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Architecture wise, Apple/TSMC are doing very well with SoCs. However, Apple's lack of productivity and features are why I am looking elsewhere for a daily smartphone. I am content with the SE as a little powerhouse, but not with the 7+ or any new flagships for my daily drivers. The iPhone isn't up to date with productivity like the iPad is.
 
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"7nm" is marketing. It's just a name for the process technology. The transistors aren't actually 7nm. Think back to "4G vs LTE", 4G was actually 3G, LTE Is actually real 4G.
I understand your analogy, but was not aware that this was a thing. So how does this correlate to the transistor size? This is not an area I am well versed.
 
"TSMC's 10 nm node, which first showed up in Apple's A10X chip in the iPad Pro, followed by the A11, has been fraught with issues"

Just because the idiot press runs with this story doesn't mean MacRumors has to.
The truth is that, far from there being any sort of problem here, what Apple and TSMC have done is freaking incredible.
Every year Apple delivers a new processor design, almost every year TSMC delivers a new process. And the two work together incredibly. The A11 CPU is around 3 to 4x faster than the A7 CPU in single-threaded performance, half from process (2x speedup from 1.3 to 2.6GHz), half from constantly improving Apple micro-architecture. And that's not including the substantially higher increase in GPU performance, or the the media encoders, or the NPU or ...

This pace
A7 28nm
A8 20nm
A9 16nm
A10 16nm++
A11 10nm
is way beyond Intel, who've now been stuck at the same process node for a tock and two optimizations...
And we're supposed to be upset about this? TSMC is "troubled" because they can reinvent the world every 18 months?

When Apple DOES have a chance to optimize against a process (like the A9 to A10 transition) they can make good use of the opportunity. (Frequency boost of 27% in that case.) But even when they can't optimize for the process, just using the new process in the least daring, most conventional way still gives you a nice win (10% frequency boost for the A11, along with lots more transistors for the small cores, the custom GPU, the NPU).

The A11X will be on a new process (7nm) so probably, like the A10X, will not be very daring in ramping up frequency, just using the density for extra cores and larger GPU/NPU.
The A12 likewise will be on that 7nm process and perhaps again not too daring in frequency (maybe another 10% taking it to 2.85GHz) so expect a similar story like this next year --- sure, sure, Apple's new chip now beats not only Intel's m-Class mobile CPUs but now also beats the H-class 45W pro laptop CPUS --- which all goes to show how Apple and TSMC are in "deep trouble with a problematic 7nm process".

Finally enough with this "short-lived" vs "long-lived" process nonsense. Once again a stupid attempt to create drama where there is none. Remember that supposed failure, the TSMC 20nm process? Well, TSMC is still offering it. People are still using it. It's a perfectly valid design choice for certain tasks, just like 28nm or 65nm, or 16nm are all also valid design choices.
[doublepost=1505507511][/doublepost]
Can't wait...My predications GB4:

A11X = 5000 single core / 17,000 multicore
A12 = 5500 single core / 20,000 multicore

This looks about right!

That's likely pessimistic. A small core is worth about 1/4 of a big core. (Varies depending on the exact benchmark, up to 1/3 for some code, down to ~1/10th for dense FP code). So that would naively give A11X around 20K for multicore.
But that assumes a single 4-small-core cluster, and we don't know what Apple's plans in this regard are.

One possibility is that small cores are to be used as is publicly assumed, to run "lightweight" threads. I don't buy this; I don't believe there is enough of that sort of work on an iOS device to require four cores. My PERSONAL suspicion is that these cores are to be used in conjunction with the GPU to switch the graphics model from todays standard model to a ray-tracing model. (Computation on the GPU, control and sequencing on the small cores.) If I'm correct, expect to see a ray-tracing API at next WWDC, and in a few years a UI that incorporates ray tracing.

Anyway assume I'm correct. Then the number of small cores needs to scale with the size of the screen, meaning that we might get a six-element cluster (which seems tight for a single L2), or two 4-element clusters, both of which boost the multicore score even higher.

(BTW I'm referring to the integer score, not the aggregate score, because integer is the one that matters most for normal purposes, and throwing in the crypto, FP and mem scores just confuses the issue.)
 
I've been a customer of TSMC for over 15 years, and I love their logo: that's what we use TSMC for, to get a wafer back, and we better be aware of yield! (Represented the black -i.e. unworking - squares in the wafer.)

As a matter of fact, I was at this conference Wednesday, and a tool vendor concerned with yield made the point that changes in the logo represent (forgetting exact percentage) a 20% increase in yield over the past 10 years :)
I had no idea but that makes perfect sense looking at it now. Understanding something can change your appreciation of it. Thanks for the info.
 
$


Perhaps when they launch their 7nm process it will finally catch up with what Intel has been putting out for a few years now.
 
Qualcomm has announced that its premium mobile platform is powering Samsung's latest flagship — digitimes.
link

Qualcomm has announced that its premium mobile platform is underpowering Samsung's latest flagship. Fixed that for you, Digitimes, what other explanation is there for not being about to do 1080p at 240fps?
 
I understand your analogy, but was not aware that this was a thing. So how does this correlate to the transistor size? This is not an area I am well versed.

So these days process technology is generally defined by pitch size of the lithography etching. TSMC's "7nm" gate pitch is 54 nm and interconnect pitch is 40 nm. The smaller these numbers the better, because it means you can pack transistors more densely on a wafer, which reduces costs and improves efficiency.

The "7nm" TSMC process is roughly equivalent to Intel's "10nm" process. This is a very basic explanation and in no way explains the various other intricacies that define process node tech. A more important metric is transistor density, and that's where Intel is really ahead of the game. This also has power/heat implications.
 
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Can't wait...My predications GB4:

A11X = 5000 single core / 17,000 multicore
A12 = 5500 single core / 20,000 multicore

This looks about right!

Just like Intel, the chipnwill hit a wall and speed increases will slow to a crawl with each new generation.

I'm taking bets on it. Want in?
 
The relatively low IPC improvement on the A11 shows Apple has gathered most of the low hanging fruit for performance increases.
The CPU's in the A11 are running faster. As for IPC increase we don't even know where Apple placed its priorities in the chips design. Most of the evolution could have gone into the new GPU and Neural engine. I really can't see how you can make the statement that the low hanging fruit is gone. There are many considerations including the fact that Apple is very aware of power usage in theses designs and will bias to power efficiency first.
This 7nm node will be important. With the A11 and A10X not showing much clock increases, it's further evidence 10nm is a half-node step.

Again this is a ridiculous statement as you don't know what Apples goals where. They are claiming about a 30% increase in performance out of the main CPU's while I will wait for proof they have been fairly honest about compute speed ups before. How they got that performance increase really isn't as important as it happening in the first place. Also there is a lot more chip here than ever before by the time you count up all the high performance processors you will likely go past a 12 count. The fact hat they got all these individual engines to run on the SoC while still being more power efficient is just amazing.

By the way I'm not trying to dismiss the importance of 7nm but 10nm certainly doesn't deserve this damning. With 10 nm Apple has accomplished something amazing in my mind.
[doublepost=1505513651][/doublepost]
Architecture wise, Apple/TSMC are doing very well with SoCs. However, Apple's lack of productivity and features are why I am looking elsewhere for a daily smartphone. I am content with the SE as a little powerhouse, but not with the 7+ or any new flagships for my daily drivers. The iPhone isn't up to date with productivity like the iPad is.
What does that even mean?
[doublepost=1505514142][/doublepost]People please read this post. There is nothing wrong with TSMC's 10nm that any other node hasn't had. For those of you not familiar with manufacturing (sadly most of the USA) process evolve over time as the users develop skills with the new equipment and engineering validates new methods.

I'm not sure where all the A11 negativity is coming from these days (maybe Samsung engineers). What Apple has managed to do with A11 should amaze anyone, including most of the engineers at Intel.

"TSMC's 10 nm node, which first showed up in Apple's A10X chip in the iPad Pro, followed by the A11, has been fraught with issues"

Just because the idiot press runs with this story doesn't mean MacRumors has to.
The truth is that, far from there being any sort of problem here, what Apple and TSMC have done is freaking incredible.
Every year Apple delivers a new processor design, almost every year TSMC delivers a new process. And the two work together incredibly. The A11 CPU is around 3 to 4x faster than the A7 CPU in single-threaded performance, half from process (2x speedup from 1.3 to 2.6GHz), half from constantly improving Apple micro-architecture. And that's not including the substantially higher increase in GPU performance, or the the media encoders, or the NPU or ...

This pace
A7 28nm
A8 20nm
A9 16nm
A10 16nm++
A11 10nm
is way beyond Intel, who've now been stuck at the same process node for a tock and two optimizations...
And we're supposed to be upset about this? TSMC is "troubled" because they can reinvent the world every 18 months?

When Apple DOES have a chance to optimize against a process (like the A9 to A10 transition) they can make good use of the opportunity. (Frequency boost of 27% in that case.) But even when they can't optimize for the process, just using the new process in the least daring, most conventional way still gives you a nice win (10% frequency boost for the A11, along with lots more transistors for the small cores, the custom GPU, the NPU).

The A11X will be on a new process (7nm) so probably, like the A10X, will not be very daring in ramping up frequency, just using the density for extra cores and larger GPU/NPU.
The A12 likewise will be on that 7nm process and perhaps again not too daring in frequency (maybe another 10% taking it to 2.85GHz) so expect a similar story like this next year --- sure, sure, Apple's new chip now beats not only Intel's m-Class mobile CPUs but now also beats the H-class 45W pro laptop CPUS --- which all goes to show how Apple and TSMC are in "deep trouble with a problematic 7nm process".

Finally enough with this "short-lived" vs "long-lived" process nonsense. Once again a stupid attempt to create drama where there is none. Remember that supposed failure, the TSMC 20nm process? Well, TSMC is still offering it. People are still using it. It's a perfectly valid design choice for certain tasks, just like 28nm or 65nm, or 16nm are all also valid design choices.
[doublepost=1505507511][/doublepost]

That's likely pessimistic. A small core is worth about 1/4 of a big core. (Varies depending on the exact benchmark, up to 1/3 for some code, down to ~1/10th for dense FP code). So that would naively give A11X around 20K for multicore.
But that assumes a single 4-small-core cluster, and we don't know what Apple's plans in this regard are.

One possibility is that small cores are to be used as is publicly assumed, to run "lightweight" threads. I don't buy this; I don't believe there is enough of that sort of work on an iOS device to require four cores. My PERSONAL suspicion is that these cores are to be used in conjunction with the GPU to switch the graphics model from todays standard model to a ray-tracing model. (Computation on the GPU, control and sequencing on the small cores.) If I'm correct, expect to see a ray-tracing API at next WWDC, and in a few years a UI that incorporates ray tracing.

Anyway assume I'm correct. Then the number of small cores needs to scale with the size of the screen, meaning that we might get a six-element cluster (which seems tight for a single L2), or two 4-element clusters, both of which boost the multicore score even higher.

(BTW I'm referring to the integer score, not the aggregate score, because integer is the one that matters most for normal purposes, and throwing in the crypto, FP and mem scores just confuses the issue.)
 
The CPU's in the A11 are running faster. As for IPC increase we don't even know where Apple placed its priorities in the chips design. Most of the evolution could have gone into the new GPU and Neural engine. I really can't see how you can make the statement that the low hanging fruit is gone. There are many considerations including the fact that Apple is very aware of power usage in theses designs and will bias to power efficiency first.


Again this is a ridiculous statement as you don't know what Apples goals where. They are claiming about a 30% increase in performance out of the main CPU's while I will wait for proof they have been fairly honest about compute speed ups before. How they got that performance increase really isn't as important as it happening in the first place. Also there is a lot more chip here than ever before by the time you count up all the high performance processors you will likely go past a 12 count. The fact hat they got all these individual engines to run on the SoC while still being more power efficient is just amazing.

By the way I'm not trying to dismiss the importance of 7nm but 10nm certainly doesn't deserve this damning. With 10 nm Apple has accomplished something amazing in my mind.
[doublepost=1505513651][/doublepost]
What does that even mean?
[doublepost=1505514142][/doublepost]People please read this post. There is nothing wrong with TSMC's 10nm that any other node hasn't had. For those of you not familiar with manufacturing (sadly most of the USA) process evolve over time as the users develop skills with the new equipment and engineering validates new methods.

I'm not sure where all the A11 negativity is coming from these days (maybe Samsung engineers). What Apple has managed to do with A11 should amaze anyone, including most of the engineers at Intel.

I was complimenting Apple/TSMC' past collaborations. The A11 processor is heads and shoulders above the Snapdragon 835. However, what's the point of an iPhone X or 8+ that doesn't take advantage a big screen as much like other products? The iPad has split screen multi-tasking but not the 8+ or X. I feel like Android does more for my productivity work because the current crop of iPhones do not offer an intuitive stylus experience. There are other things like iTunes that get in the way as well. Memory is costly on an iPhone as well.
 
I've been a customer of TSMC for over 15 years, and I love their logo: that's what we use TSMC for, to get a wafer back, and we better be aware of yield! (Represented the black -i.e. unworking - squares in the wafer.)

As a matter of fact, I was at this conference Wednesday, and a tool vendor concerned with yield made the point that changes in the logo represent (forgetting exact percentage) a 20% increase in yield over the past 10 years :)

I bet there’s a secret message based on which squares are blacked out in their logo... like Apple with their media invites!
 
$


Perhaps when they launch their 7nm process it will finally catch up with what Intel has been putting out for a few years now.

And yet Apple ships a SoC that is basically the same size as, say, a Kaby Lake dual processor, faster (single and multithreaded), uses less power, has better GPU performance, and includes a whole ton of OTHER useful stuff (like ISP and NPU).
So what exactly is that supposed Intel process advantage getting you? It doesn't result in smaller (or cheaper) chips, or better performance, or more functionality, or lower power.
The ONLY thing it seems good for is producing slides for fanboys.
 
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And yet Apple ships a SoC that is basically the same size as, say, a Kaby Lake dual processor, faster (single and multithreaded), uses less power, has better GPU performance, and includes a whole ton of OTHER useful stuff (like ISP and NPU).
So what exactly is that supposed Intel process advantage getting you? It doesn't result in smaller (or cheaper) chips, or better performance, or more functionality, or lower power.
The ONLY thing it seems good for is producing slides for fanboys.
Faster at Geekbench, which I suppose is cool if you want to run that and nothing else. https://www.pcper.com/reviews/Mobil...-Pro-2017-Best-Productivity-Tablet/Performanc
Seems the performance is not there if you run something other than simple synthetics.

I'd suggest having a read of this if you want to educate yourself on where the different foundry processes currently sit, as the number they stick on it doesn't count for much.
https://www.semiwiki.com/forum/content/6713-14nm-16nm-10nm-7nm-what-we-know-now.html
 
So these days process technology is generally defined by pitch size of the lithography etching. TSMC's "7nm" gate pitch is 54 nm and interconnect pitch is 40 nm. The smaller these numbers the better, because it means you can pack transistors more densely on a wafer, which reduces costs and improves efficiency.

The "7nm" TSMC process is roughly equivalent to Intel's "10nm" process. This is a very basic explanation and in no way explains the various other intricacies that define process node tech. A more important metric is transistor density, and that's where Intel is really ahead of the game. This also has power/heat implications.
Thanks for the info!
 
then they should have done it a long time ago. :rolleyes:

I don't think you understand my post. You order CPUs by the 10K recently?

When you are 1 of 3 companies in the world that are capable of making your product, the other businesses buying from you don't care what your logo looks like.
 
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I don't think you understand my post. You order CPUs by the 10K recently?

When you are 1 of 3 companies in the world that are capable of making your product, the other businesses buying from you don't care what your logo looks like.

No I understood your point. Steve Jobs was a consumer and cared about these trivial things. So is Jony.
 
I think what people are missing about the TSMC logo is that it's memorable. It fulfils the only practical purpose of a logo. And in a world of beautiful logos, it serves its purpose even better! Not that they're a branding-centric company mind you.

I will never forget the TSMC logo, and for that, damn you TSMC!

P.S. Just be thankful they don't design smartphones.
 
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