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Hmm. I don't know. What's the difference between an intel pc and and intel running osX. Is it as simple as the OS? Has Jobs blurred the line between platforms and are we all now pc users... with a Mac OS.

If so Apple is staying true to itself... but I can't help but think that that powerbook is now just a pc... with a mac os.

The idea that macs could run Windows and Mac OS... god, that's exciting as hell. Thi is the swift blow that we've been waiting for all these years...
 
EricNau said:
I just bought a Mac for the first time, and so far I love it! But what does this switch mean for me, having just bought a computer using the IBM two weeks ago? Are software companies going to stop making software for my version of the Mac, or will it matter? I'm I going to have to buy a new iMac a year from now because I can't find software for mine (I was hoping to get atleast 3 years out of this one)
-----
And if you ask me...
Apple might as well just buy a toilet to flush their company down the drain, it'd be much faster than what thier doing now.
After all of this I predict apple will loose the qualitly they were once known for. And people running Windows on a Mac, sounds like a bad dream.
And if I'm wrong about any of this, or I'm clearly misunderstanding, please let me know.

It will run 3 years+ without any issues IF Apple does what they say they will do. You should be able to continue to get new and improved software in that time for it. Should is the key word there. I think Apple will continue the quality level of the hardware. Just because it will have an Intel processor I don't see why the rest of the hardware would go down in quality unless they outsource the engineering and I don't see that happening, not yet anyhow.
 
The iBooks and Powerbooks will probably get the Intel processor first. I don't see the eMac getting it, it will just stay with a G4 until it retires. Perhaps give it a nice 1.8 Ghz G4 at the end of it's life (The iMac should replace it at $999 including a G5). The Mac Mini should have Intel. Change the G5 Macs in 2007 to Intel assuming they are faster.
 
cr2sh said:
The idea that macs could run Windows and Mac OS... god, that's exciting as hell. Thi is the swift blow that we've been waiting for all these years...

That is exciting, but I still worry some developers will say the heck with spending the time and money to make a Mac version of the same software then. Apple has a very small marketshare and it will make more sense just to sell one Windows version and let the Apple users run it on Windows. Time will tell to see if this happens.
 
Point:

MacTruck said:
Not putting standard pc hardware in the new macs would REALLY suck. As they are cheaper and have a wider selection.

Counterpoint:

Being able to put all kinds of standard pc hardware in the new macs would REALLY suck. Then OS X has to have drivers and support for tons of hardware which bogs down the system a la Windows and just makes it work not as well. What do I mean by this?...

I have owned several PCs before I got my macs, and every single one did something different when I selected the "Sleep" (or maybe it was Standby...I forget) option in Windows. With OS X on my Macs, they all do exactly the right thing when put to sleep. Why? Because Apple can be absolutely sure that the hardware supports this correctly.
 
By the way, there was nothing 'preventing' you from loading Windows on your current G5 other than the fact that that Windows does not code for it.

The first releases of NT were Mac-able.
 
Elitism.

So you want Mac to be stuck at 2.5% marketshare do you?

The more marketshare, the more hardware and software will be supported.

Perhaps Logitech will release decent drivers, perhaps AOL, SKYPE will support video with their Messenging clients. The list is endless.

The Apple world will be a lot better with more marketshare.

Viruses - so what? I'd rather see more software and hardware support.

Apple will have to concentrate more on security.. helped already by a UNIX kernel and open source development ( i.e., Darwin).

Whatever the platform, viruses will be targeted due to popularity. Symbian is another good example, with over 60% of the smartphone market ( see recent quarterly results at symbian.com, there is enough users for virus writers to bother ).


cgratti said:
And say hello to antivirus software and spyware....
 
EricNau said:
Are software companies going to stop making software for my version of the Mac, or will it matter? I'm I going to have to buy a new iMac a year from now because I can't find software for mine (I was hoping to get atleast 3 years out of this one)

You should be fine. This is why Jobs introduced XCode 2.1 - with universal binaries, companies can now start compiling their programs for PPC and Intel, so new programs will work on both platforms, and of course all existing programs will work just fine.

EricNau said:
Apple might as well just buy a toilet to flush their company down the drain, it'd be much faster than what thier doing now.

I couldn't disagree with you more. Apple has amazing financials, and with the iPod/iTMS/podcasting/etc. alone, Apple is guaranteed to be around for quite a while. Jobs is not an idiot - he knows the industry extremely well, and is a visionary - for those reasons, I think he knows what he's doing. 😉 😎
 
Abercrombieboy said:
That is exciting, but I still worry some developers will say the heck with spending the time and money to make a Mac version of the same software then. Apple has a very small marketshare and it will make more sense just to sell one Windows version and let the Apple users run it on Windows. Time will tell to see if this happens.


I admit this is a possibility. I do think the circumstances might be different now though. For one thing, I'm guessing that OS/2 was no gem as far as the interface and whatnot goes, and that Windows at the time may have actually been more pleasant to use anyway. So if people could run their apps on Windows anyway and it wasn't that bad to use, why not switch completely? In the Mac OS vs. Windows case though, I think people will be much more reluctant to jump ship and may demand that their applications run natively in Mac OS, since at least in most Mac users' opinions, OS X is much nicer to use than Windows. I guess only time will tell.
 
shambolic said:
Whether or not it ships with a restricted set of hardware drivers, I'm sure the interest from the hacking community will be intense - imagine the prestige of being the first to get OSX386 running on a common PC. Plus, with the Darwin core of the OS already open source, writing additional device drivers is likely not too difficult.

With this in mind, I would have to imagine that Apple is tagging the 10.4.1 Intel DVDs in such a way that anyone who does leak it onto BitTorrent or other P2P systems will be easily traced...

Well, I'm sure we'll see it leaked and hacked once Apple moves to x86 (ie, once we have Intel Apples for sale).

It's just that now I'm fairly certain it'd be pretty pointless. I imagined that Apple must have made a version of OSX that would run on some small subset of the PC world for the developers. That's clearly not the case.
 
anastasis said:
By the way, there was nothing 'preventing' you from loading Windows on your current G5 other than the fact that that Windows does not code for it.

The first releases of NT were Mac-able.

Could you actually run the PPC version of NT on a mac with open firmware? (This is an honest question, not a flame).
 
cgratti said:
And say hello to antivirus software and spyware....

[sarcasm]Exactly, because Linux is swarming with spyware and viruses right? Oh wait, it's not, hmmm, but it runs on x86. How can that be?[/sarcasm]

Oh yeah, it's because it's the OS not the architecture!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
raphaelbrennan said:
I think that the transition is needed and i think that we will definitely have a vpc version that runs windows at full or near full speed. I am concerned that this will deter programmers from using the mac platform, "if they need it they will just install windows." On the other hand it would be easier for windows programmers to write for intel osx. This could spurr more development.

What do you all think?

VPC for Windows is basically a Virtual Machine manager - like VMWare.

I cannot believe that Apple has been building special Intel Macs for the past five years - the probably run Marklar on commodity PC's with certain good parts.

So... Virtual PC for Windows should be able to run OSX if its emulated hardware peripherals are supported. That's on non-Apple hardware. What Apple does about this situation and many others like it that will follow will determine the future of the company.
 
whooleytoo said:
My guess would be that it's ok to load an application that contains Altivec instructions, as long as those instructions are never executed (i.e. if there's code to detect the presence of an Altivec unit beforehand). Of course if those Altivec instructions were to be executed, the program would crash pretty darn quick.

So, the question is can the OS determine if a PowerPC application uses Altivec when it's launching. My guess is yes, and it'll prevent the application from launching, as the OS has no way of knowing if the app actually calls the troublesome code or not.
Nope -- you're coming at this from the wrong angle. Rosetta will be launched for any PowerPC only binary. It will take the x86 CPU and make it emulate a G3 class CPU. Calls to the OS will be passed directly to the x86 OS code, rather than emulating the PPC OS code.

So the app, assuming it has been well written, will have code to detect whether it can use Altivec and/or 64 bit opcodes. That code will find that neither is available; the application then has the choice: fall back to non-Altivec, 32 bit code, or terminate with an error.

Rosetta won't need to detect the Altivec code, except for terminating the app ungracefully if it's used. Instead, it just provides the standard methods for detecting the extensions, and will return "nup, not available" when asked about them. Much easier and much more elegant.

This is my guess -- and I'd stake my mortgage on it being very close to the truth (with allowances for some handwaving.) Care to take me up on the bet?

[edited to fix a typo.]
 
iDrinkKoolAid said:
I need to rely on Virtual PC many times since all my work (electrical engineering) is done in the dark side. But VPC is slow and it's buggy when you are doing some serious number crunching.

What sucks is that I have to wait another year until I upgrade my 12-inch 1.5 GHz PowerBook G4. I'm just wondering what (if any) PowerBook updates are in the pipeline until the new PowerBook Pentium M?

I wonder if the first iteration of Intel Macs would be an iffy implementation...

Man, I hear you. I almost failed out of an EE class since I bought a G5 as my only computer and Virtual PC wouldn't work on G5s back then... was pretty SOL as running PC software went.

Couldn't wine (http://www.winehq.com/) work on the new x86 macs? That would pretty much kill the need for virtual PC for the most part.
 
OSX probably will never run on a non-Apple intel box

[/QUOTE]I hope that all made sense. But to recap for clarity, I wouldn't worry about Mac OS X suffering the same fate as OS/2. I'm more worried about people hacking whatever Apple puts into place to keep Mac OS X on Apple computers only and letting any Tom, Dick, and Harry install Mac OS X on their Dell machine so that Apple sees little if any money.[/QUOTE]

Again, becuase of Apple custom integrated circuits and proprietary ROM's, OS X will not run on ANY wintel PC without a lot of help from Apple. What is interesting is that these new Macs, if they are able to run Windows natively and with very little emulation software, give corporate America a box with essentially 2 computers in one. I really don't think it is Apples intention to let PC users install OSX on their computers. I do think it is Apples intention to sell a Macintosh that can also run Windows and Windows apps. Talk about the ultimate switcher strategy...Once Windows users start using a Mac and Macintosh versions of their windows programs under OSX, with the Mac ease of use, I think they'll use the Windows side of their Intel Macs less and less...

Just a thought.
 
tsk said:
Well, I'm sure we'll see it leaked and hacked once Apple moves to x86 (ie, once we have Intel Apples for sale).

It's just that now I'm fairly certain it'd be pretty pointless. I imagined that Apple must have made a version of OSX that would run on some small subset of the PC world for the developers. That's clearly not the case.

Exactly, I'm sure this release only runs on one specific type of mobo/cpu/video card/any other configuration... plus I'm sure some sortof firmware is implemented to secure it is the right system... like a hardware key that some programs require...
 
Abercrombieboy said:
I see Apple makes everyone agree they will not publish any benchmarks on the 3.6Ghz Intel PowerMac they are selling to developers.

It would look sort of bad if the current G5's killed it in benchmarks and I am guessing they would. That should change in time however.

It would also probably look equally bad if a G5 got killed by the P4.
 
Abercrombieboy said:
I see Apple makes everyone agree they will not publish any benchmarks on the 3.6Ghz Intel PowerMac they are selling to developers.

It would look sort of bad if the current G5's killed it in benchmarks and I am guessing they would. That should change in time however.
It certainly WILL change, since Apple will NOT be replacing dual G5s with single 3.6 Intels. They'll be replacing dual G5s with whatever Intel has in 2007--and probably two of them 🙂

EricNau said:
I just bought a Mac for the first time, and so far I love it! But what does this switch mean for me, having just bought a computer using the IBM two weeks ago? Are software companies going to stop making software for my version of the Mac, or will it matter?
Nope, you'll have a great machine (best-looking desktop on the planet, too), lots of new software, and the next Mac OS (Leopard) will run on your machine too.

PowerPC Macs will be the biggest market for a LONG time, and with Universal Binaries, new apps can run on both types at full speed.

Rejoice 🙂 The sky has not fallen. Apple planned this well.

Stella said:
Viruses - so what? I'd rather see more software and hardware support.
OS X is more secure by design than Windows. Gaining users and going x86 are SOME factor, but far from the whole story.

And when Apple finds a flaw, they can fix it much more easily than MS can patch their bloated legacy mess.
 
tsk said:
[sarcasm]Exactly, because Linux is swarming with spyware and viruses right? Oh wait, it's not, hmmm, but it runs on x86. How can that be?[/sarcasm]

Oh yeah, it's because it's the OS not the architecture!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sorry, were you being sarcastic about Linux swarming with viruses, etc., or sarcastic about your last comment? I agree with your last comment, but I was just wondering because Linux is the least secure OS in the world, even moreso than Windows - just wanted to clarify.
 
admanimal said:
I admit this is a possibility. I do think the circumstances might be different now though. For one thing, I'm guessing that OS/2 was no gem as far as the interface and whatnot goes, and that Windows at the time may have actually been more pleasant to use anyway. So if people could run their apps on Windows anyway and it wasn't that bad to use, why not switch completely? In the Mac OS vs. Windows case though, I think people will be much more reluctant to jump ship and may demand that their applications run natively in Mac OS, since at least in most Mac users' opinions, OS X is much nicer to use than Windows. I guess only time will tell.

A key point is whether you'll be able to run Windows and Mac OS software side-by-side, as you can with VPC now. If you can't do this, a Windows version of an app is less attractive to a Mac user because they can't easily exchange data between the two operating systems.
 
The 64bit question

So here's an intesting issue. Not only are Apple developers being told to steer clear of SSE3 (according to sources at WWDC), but according to Apple's own universal binary guide:

The term x86 is a generic term used throughout this book to refer to the class of microprocessors manufactured by Intel. This book uses the term x86 as a synonym for IA-32 (Intel Architecture 32-bit).

So you could always say 64 bit Intel chips may be coming out, but it appears Apple doesn't want developers shooting for that. At least not now. Doesn't that kinda kill their Server offerings? I assume they'll use Itanium or Opteron in their servers. However, wasn't the PowerPC 970 half the reason why Apple was getting clusters into the supercomputing top 500?

I think this switch leaves me with more questions than answers. Let me post and answer a couple. I'd like other's thoughs:

1) What does Steve know about Intel that the rest of the world doesn't? Because AMD pretty much rocks their ass today.

-- I do not think this is 100% Jobs(TM) ego. I have to believe that, dispite a significant amount of groundwork, there is some screaming obvious reason why this will occur. Protables are a large part of that, for sure. But my guess is that Intel has some chips in the pipeline and technology to shrink die size that isn't common knowledge yet. (Read: where do they get a competing SOI process, etc?)

2) Related to number 1: Is this switch based primarily on the Pentium M and Pentium D lines?

-- My guess is yes, and that these two chips are Intel's future for x86. But I come back to why not AMD? Fear of supply problems? Why not mix it up? Logically this makes sense but Apple's documentation is NOT pointing at this route right now.

3) No more 64 bit desktop support?

-- A major marketing point on the G5's that doesn't really translate into much real world performance for users. For high end computing, yes. But I think this goes the way of AltiVec.

4) What improvements can we expect to Apple's hardware in the interim? Are we going to see dual core 970's in the PowerMac? What about the PowerBook and iBook?

-- After some careful consideration, I don't think PowerPC Macs will become "obsolete." Developers *have* to support them for probably 3+ years *after* the full transition is done because of the installed base. 2010 IMHO. But don't expect a PowerPC from 1998 to work on a 2010 OS X... so, once again, I think we see that the processor switch doesn't materially effect long term product usefulness any more than Apple's own actions do today. Apple already makes it difficult or annoying to use older Macs. I'm fine with this, but the condition already exists.

5) SSE3 vs. Altivec? Neither?

-- My guess is that optimizing programs for chip features such as SSE3 won't be done, dispite this being a critical feature, IMHO, for high performance Video, Audio, and scientific computation. Apple is favoring consumers and their buying needs now.

6) Does Apple eat Windows or is it going to be the other way around?

-- Dispite my fear that people won't bother to make Mac versions, I have to believe that most people who try a Mac will buy / want one. OS X is a major factor of that, along with the Hardware design. So, will the viruses, spyware, malware, that plague Windows be enough to get droves of people buying Macs? I don't think this switch hurts that. I think it helps. But it does make me wonder about Mac game development until OS X's marketshare is up in the teens or twenties.

I'd love to hear some of your thoughts on this. What do you think?
 
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