Apple's iMessage Avoids EU's Digital Markets Act Regulation

[robertosh]

As an European I welcome that.

They have already completely destroyed the web experience with mandatory splash screens on every single website.

the splash screens is just a way to visualize the underlying crap that powers internet nowadays. Internet is rotten, in EU and everywhere.

 

[Ctrlos]

the EU is all over the place and out of control. one less thing to add bureaucracy to

I'd argue that it is taking the internet back for users. Whilst web1 still exists underneath everything (here we are on a forum!) Web2 companies have raised an entire generation into thinking the internet is just big monolithic apps. For some people Facebook is the internet. That is not good.

These companies were never supposed to have that much control over information and are responsible for user monitoring that would make the USSR blush. Because they use the illusion of 'free services' people are happy to feed them their data, unbeknownst to the actual cost in privacy.

2010 was the height of Web2 and the whole internet at this point was 2bn users. You would call that a marketplace. An infrastructure. A utility. In 2010 the average internet user would not have wanted one company in control of the entire stack of hardware, apps and network because this was in direct opposition to the ideals the network was founded upon.

In 2024 Apple is in this position alone. The iPhone (and Android) have grown so big that we cannot just see them as just another device, just another gadget. They are the whole network and whether they built it all or not no company should have that much centralised control over that many people.

I get the opposition to overzealous government interference but just imagine for a minute that a government of a country with 2bn citizens had centralised totalitarian control over every facet of life. You couldn't set up a business unless it was through their government-branded stores. They claimed innocence but were still collecting all your data so they can sell you more of their own products. And they could lock you out of your own house if they disagreed with your actions. Would you want to live there?

I would rather the democratically elected officials of a state stood up for my rights rather than having them trodden on by another monolithic organisation.

 

[vijayarx]

I’ll probably install WhatsApp again once the damn usernames are operative (why is it taking them so long??).

I know Signal is testing this and is there in alpha version, shall make it to stable soon. But, I never heard WhatsApp is having this in their pipeline or even thinking of this.

WhatsApp's USP is replacing Texting and Phone Number is the primary id and they boast it, I don't think they will ever do away with this... They already have Communities for hiding phone from large groups, which 99% of WhatsApp users don't know iota about.

I gave up WhatsApp in 2018 and till date I get calls from contacts to let them know my whatsapp number and they are surprised knowing I don't have one. Most of them say -- It;s free, install it 😁

 

[d686546s]

Everyone keeps repeating this mantra that Apple messages doesn’t interoperate with Android. Since day 1 they’ve supported SMS. You can send & receive messages with Android users perfectly fine.

"Messages" isn't the service, it's just an app that supports three separate protocols: SMS, MMS and iMessage. iMessage is the service and you say yourself that it doesn't support Android (or any other platform).

No one has ever argued that you cannot send messages between iOS and Android at all.

Sure Apple’s own protocol iMessage doesn’t support Android because it uses PKI encryption and the private decryption key is stored in the Secure Enclave hardware component on the A-series SoC for each device. Your faceID/touchID/passcode unlocks access to the Secure Enclave and the private key to view iMessages. How would an Android device decrypt the iMessage without this hardware? Please explain.

Presumably they'd have to change how they handle the encryption? Signal, WhatsApp and many others are capable of supporting e2ee across iOS, Android, MacOS and Windows, I'm sure Apple could figure it out.

 

[Hank001]

SMS functions as a P2P communication and does not go through a server.

That's not the case: an SMS gets sent to the users' telco, which sends a copy of it to the recipient. If it fails to deliver it tries it again at set intervals. Upto 3 days, and if still fails it'll get deleted from the telco's server. It's in plain text, with both phone numbers stored on the server. Any IT guy at that telco with access to that server can read it.

 

[Will Co]

And why would the people currently using only WhatsApp start using RCS?

I don't follow you. What's that got to do with my point?

 

[zelativity]

No way?! 🙄
Is that even to anyone's surprise?

 

[User 6502]

"Europe" is not a country 😉 guess I should have been more specific. Shops are not allowed to be open on Sundays here in Germany. WOLT for example is also not allowed to deliver groceries on Sundays. Only "Food deliveries" are allowed on Sundays. Poland and Austria are the same I think.

Confirming that Europe didn’t overregulate and individual countries are free to do as they please.

 

[hagar]

It didn't make sense anyhow, iMessage was made by Apple. Why do they have to be required to practically give it up.

Weird that people applaud for WhatsApp to become interoperable but are mad when it’s about Apple. Luckily the EU made fair rules that apply to all companies. None of that random emo stuff.

The EU is picking apart the pieces of the iOS ecosystem. Next up, “does the camera app have a dominant position”?

If Apple locked down the camera and blocked all third party camera apps, they definitely consider intervening. Like they’re doing with the NFC chip.

The law of unintended consequences, and some sites simply block EU IP address, very annoying if you are trying to check a US price and don't have the VPN on.

Malicious compliance causing consumers to be hurt.

the EU is all over the place and out of control. one less thing to add bureaucracy to

I’m very happy the EU is stepping in to break up huge tech in a sensible way. They’re allowing for interoperability, thus allowing new comers to get a chance. While not hurting those big companies too much.

 

[spinedoc77]

As long as RCS can send/receive properly sized video/pictures, I can manage group chats, and we get some sort of E2E encryption I'm more than happy. Apple can keep their walled garden, as the years go by I've detached myself more and more from it anyway.

 

[duffman9000]

That's very disappointing to hear, but honestly not that surprising, iMessage has never gotten a very large userbase in Europe, probably because it doesn't interoperate with Android.

What's funny is that Apple would be doing itself a favour if it did launch an Android app, a place where they could show Android users how great Apple services and software can be. However, that would also probably push it over the line into Gatekeeper territory... 😂

Apple has little reason to do any favors for Android users. It’s time for people to accept this.

 

[hans1972]

I asked ChatGPT 😀

While music streaming services like Spotify do operate in the digital space, they may not necessarily meet the criteria to be classified as gatekeepers under the DMA. Gatekeepers are typically characterized by their significant market power, which can be determined based on factors such as their market share, user base, and control over access to important digital services.

While Spotify is a major player in the music streaming industry, it may not have the same level of dominance or control over access to digital markets as some of the other companies targeted by the DMA, such as large tech platforms like Google, Amazon, Facebook (Meta), and Apple.

That said, regulations and legislation surrounding digital markets are constantly evolving, and there may be future updates or amendments to the DMA or other regulatory frameworks that could impact companies like Spotify.

Well, ChatGPT doesn't understand the problem because very few people on the Internet have written detailed juridical text about it.

Music services isn't part of the core platform services defined in the DMA, only video services.

 

[I7guy]

Weird that people applaud for WhatsApp to become interoperable but are mad when it’s about Apple. Luckily the EU made fair rules that apply to all companies. None of that random emo stuff.


If Apple locked down the camera and blocked all third party camera apps, they definitely consider intervening. Like they’re doing with the NFC chip.

Malicious compliance causing consumers to be hurt.


I’m very happy the EU is stepping in to break up huge tech in a sensible way. They’re allowing for interoperability, thus allowing new comers to get a chance. While not hurting those big companies too much.

I maintain it’s apples right to lock down anything they want and the customers right not to buy a product that doesn’t meet their requirements.

 

[timber]

I don't follow you. What's that got to do with my point?

Unsurprisingly you would want to cut back on WhatsApp which you currently have to use to talk with cross platform people.
Why would those people leave WhatsApp?

 

[jlc1978]

Malicious compliance causing consumers to be hurt.

Actually, for web sites it's companies deciding not to do business in the EU rather than comply with data protection requirements; thus they simply block EU users and don't have to worry about EU laws. Other simply don't ship to the EU.

That's different for gatekeepers where leaving the EU is not a realistic option, given the revenue it generates for them.

One thing I really like is even if I ship something from the EU their consumer protection laws still apply.

 

[Populus]

I know Signal is testing this and is there in alpha version, shall make it to stable soon. But, I never heard WhatsApp is having this in their pipeline or even thinking of this.

WhatsApp's USP is replacing Texting and Phone Number is the primary id and they boast it, I don't think they will ever do away with this... They already have Communities for hiding phone from large groups, which 99% of WhatsApp users don't know iota about.

I gave up WhatsApp in 2018 and till date I get calls from contacts to let them know my whatsapp number and they are surprised knowing I don't have one. Most of them say -- It;s free, install it 😁

Not that they will get rid of the number, but they will let you also choose a username, and let others locate/add you by the username, and I guess you will be able to let others only see your username, not your number.

I’m not making it up, the feature has been appearing both in the Android and the iOS betas. You can check it out on WABetaInfo.

 

[Will Co]

Unsurprisingly you would want to cut back on WhatsApp which you currently have to use to talk with cross platform people.
Why would those people leave WhatsApp?

It wouldn't matter if they did or did not. That's not my point. My point is that people who are using WhatsApp ONLY because of a lack of interoperability between iMessage and other messaging would stop using WhatsApp.

 

[KevinN206]

To be honest, the EU regulates everything to death locally, so those "local" businesses hardly even get the chance to grow big enough to be a potential market leader. Sad but true.

At this point I am almost surprised online shopping is not forbidden from taking orders on Sundays since this is an advantage over local stores, which are not allowed to be open on Sundays 😀

What kind of local regulations that inhibit small businesses from growing?

 

[WarmWinterHat]

My point is that people who are using WhatsApp ONLY because of a lack of interoperability between iMessage and other messaging would stop using WhatsApp.

That number is a rounding error.

 

[KevinN206]

Yes, but the far more important metric is Spotify is > 0% a European based company. 🙂 Apple’s App Store can only be used by around 40% of the phones in the EU, BUT because it’s not a European based company, it gets designated a “gatekeeper”.

And, it’s very likely true that, of that 40% market share, not ALL of those phones can actually access the current App Store due to being out of date. So, the market share of phones that can even use the current App Store is even lower than that.

I am curious. How would a government regulate streaming music in general and Spotify specifically? Spotify can be installed on pretty much all platforms.

 

[timber]

It wouldn't matter if they did or did not. That's not my point. My point is that people who are using WhatsApp ONLY because of a lack of interoperability between iMessage and other messaging would stop using WhatsApp.

The only way you can kill WhatsApp is by convincing every single person to buy an iPhone.

 

[KevinN206]

Everyone keeps repeating this mantra that Apple messages doesn’t interoperate with Android. Since day 1 they’ve supported SMS. You can send & receive messages with Android users perfectly fine. Sure Apple’s own protocol iMessage doesn’t support Android because it uses PKI encryption and the private decryption key is stored in the Secure Enclave hardware component on the A-series SoC for each device. Your faceID/touchID/passcode unlocks access to the Secure Enclave and the private key to view iMessages. How would an Android device decrypt the iMessage without this hardware? Please explain.

It really depends on how you and others interpret interoperability.

 

[1129846]

So basically the dodge it for now but they run the risk of crossing the line in the future. I would not be shock to learn Apple crosses the line in the future hence why they were being looked at. They wear/are danger close to being required.

 

[mrochester]

I am curious. How would a government regulate streaming music in general and Spotify specifically? Spotify can be installed on pretty much all platforms.

They would regulate the manner in which Spotify could make deals with record labels and musicians/content creators so that Spotify can’t use its control of the market to dictate terms to the content creators.

 

[KidAKidB]

Ridiculous. Apple should do it anyway.