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If that were the case they wouldn't be trying (and failing) to comply.
They are simply showing they made a good faith effort to comply and that ACM is being unreasonable. Apple is betting when this goes to court and if the entire legality of the order is not sided in their favor, then they will at least have the fines reduced or set aside by being ruled in compliance. This was always going to court. It just needed to play out through this process first.
 
Together with EU’s DMA/DSA, this will end in x billions or even shutdown, if they continue to act stubborn like that. Many lawsuits, bills in different continents and countries, but all pulling the same rope.
I do believe that countries WILL drive Apple out eventually. It won’t be a decision that Apple would WANT to make, but there’s little they can do if those countries would rather prevent their citizens from purchasing Apple phones. And, that’s fine, China and Russia has driven companies out, EU would just be another territory doing the same.
 
I do believe that countries WILL drive Apple out eventually. It won’t be a decision that Apple would WANT to make, but there’s little they can do if those countries would rather prevent their citizens from purchasing Apple phones. And, that’s fine, China and Russia has driven companies out, EU would just be another territory doing the same.
The delusion it must take to believe Apple will just leave one of the world’s biggest markets over this. It boggles the mind.
 
Two things. First, making a threat and following through on a threat are two different things. The article you linked even mentions how unlikely such an outcome would be. Second, the UK is a market about 15% the size of the EU.
 
Two things. First, making a threat and following through on a threat are two different things. The article you linked even mentions how unlikely such an outcome would be. Second, the UK is a market about 15% the size of the EU.
The point is apple did publicly mention about pulling out of a major market.
 
I do believe that countries WILL drive Apple out eventually. It won’t be a decision that Apple would WANT to make, but there’s little they can do if those countries would rather prevent their citizens from purchasing Apple phones. And, that’s fine, China and Russia has driven companies out, EU would just be another territory doing the same.
The thing is, the same will come to more core market countries incl. U.S., it’s just happening a bit slower, it’s inevitable.
 
There’s also a reason why ALL of the companies they want to pass this law for were created OUTSIDE the EU. Perhaps having EU level consumer rights and privacy rights = no companies like Apple.
Yeah, companies using core technologies invented in the EU.
It’s the only thing i have to admit that USA is better at this, they don’t easily allow important inventions to be sold to other countries.
E.g. Kuka robots invented in Germany sold to China. Computer, SMS, SimCard, Braille, Stethoscope, Blood transfusion, Antibiotics, Face Transplant, Linux, hell even YouTube and much more comes from the EU, but maybe it’s better that way.
Companies prefer to launch stuff in the U.S. because it’s more Kapitalist than the EU, while the EU pushes the human race forward, just like the right to install(sideload) software will.

 
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How can EU or anyone make Apple or a company take decisions of theit business? Apple make products and has its own market, of course they will make the rules.
What??
So by your argument if a company does something with their business case it’s all fine? But (rightfully so) crying when a medicine company inflates the prices by 700%. Or when Skripalli bought that medicine a couple years ago. Would you also say “well it’s their decision how they run a business”?

I am pro regulation since people and companies are not so great at self regulating.

Everyone is screaming when Microsoft pushes Edge, while you have a choice to have a different browser. And being fined way more then 50 million for it. But when Apple does it is all fine. And don’t come with Apple isn’t a monopoly, in a lot of age categories it is. Over 50% market share in the US. And 50% is by some considered a threshold to consider if a company has a monopoly…
 
There’s also a reason why ALL of the companies they want to pass this law for were created OUTSIDE the EU. Perhaps having EU level consumer rights and privacy rights = no companies like Apple.
Perhaps that’s the case. Outside of the majority of the foundational technology was invented in Europe by European companies. It’s just very easy for a company to buy them in EU as no regulation prevents it. Except today DMA now forced big companies to disclose the intent to purchase small companies for scrutiny.

So tell me this, should we prefer company rights or consumer rights? Consumer privacy or company right to your information?
Now, ask a new question.

“This could be implemented fairly soon using RTS. However, all of your messages would have to go through Google.” and see what happens once there’s even the barest understanding of the circumstances involved. The “unsure” group are at least aware that “this SOUNDS good, but what’s the catch?”
Your messages could go through anywhere. It’s up to market to decide.
Apple and google both use Wi-Fi, but only apple have airplay. Both use Bluetooth, but only apple support the H1 seamless paring mechanism. Both support the Qi charging standard but only apple have MagSafe charging.
Both support usb c on their tables, but only apple includes thunderbolts as well.

Both supports Enojis, but only apple have their uneque appearance.

This will be the same. iMessage supports SMS/MMS standard and( insert new universal E2EE communication) to send text to signal, WhatsApp, RCS android but only apple devices can receive iMessages.
People wanting what’s impossible or impractical is nothing unique or special. If someone does a poll for something that’s possible, that they want to get an idea of if it would be financially worth doing, their poll would provide a valuable result. Kickstarter and Indiegogo depend on this kind of “polling”.

If someone does a poll for
“a mode of transportation that takes you safely from their home to <their favorite vacation spot> in less than 1 hour”,
“a strawberry tart with rat in it”
“a strawberry tart without so much rat in it”
and the majority choose the first, that doesn’t really say anything about the option, just that people like fantasies :)
This isn’t impractical or impossible. As all the above examples. You can support a standard and still have your proprietary solution between your own devices.

Email clients have many security standards and proprietary solutions but still allow communication to any other client without you needing to know or care about their solution. Apple’s iCloud relay and privacy feature doesn’t only work with other iCloud mails and doesn’t care for the program the recipient uses.
They are simply showing they made a good faith effort to comply and that ACM is being unreasonable. Apple is betting when this goes to court and if the entire legality of the order is not sided in their favor, then they will at least have the fines reduced or set aside by being ruled in compliance. This was always going to court. It just needed to play out through this process first.
Yea, good luck being partially in compliance isn’t a thing. And civil law courts have a very interesting quirk when it comes to these things. judges are often described as “investigators.” They take the lead in the proceedings by bringing charges, establishing facts through witness examination and applying remedies found in legal codes. codified statutes. Lawyers present arguments based on the evidence the court finds.

Evidence demands are within the sovereign inquisitorial function of the court — not within the lawyers’ role. As such, “discovery” by foreign attorneys is dimly viewed, and can even lead to criminal sanctions

In civil law countries, only the judicial decisions of administrative and constitutional courts are binding outside the original case. In essence, the concept of precedent, i.e. past cases can determine the outcome of future ones, is not used.
How can EU or anyone make Apple or a company take decisions of theit business? Apple make products and has its own market, of course they will make the rules.

Well eu will never make a decision on apple’s business. It’s simply saying if you want to do business here, you must follow local laws.
 
So tell me this, should we prefer company rights or consumer rights? Consumer privacy or company right to your information?

I will say that so far, the measures being proposed seemed geared towards benefiting smaller business, and not so much end users.

And in Apple’s case, company rights often mean consumer rights as well. So our incentives (and disincentives) are pretty aligned in that regard.

For example, the absence of sideloading (something that benefits Apple) means my right to a closed App Store which in turn means better security (my benefit as well).

Not saying there isn’t any (benefit) for us, but I find it’s telling that there seems to be little, if no, feedback solicited from the ground. It’s all just companies like Spotify, Epic and Tile banging tables and complaining of unfair competition when in reality, “unfair” just means “not to my benefit”.
 
The delusion it must take to believe Apple will just leave one of the world’s biggest markets over this. It boggles the mind.
Apple is not going to leave one of the world’s biggest markets as long as they’re making a profit. However, if the fees to operate in the market are greater than the amount of profit to be made from the market, then the value of maintaining the market decreases significantly.
 
The thing is, the same will come to more core market countries incl. U.S., it’s just happening a bit slower, it’s inevitable.
Not likely, but we’ll see. In multiple states and at the federal level, there’s been overtures, but after reviewing the precedents that could be set which would pull every other company that charges a percentage for a service into court, those measures have not gone forward.
 
Perhaps that’s the case. Outside of the majority of the foundational technology was invented in Europe by European companies.
Not worth googling the point. Assuming the EU is good at inventing then it must be horrible at fostering and growing, which is my point.

So tell me this, should we prefer company rights or consumer rights? Consumer privacy or company right to your information?
It’s not black and white, companies and consumers both have rights and the combinations and interplay OF those rights US gives us today’s iPhone. I prefer “whatever that was”.
 
I will say that so far, the measures being proposed seemed geared towards benefiting smaller business, and not so much end users.

And in Apple’s case, company rights often mean consumer rights as well. So our incentives (and disincentives) are pretty aligned in that regard.
That is because EU legislation concentrates more on the market and citizens. Company rights almost never aligns with consumer rights. Instead of exclusively on consumer harm
For example, the absence of sideloading (something that benefits Apple) means my right to a closed App Store which in turn means better security (my benefit as well).

Not saying there isn’t any (benefit) for us, but I find it’s telling that there seems to be little, if no, feedback solicited from the ground. It’s all just companies like Spotify, Epic and Tile banging tables and complaining of unfair competition when in reality, “unfair” just means “not to my benefit”.

allowing sideloading won't remove your freedoms.
 
That is because EU legislation concentrates more on the market and citizens. Company rights almost never aligns with consumer rights. Instead of exclusively on consumer harm


allowing sideloading won't remove your freedoms.
Sideloading will turn iOS into a garbage dump, imo. Kill the ecosystem. Companies will be more careful going forward about what tech is deployed in the EU turning the EU into second class tech citizens.
 
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Apple is not going to leave one of the world’s biggest markets as long as they’re making a profit. However, if the fees to operate in the market are greater than the amount of profit to be made from the market, then the value of maintaining the market decreases significantly.
Never going to happen as long as apple is a hardware company. Apple could lose 100% of AppStore profit and they will still not leave on the basis on the profitability of their hardware exist.
The EU just doesn’t have the structure in place to foster business and actually DO anything with core technologies. Agreed.
They have, EU just haven’t existed that long. When apple was founded EU didn’t exist. All the biggest companies in Europe was founded way before EU was conceived.

  • Volkswagen Germany 1993
  • AXA France
  • TESCO UK 1919
  • nestle Switzerland 1890
  • Ericsson Sweden 1886
  • Nokia Finland 1865
  • Philips the Netherlands 1891
worthy to note we had WW that destroyed Europe giving US the economic advantage it needed
Not worth googling the point. Assuming the EU is good at inventing then it must be horrible at fostering and growing, which is my point.
EU is very good at fostering growth in a stable manner, even before European nations have been good at fostering growth. Why do you think every global economic crisis have started in the US banking and stock market sector being the main cause?

USA regularly saves their banks or failing companies every time, while Europe and EU have a history of letting companies fail

In Europe, fairness and reasonableness are still guiding much of economic life and are enshrined in law in all but three EU27 countries. And Banks are responsible for the vast amount of corporate funding instead of using investors who are easily swayed by empty promises. Shareholder profits aren’t equally important or religiously followed.
It’s not black and white, companies and consumers both have rights and the combinations and interplay OF those rights US gives us today’s iPhone. I prefer “whatever that was”.
It’s very black and white. The states job is to protect and ensure its citizens rights. That includes against corporate exploitation without consent or proper compensation.

EU and USA have opposite values when it comes to privacy and personal freedom on the expense of corporations.

Hence why the EU court of justice invalidates an agreement with USA making it effectively illegal for American companies to store EU user data on American soil. On the basis the American companies can be compelled by the federal government to give access to user data without a due process for the accused.
 
It removes my choice to not have a choice. It's one of the reasons I choose iOS over android in the first place, that this "lack of choice" has been instrumental in shaping developer behaviour (often to my benefit).
Not at all. You can still choose to only use the iOS AppStore. For me I chose iPhone for hundreds of reasons that are superior to android. The AppStore or iOS being a gated community wasn’t one of them. And I would dare to say it’s true for the majority of users, that the AppStore being locked wasn’t even taken in to consideration.

And there is no expectation for any exodus to happen as many of the privacy features apple have as rules will be implemented by EU as a mandated privacy law so Facebook will still not be allowed to track users
WAIT WAIT! The market can decide? AWESOME! Since that’s literally what the market is doing right now, then, good. I agree.
Indeed. They just need to implement basic interoperability. How that will happen is up to the market to decide
 
Yea, good luck being partially in compliance isn’t a thing. And civil law courts have a very interesting quirk when it comes to these things. judges are often described as “investigators.” They take the lead in the proceedings by bringing charges, establishing facts through witness examination and applying remedies found in legal codes. codified statutes. Lawyers present arguments based on the evidence the court finds.

Evidence demands are within the sovereign inquisitorial function of the court — not within the lawyers’ role. As such, “discovery” by foreign attorneys is dimly viewed, and can even lead to criminal sanctions

In civil law countries, only the judicial decisions of administrative and constitutional courts are binding outside the original case. In essence, the concept of precedent, i.e. past cases can determine the outcome of future ones, is not used.
I didn't say they were partially in compliance. Apple has always maintained their proposed solution was fully in compliance and the ACM was overstepping their authority (and law) by demanding other things. This was always going to court and EU courts have frequently reined in regulators and struck down fines. The rest of this nonsense really doesn't mean anything.
 
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