringing a much higher work ethic.
 
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t76turbo

macrumors 6502
Sep 20, 2012
298
702
Why can’t these employees just do the same job in their own country? If Apple hired 1,000 Indians then just get a building for 1,000 Indians in India. Pay them a comparable Indian salary and just as importantly relieve some of the Silicon Valley housing crisis. These tech companies are all about globalization except oddly for their own employees, and you can’t tell me it’s essential for all these foreign hires to be in the same location. They just want to share the relative greatness of the US soil while paying no attention to what the economic impact is on the natives.


I like your thinking.

But the one issue with that I will point out is the time and language difference. I have worked on projects where we outsourced part of the project to a foreign firm. Most if not all in India. And when collaboration needs to occur on the phone it is very difficult not only because of the time difference but also the language barrier.
 
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MentalFloss

macrumors 65816
Mar 14, 2012
1,019
841
Why can’t these employees just do the same job in their own country? If Apple hired 1,000 Indians then just get a building for 1,000 Indians in India. Pay them a comparable Indian salary and just as importantly relieve some of the Silicon Valley housing crisis. These tech companies are all about globalization except oddly for their own employees, and you can’t tell me it’s essential for all these foreign hires to be in the same location.
Actually, it is quite essential. Otherwise Apple would certainly be happy to have engineering teams in India, where they pay 10% of Silicon Valley salaries. It's not some Manifest Destiny kind of irrational nationalism on Apple's behalf that makes them bring everyone to Cupertino. Teams simply work together far better locally and face-to-face. Apple's company culture is already competitive enough as it is. Adding competition between sites would really make things terribly difficult for them.

But as I wrote in another post, it is going to happen if H-1 visa get restricted. It's obviously nice for the "target countries" if they get a large number of high-salary workers who pay high taxes, consume a lot of local goods, etc.

So it is a bit counter-intuitive to me that Trump's strategy will result in the elimination of high-salary jobs in the US, while he seems intent on bringing back low-salary manufacturing jobs. But hey, if that's what Americans want, it's their prerogative to shape their own country. As a European, I am surprisingly happy right now.
 
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aaronvan

Suspended
Dec 21, 2011
1,350
9,353
República Cascadia
I've worked with a lot of H1Bs before, and a pretty significant portion of them were anything, but highly-skilled. In fact, they were mostly hired for lower level roles that anyone who took a programming class could perform. Don't fall for the "there are no qualified Americans" myth, it's complete nonsense.

Exactly. Trump should revoke every H1B visa and force the affected companies to hire Americans.
 

freediverx

macrumors 65816
Feb 19, 2006
1,009
1,022
Hallelujah! It's about time, the H1B program is abused mercilessly by pretty much every tech company to replace American workers with cheap foreign labor. I bet those Disney employees who had to train their Indian replacements before being let go are dancing in the streets.

I can't stand Trump but the abuse of H1B visas to drive down salaries for US skilled labor is real.
 

alphaod

macrumors Core
Feb 9, 2008
22,183
1,245
NYC
About time some reform is done on the H1-B situation. My friend went to school here, worked hard for a startup for several years, but in the end couldn't get a H1-B because he couldn't win the "lottery" and these big tech companies are hiring no-skill "skilled" labor who get fast-tracked for an I-551 just to cut costs and it's ridiculous.
 

MentalFloss

macrumors 65816
Mar 14, 2012
1,019
841
"Americans don't like STEM" is just about the dumbest excuse I have ever heard. Maybe the reason they "don't like STEM" is because there are no jobs for them after graduation due to H1B abuses by large corporations or because wages have been so depressed due to those abuses.
So you mean someone with an interest in and talent for STEM picks up a liberal arts major because they expect that the salaries in STEM will not be to their liking due to "H1-B abuse"?

Likely story.
 

usarioclave

macrumors 65816
Sep 26, 2003
1,447
1,506
The H1B program has been abused by body shops. It's a well-known fact in the software and IT industries, and putting a minimum salary for H1Bs is a step in the right direction.

The L1 visa program hasn't been abused as much due to the employment length and corporate lifespan requirements. However, it's a great way for you, an individual, to get a work visa for you and your family assuming you can figure out how to self-incorporate in your home country and the US. There's an amusing document put out by ICE on L1 visa abuse and limits on checking compliance on the L1 requirements. It's basically a how-to guide for L1 visa fraud.
 

Plutonius

macrumors G3
Feb 22, 2003
9,005
8,346
New Hampshire, USA
Directly affecting tech companies is H-1B, which lets companies like Apple hire appropriately skilled workers for specific jobs when there is a dearth of local talent available.

That's what it is supposed to be. In truth, companies use H-1B to get low cost technological labor. What's really ironic is the companies having their local tech labor training their H1-B replacements before the local labor is let go.
 
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Thunderhawks

Suspended
Feb 17, 2009
4,057
2,118
Good. Give some Americans an opportunity at Apple. Also, the President's concern is the US and the safety of its citizens over labor difficulties at Apple.

Why? There are plenty of Americans at Apple.

Shouldn't the main issue for hiring somebody be qualification, especially if there is no equivalent American?

The cloak of "safety" has been draped over everything to justify dumb procedures.
Unfortunately "safety" is not achievable and all bogus, as we know criminals do not follow laws and thus will always be many steps ahead of government.
Terrorists have nothing that has to happen within a specific time frame. They can plan for a long time before they hit.

They may already be here and you can add the easily brainwashed and easily converted haters.

Clearly the danger to all of it is religion. Bad deeds in the name of religion have a long history and go back into ancient times. Just watch The Mission or follow the history of crusades.

Sadly humans have not evolved past emotional treatment of religion.
 

LIVEFRMNYC

macrumors G3
Oct 27, 2009
8,775
10,837
Machines will take their place. What machines can't do will be contracted on forgien soil. Basically, Americans shouldn't get to happy until they see the end results.
 
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pjarvi

macrumors 65816
Jan 11, 2006
1,289
190
Clovis, CA
The best part of the overhaul I have heard is the intention to restrict the majority of work visas to only be given to students and recent college graduates that are attending or have graduated from a US college. Makes perfect sense to me. As an IT worker I have been "displaced" before and can only find temporary/contract jobs currently. I make more money but have zero benefits, I would rather earn less but have benefits like paid medical care and sick leave. Glad I voted for Trump.
 
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