Apple's Ability to Hire Foreign Workers May Be Impacted by Trump Overhaul of Work-Visa Programs

[CTHarrryH]

Although I don't agree with trump's policy - this is an item that needs fixing but this isn't the way to do it. I worked for companies that has management objectives that required a certain percent of workers had to be foreign contractors. I know US citizens who were laid off in order to hire foreign contractors and other instances were layoffs occurred and again US citizens were laid off but people on visas kept on. Both those should be illegal.

Unfortunately, I think, the way that trump has done this won't lead to actual reform but it will be an all or nothing. There are I'm sure instances where visa people are needed but not to the extent used.

In the non-tech world I have been in restaurants where the entire serving staff was from abroad (not from these countries) and in talking to an owner was told they don't even try to hire locally - they call a company that brings people over to the country specifically to fill these jobs. - Again should be illegal.

 

[konqueror4u]

As H1B is targeted to bring highly skilled professionals I am not sure how giving preference to recent college graduates will help to achieve that goal. I think it should be provided to people with atleast 8-10 years of experience. Programming needs skill, dedication and passion I think it is easy to be a manager than a programmer. Yes programmers do end up in lower roles but that does not mean that their jobs are not highly skilled and just training does not make you a good programmer. Programming jobs are highly skilled training will not create a good programmer. Most of the programmers are self taught and they will need to be trained on the functional aspect which is specific to the project.

If the companies are not allowed to hire the people they need here they will just open their offices else where. Apple is starting design center in Indonesia, development center in India and they will expand them or add new locations. Driving away experienced foreign talent is not good for the industry.


There are more than 220k tech jobs available. I am not sure why people are not ready for them. I don't think those number are fake.

http://www.inc.com/salvador-rodriguez/act-software-developers-map.html

 

[NoNothing]

Depends, if you use high-skilled workers (example being people educated at US colleges), then this is a hinderance. Only 85k workers per year? Quite low, more so in the STEM degrees which almost no US Citizen likes to study or drops out off.

I work with lots of H1B visa outsource (I've been outsourced labor for 25 years. U.S. citizen with niche skills in software mitigation of radiation level impacts to software). I have watched my largest client transition from about 90/10 ratio on full time to out sourced ratio to a current 20/80 ratio.

15 years ago, outsource was used to fill specific short falls. Now they use it to fill general staffing needs. They have laid (or forced retire) off really good talent to replace them with cheap H1B temp employees. I find there are some really good H1B people and lots of chaff. Just like US employees. Some good. Lots of chaff.

Abuse is rampant.

 

[brianvictor7]

As the spouse of an immigrant, I'm well acquainted with the long and frustrating process it took to bring her legally into the US. A lot of very hardworking, otherwise law-abiding people want to work in the US, but we make it very difficult for them to come here. It is frustrating to see that they aren't allowed to compete in the free market so they can help their families back in their home countries. So long as they pay their taxes, I think we and the world are stronger for having them be a part of our society, to contribute here and share what they make abroad. I'd very much like to see the new administration think long and hard about the negative impacts its policies are having on living, breathing people. There is a balance, of course, to be struck with ensure jobs are available for residents of the US, but this isn't it.

 

[Bryan Bowler]

This is great news! Maybe I'll be able to actually understand what the person is saying when I call AppleCare.

 

[blacktape242]

Why can't we give American Citizens jobs?

 

[AsherN]

This is great news! Maybe I'll be able to actually understand what the person is saying when I call AppleCare.

No, you won't. First, that AppleCare tech is likely in India to begin with. And if companies can't bring the foreign workers in the US, they will just move the team to another country.

 

[Morris]

The best way to circumvent all this is obviously to create more jobs abroad. Instead of hiring people to work in California, hire them for your Vancouver, Dublin, Bangalore etc. offices.

 

[Cineplex]

Good! These visas are keeping skilled people over here out of work. Companies like Chase Bank hire tons of Indians and pay them $90-100k to write code. I know several coders out of work that are stuck in retail that could code circles around them. All this "skilled" labor crap is just BS. Companies just don't want to give benefits, vacation time, or worry about unemployment. Don't want someone...contract ended. I was happy to see Chase Bank close its New Hampshire office that was 90% Indians on visas. Get rid of these visas and I bet you'll see a rise in employment in the US.

 

[NoNothing]

Right there is your problem. Not enough Americans will take programming classes.
American education is a big problem.
Very few students get "forced" by their parents to put their noses to the grindstone.

As soon as the kids complain, it's the schools fault.
Homework too much, tests too difficult (Let's lower the bar, so everybody passes)

In some cultures the entire family does homework together and the parents make sure the kids understand the subject they are supposed to learn.
What I see in USA is that the kids after school are mostly left alone, because both parents HAVE to work to get to the life style they want. (And , it is usually higher than they should want)

It's just easier to cry and make it always somebody else fault. Human nature.

Obviously we can't say all foreigners are dumb or smart and the same goes for USA.

But, to always claim America first may leave many industries with not the best talent.

There are inventions being made outside the US and the pool of brilliant people is worldwide.

BUT : Totally dumb to not use what is available in the best talent worldwide.

In the last 5-10 years I have watched my clients software department go from over 300 employees to less than 25 through layoffs and forced retirements. Meanwhile all of those people have been replaced by H1B visa temp contracts.

Don't fall for the lie of no local talent. There is rampant abuse of the H1B visa program dictated by corporate policy.

 

[konqueror4u]

No, you won't. First, that AppleCare tech is likely in India to begin with. And if companies can't bring the foreign workers in the US, they will just move the team to another country.

Exactly Highly skilled jobs will disappear just like manufacturing jobs.

 

[mkeeley]

Why can't we give American Citizens jobs?

You need to ask the liberals why it would be such a bad thing. Same as over here they seem to hate their own country,.

 

[konqueror4u]

You need to ask the liberals why it would be such a bad thing. Same as over here they seem to hate their own country,.

There are more than 220k tech jobs available. I am not sure why people are not ready for them. I don't think those number are fake

http://www.inc.com/salvador-rodriguez/act-software-developers-map.html

 

[Gasu E.]

Why can’t these employees just do the same job in their own country? If Apple hired 1,000 Indians then just get a building for 1,000 Indians in India. Pay them a comparable Indian salary and just as importantly relieve some of the Silicon Valley housing crisis. These tech companies are all about globalization except oddly for their own employees, and you can’t tell me it’s essential for all these foreign hires to be in the same location. They just want to share the relative greatness of the US soil while paying no attention to what the economic impact is on the natives.

Large tech companies already do this, in spades. It's called "off shoring". The more established tech firms are moving more and more of their high-skilled work to Bangalore, etc. All large tech companies have an R&D center in India and other countries with low wages and some high-skill set.

 

[jav6454]

I've worked with a lot of H1Bs before, and a pretty significant portion of them were anything, but highly-skilled. In fact, they were mostly hired for lower level roles that anyone who took a programming class could perform. Don't fall for the "there are no qualified Americans" myth, it's complete nonsense.

Let's match your anecdotal evidence with mine. I am an H1-B visa holder; furthermore, I am also an electrical engineer that works as Digital Lead for my company. Why? Because they couldn't find an American with my qualifications or education background necesary to fill in the post. Let me rewind back a bit to my commencement ceremony. Out of 1034 students at my university, only 34 were engineer graduates. 6 were electrical and not one was American, we were all foreign born from Latin America (me), India, and China. The other engineers for other majors? Only 2 were American, and they obtained Civil. The rest in the ceremony? Well, they were all Business, English, Geography, Fine Art, Photography, Education majors and yes those were filled with Americans. Funny story.

Oh oh! Forgot to mention, I graduated in 2011, but trust me, things haven't changed much.

Exactly.

"Americans don't like STEM" is just about the dumbest excuse I have ever heard. Maybe the reason they "don't like STEM" is because there are no jobs for them after graduation due to H1B abuses by large corporations or because wages have been so depressed due to those abuses.

See above. Or rather, just go to a campus, you won't see Americans doing STEM. Or if you do, they are all freshmen/early sophmores who eventually drop out into business or some other Liberal Arts degree. See above.

Exactly. Trump should revoke every H1B visa and force the affected companies to hire Americans.

You apparently have no idea how bad this move would be or how dire the consequences can be.

 

[Gasu E.]

You need to ask the liberals why it would be such a bad thing. Same as over here they seem to hate their own country,.

Knee jerk right-wing reaction. It's not the "liberals" who think hiring American citizens is bad. It's the Corporations who are looking for cheap labor. All those Corporations that your precious Republican Party constantly defends.

 

[Thunderhawks]

In the last 5-10 years I have watched my clients software department go from over 300 employees to less than 25 through layoffs and forced retirements. Meanwhile all of those people have been replaced by H1B visa temp contracts.

Don't fall for the lie of no local talent. There is rampant abuse of the H1B visa program dictated by corporate policy.

Not saying there is NO local talent. There is not enough local talent. (Engineers etc.)

Plus, obviously corporations judge with dollars who is talent.

While one should take things person by person, there are plenty of examples how foreign talent can turn out better than American:

Take Microsoft .
The new guy is Indian (Pretty sure Bill Gates had something to do with that!) and seems to have put a spark into MS.
Steve Ballmer almost killed MS! (Despite Harvard etc. education)

 

[randolorian]

.

 

[jdillings]

There are more than 220k tech jobs available. I am not sure why people are not ready for them. I don't think those number are fake

http://www.inc.com/salvador-rodriguez/act-software-developers-map.html

The source for that article is the App Association who is very much pro-H1B abuse. One of many lies from their website:

They also conveniently overlook the fact that a) there are legal provisions to ensure that H-1B workers don’t get hired because they work for less money than Americans

http://actonline.org/2009/02/24/tro...eans-trouble-for-highly-skilled-h-1b-workers/

 

[sziehr]

Hallelujah! It's about time, the H1B program is abused mercilessly by pretty much every tech company to replace American workers with cheap foreign labor. I bet those Disney employees who had to train their Indian replacements before being let go are dancing in the streets.

Fellow IT worker here. I have to say yep. Disney and Intel are my go to when people go well your just anti immigration. I go nope straight nope. They abused the policy. The policy in the 90's was sound and had stiff penalties. The policy now is luke warm and abused to the detriment of American workers.

 

[konqueror4u]

The source for that article is the App Association who is very much pro-H1B abuse. One of many lies from their website:

So It is better to ship those jobs overseas if they are real?

 

[jasonklee]

Great news as the H-1B program raises native worker wages and has no significant effects on native employment according to three economists in their 2014 NBEResearch working paper. Sure, H-1B workers migrating into a city tends to raise the cost of housing, but economics is about making the right trade offs.

Additionally, a survey by ITIF:
Immigrants comprise a large and vital component of U.S. innovation: 35.5 percent of U.S. innovators were born outside the United States. Another 10 percent of innovators have at least one parent born abroad. Over 17 percent of innovators are not even U.S. citizens, yet are nonetheless making in valuable contributions to U.S. innovation. Immigrants born in Europe or Asia are over five times more likely to have created an innovation in America than the average native-born U.S. citizen.

If eliminating the H-1B visa program will ensure slower job growth and make Americans poorer, great. Restrictionist policies is exactly what's needed to make America great again.

The National Science Foundation found that only 5 percent of Americans with bachelor's degrees in engineering, computing, or math were involuntarily working outside their field in 2010. Lies. Republican contingent claim 8 million qualified Americans can't find STEM jobs. They rely on statistics based on the Census Bureau's job categorization that counts a physics professor as an educator not a STEM worker, and a computer engineer who has moved into the management side of an IT company as non-STEM.

Obviously the National Science Foundation needs to get their stats straight.

Claims of wages going up for American citizens in STEM are also a lie.

Lastly, A 2013 Brookings Institute study found that foreign tech workers are paid about $9,000 more than Americans with STEM bachelor's degrees in the same occupation and with the same level of experience likely because they "provide hard-to-find skills."

Are we to believe that foreign workers don't threaten American jobs or diminish American wages? By boosting the productivity and growth of American companies, they do the opposite? These companies aren't going to relocate to where these foreign workers are just to remain globally competitive. And if they couldn't do that, they'd shut down or scale back or automate or never take off in the first place? Restrictionist policies would not protect American jobs or wages? Bull, I say. Bull.

 

[Plutonius]

There are more than 220k tech jobs available. I am not sure why people are not ready for them. I don't think those number are fake

http://www.inc.com/salvador-rodriguez/act-software-developers-map.html

When you actually apply for the jobs, you find that they really aren't there. Most companies advertise for jobs because

1) They want some people they can quickly choose from if and when they need to hire (i.e. they are not really hiring at the moment).

2) It gives them cover for the H1-B hires (i.e. the salary and requirements are tailored for the low cost H1-B they want to hire).

3) It's great PR for the companies stock prices (i.e. they are advertising for workers so they must be doing well).

 

[konqueror4u]

When you actually apply for the jobs, you find that aren't really there. Most companies advertise for jobs because

1) They want some people they can quickly choose from if and when they need to hire (i.e. they are not really hiring at the moment).

2) It gives them cover for the H1-B hires (i.e. the salary and requirements are tailored for the low cost H1-B they want to hire.

3) It's great PR for the companies stock prices (i.e. they are advertising so they must be doing well).

You may be right but let me tell you that Highly skilled jobs are very dynamic in nature you need to constantly update your skills. we will be needed as long as our skills are in demand once they are outdated there ends the job. I don't think there will be more full time long term highly skilled jobs in future they will be just hire and fire jobs. If you are reluctant to update your skills that is the end.

 

[Gasu E.]

Let's match your anecdotal evidence with mine. I am an H1-B visa holder; furthermore, I am also an electrical engineer that works as Digital Lead for my company. Why? Because they couldn't find an American with my qualifications or education background necesary to fill in the post. Let me rewind back a bit to my commencement ceremony. Out of 1034 students at my university, only 34 were engineer graduates. 6 were electrical and not one was American, we were all foreign born from Latin America (me), India, and China. The other engineers for other majors? Only 2 were American, and they obtained Civil. The rest in the ceremony? Well, they were all Business, English, Geography, Fine Art, Photography, Education majors and yes those were filled with Americans. Funny story.

Fair enough. But, you were exactly the type of person the H1-B program was designed for, in theory. However, the vast majority of H1-B visas are abused. They are grabbed up by outsourcing firms and a few very large corporations; IBM being notorious for this. And here's how the abuse goes: they bring in new graduates, fresh from India, for example; have them shadow an American worker for some time, learning his job; then send them back to India and fire the American.

Currently, the H1-B is designed to be entirely corporate driven. H1-B via holders can only work for the company that gets them the visa. That sounds as though it is "keeping down immigration", but in fact it works against AMERICAN workers. The H1-B workers are essentially slaves who have no wage bargaining power; therefore they are much cheaper than American workers. Why wouldn't a corporation prefer that?

The H1-B program would be much better if it were re-purposed to be more about attracting high skilled foreign workers to American and increasing the pool of top talent. All or some of it could be replaced by such things as:

- Work permits for new STEM graduates of American universities. We train the top foreign talent in our best universities; and rightfully so, since the top talent is what keeps these universities great. But why don't we retain it? A total waste.

- Easily-obtained visas and work permits for foreigners with advanced STEM degrees from top foreign universities. These should NOT be tied to a specific company.

- Some flexibility of H1-B visas to move with the worker, even if s/he switches to another company.

As you say, we don't have enough native-born STEM talent. STEM workers in general are critical, because each STEM worker creates a whole bunch of supporting jobs. If you have the primary STEM workers elsewhere, the supporting jobs move as well. So it is worth bringing in additional STEM workers for their overall beneficial impact on the job market and economy.