Apple's Internal Policy on Bad Pixels Revealed

[charlituna]

0 or you can be damn sure I am taking my product back for an on-the-spot return. They tried to explain this crap to me before. My response was to either put a new product in my hand or the money I paid for it. I once replaced an iPhone 3G twice in one day for this reason. Nice to see now that the iPhone is not allowed/ expected to have any.

And zero on an iphone is their policy. Because at that resolution pixels are visible.

But unless you have several clustered together, a dead pixel on a 22 inch or higher display is simply not visible. I'm in a 22 inch right now and at the lowest resolution that's over 300k pixels. And we are talking a res way way below what anyone is likely to use. For folks on something like a 27 inch you are starting at 1 million pixels

Point of fact, there's probably quite a number of displays out there in the hands of self proclaimed experts with 3 or 4 dead pixels. But you can't see them so there's no fuss over them. The owners likely don't even know they are (or rather aren't) there

 

[farmboy]

Yep, you sure are.

Now on a more serious note. I think it is outrageous to even accept ONE dead pixel. Any dot on the screen that is different from the rest stands out and will ruin your day every time you look at it. It reminds you that you paid good money for a defective product. I don't care what their "acceptable dead pixel count" policy is. It's not my policy. As a consumer, I think it is preposterous to make excuses and accept when a company tells you they cannot do better and you should just live with it. Hell no. Look, I do not live under a rock, wear and tear is perfectly reasonable but when I remove that $2500 beast from its box, I demand a perfect ****ing product for the money I paid for it. END OF STORY! If you can't deliver then you have no business calling yourself a premium brand.

Ridiculous. You are obviously completely unaware that the manufacturers of EVERY product have a range of acceptable products that is less than 100% perfect...in other words, defects exist in every product. In fact, since a few people have mentioned cars in analogy, a slightly more than cursory examination of new cars reveals multiple defects in even the most highly rated cars (see Consumer Reports and J.D. Power).

 

[WiscoNicky]

Apple seems to do the same thing, regardless of what their policy says. Has anyone heard of Apple refusing to replace a machine for bad pixels?

The Genius refused to replace my MBP screen with 2 stuck pixels and a couple bright spots. Perhaps I should have tried the genius next to him. Unacceptable.

If I were a graphic designer or something I wouldn't have taken no for an answer.

 

[bretm]

Yep, you sure are.

Now on a more serious note. I think it is outrageous to even accept ONE dead pixel. Any dot on the screen that is different from the rest stands out and will ruin your day every time you look at it. It reminds you that you paid good money for a defective product. I don't care what their "acceptable dead pixel count" policy is. It's not my policy. As a consumer, I think it is preposterous to make excuses and accept when a company tells you they cannot do better and you should just live with it. Hell no. Look, I do not live under a rock, wear and tear is perfectly reasonable but when I remove that $2500 beast from its box, I demand a perfect ****ing product for the money I paid for it. END OF STORY! If you can't deliver then you have no business calling yourself a premium brand.

Agreed. And for that matter they should take it back if you get it home and decide it doesn't look good with the paint color on the wall. They should take it back if you change your mind.they should take it back if you decide it's not a very good screen (which would include dead pixels). They should stand behind their product. "Try it, you don't like it, bring it back." it's a policy that's worked for companies forever because it relieves the stress and burden of dropping a load of cash. They know only a certain % will bring stuff back and that's worked into the cost. Things like Apples restocking fees create just the opposite mentality.

 

[Squere]

As a former Mac Genius and AppleCare support engineer, I'm very familiar with this policy. Apple pays a premium to ensure they they get the best displays being produced by their suppliers. However there is still no cost effective way to produce perfect LCDs every time. As far as I know these quality thresholds are actually enforced by the LCD manufactures. If the display falls outside of the acceptable range then the display can be returned to the manufacturer at little or no cost to Apple.

The displays being produced fall within priced tiers of acceptable pixel anomalies. For example, Apple may be paying a manufacturer for displays at a certain size guaranteed to have 8 or less pixel anomalies, while Dell could be paying the same manufacturer much less for displays that allow for even more. In the end it means Apple displays will cost more and will generally be of higher quality and have fewer pixel related issues, but they can't guarantee that all LCDs will be free of problems. Of course they would love to provide perfect displays every time, but I was told the cost of doing so would force the computers to be up to 3 times more expensive. Unfortunately it's just a current limitation in the process of producing the panels.

Of course, like others have stated these are mere guidelines and there is always room for some flexibility. Generally every complaint would be considered on a case by case basis. The position of the pixels on the screen, their color and their proximity to each other are all factors. However, when Apple replaces a display or machine that falls within the acceptable range, they eat the costs. And although rare, I had personally overseen cases where the replacement machine had more pixel anomalies than the original. This results in not only an unnecessary cost to Apple, but in a customer who is even more unhappy than before—a real no win situation.

Even Apple employees aren't immune as I've had the problem myself. I wasn't exactly thrilled about it either but I at least tried to see the issue from their perspective. In Apple's eyes these machines are not defective or damaged. They have passed all the QA tests are well within what is considered normal. I don't really think they're trying to fool anyone.
Besides if one wants a prefect display, they just have to be willing to pay for it. Apple will allow anyone to pay for a replacement display as many times as they want until they're happy with it. It's not worth it to me, but there have been some who paid more than once to do just that.

And yes, courtesy, patience and kindness towards the support staff will go a long way. Most of the employees genuinely enjoy being able to help a customer and they are much more likely to fight on your behalf if you're nice to them. Belligerent people with bad tempers will more often than not encourage them to follow the guidelines verbatim.

 

[bretm]

Ridiculous. You are obviously completely unaware that the manufacturers of EVERY product have a range of acceptable products that is less than 100% perfect...in other words, defects exist in every product. In fact, since a few people have mentioned cars in analogy, a slightly more than cursory examination of new cars reveals multiple defects in even the most highly rated cars (see Consumer Reports and J.D. Power).

Ever heard of lemon laws? I forget the exact details but basically you've got 3 days to take a car back for no reason whatsoever. That should cover cosmetics. And car companies get three tries to fix a defect back to new quality before they are forced by law to refund or give a new car.

 

[poetassium]

mine the BS

So as already exemplified all through out these comments nothing is perfect. Hell I am an average user, do lots of surfing and photo editing with Aperture. I was editing my own wedding photos and found one dead pixel. I called apple they said take it in. So I scanned my screen and came up with 21 dead and stuck pixels. Now this is beyond what apple says is cool. I did not notice any of it till that one showed up right in the middle of the screen.

I want to make a reference to those saying that one is too many! do you examine your sandwich from mcdonalds to make sure there are 3 pickles and 1.5 oz of sauces .25 lbs of meat and that the bun has no holes in it before you eat? Some things you just have to let go and it is because of you "driving the prices up" do to your frivolous returns that I have to pay 2500 dollars for an iMac. I bet your are the cause of my rising health insurance too! Oh my kid just sneezed better take him to the Dr. Yea I am mean and bossy so what get used to it or kiss my you know what!

So my real question is with 21 stuck or dead pixels Apple with just replace my computer? I have a 24 inch and now the have 21 or 27 I do not what to go down in size... do you really think the will give me a 27 inch?

 

[Squere]

So my real question is with 21 stuck or dead pixels Apple with just replace my computer? I have a 24 inch and now the have 21 or 27 I do not what to go down in size... do you really think the will give me a 27 inch?

First of all, if the computer is out of warranty and or not covered under AppleCare it may be too late to report the pixels now, but it never hurts to try. Otherwise, at Apple's discretion they will either replace the defective part or the entire machine. If they do replace the entire computer, the new one has to match or exceed all specs of the current machine if possible.

 

[bretm]

And zero on an iphone is their policy. Because at that resolution pixels are visible.

But unless you have several clustered together, a dead pixel on a 22 inch or higher display is simply not visible. I'm in a 22 inch right now and at the lowest resolution that's over 300k pixels. And we are talking a res way way below what anyone is likely to use. For folks on something like a 27 inch you are starting at 1 million pixels

Point of fact, there's probably quite a number of displays out there in the hands of self proclaimed experts with 3 or 4 dead pixels. But you can't see them so there's no fuss over them. The owners likely don't even know they are (or rather aren't) there

Your screen has the same number of pixels no matter what resolution you're viewing it at. The ONLY resolution that means anything here is the native resolution of the display. And even my 5 year old 20" has over 2 million pixels. I sure hope the new 27" is pushing 4 million or at least over 3 million.

Try this test. Make a psd the size of your screen. Set the view to 100%. Make it white. Draw one single black dot (pixel). That's what a dead pixel looks like. It's annoying as all get out. Or make a white dot on a black bgrnd. Even more annoying.

 

[applefan69]

Your an idiot =/. Another crazy apple fanboy.. I think the dead pixel policy is pretty ridiculous.. Now dead pixels isnt always an issue but it depends where it is.. I think Apple could do much better.. Some computer stores that I know of give you a replacement if theres more then 4 dead pixels..

So I ask, WHY do you think even those stores have a set number of dead pixels before being considered an issue? Obviously for business reasons, I know I did not need to tell you that.

Obviously Apple has less money in their budget dedicated to product replacements, hence they set a lower percent of units that fall in their "issue" guideline.

Maybe Apple is putting more money into R&D? Product Design? Marketting? Either way it doesnt matter, Apple has their budget figured out how they want it, and believe is most beneficial. Some consumers agree, others dont. Vote with your wallet!

Frankly none of my Apple products (covering some form of any of apples major products in the last 10 years) have given me a dead pixel. Im sorry if you haven't been so lucky.
I say, non-isssue

But what do i know? Im an apple fanboy...

 

[poetassium]

First of all, if the computer is out of warranty and or not covered under AppleCare it may be too late to report the pixels now, but it never hurts to try. Otherwise, at Apple's discretion they will either replace the defective part or the entire machine. If they do replace the entire computer, the new one has to match or exceed all specs of the current machine if possible.

Yea I have apple care. I have had the HD temps looked at have the fan replaced and adjusted. I had to take it back in the Temps would go out of site 180+ due to a bad install of flash I had to do and archive and install. So I prefer new machine obviously. But is there away to guarantee that? A new screen cost 900 bucks and it would take about a week to have it fixed. I just want to walk out with a new machine.

 

[farmboy]

Ever heard of lemon laws? I forget the exact details but basically you've got 3 days to take a car back for no reason whatsoever. That should cover cosmetics. And car companies get three tries to fix a defect back to new quality before they are forced by law to refund or give a new car.

Of course I'm aware of the laws, and they vary from state to state. Doesn't apply to my comment, which was ridiculing the idea that some insist on absolute perfection, yet you can be quite certain that their allegedly perfect products are not perfect at all.

 

[KiraDouji]

Yea I have apple care. I have had the HD temps looked at have the fan replaced and adjusted. I had to take it back in the Temps would go out of site 180+ due to a bad install of flash I had to do and archive and install. So I prefer new machine obviously. But is there away to guarantee that? A new screen cost 900 bucks and it would take about a week to have it fixed. I just want to walk out with a new machine.

You want a new machine because a fan (mechanical part prone to break down) needed to be replaced and you had a software issue with something Apple doesn't even make.

...

You seriously need to understand that the technicians will probably want to laugh in your face and/or punch it based on how this is presented to them.

I sincerely doubt there is any way to guarantee a full replacement, but I can tell you the more set you are, considering the above, the more likely they'll balk and dig their feet in against you.

 

[Squere]

Yea I have apple care. I have had the HD temps looked at have the fan replaced and adjusted. I had to take it back in the Temps would go out of site 180+ due to a bad install of flash I had to do and archive and install. So I prefer new machine obviously. But is there away to guarantee that? A new screen cost 900 bucks and it would take about a week to have it fixed. I just want to walk out with a new machine.

In this case I doubt they would be able to offer a replacement. There is a lot of red tape involved on the technician's end where replacements are involved, which typically require some significant justification. Typically multiple documented hardware issues or a repair that is taking an extreme amount of time to complete due to a backordered part. Unfortunately the erase and install would be considered a software issue and would not factor into the equation at all.
Also, even if a replacement were justified it's quite possible that due to your specific configuration or some inventory tracking restriction, they would still have to order the new machine which could take much longer than a repair anyway.
They are not required to replace the machine unless it can't be repaired for some reason so no there is no way to guarantee it. if you have a history with this store, my best suggestion would be to ask them what your options would be if you were to have another problem following this one. If they agreed to look into a replacement in the event another repair was needed, ask them to make a note of it for you in your case history and then make sure they give you the case number so that you can reference later if need be.

 

[ArcaneDevice]

"Zero bright pixels, guaranteed

Under Dell's Premium Panel Guarantee, you will receive a panel exchange should even one bright defective pixel appear on the screen during your Limited Hardware Warranty period."

If Dell can do it on their largest panels then Apple has zero excuse for not guaranteeing the same level of quality on their highest priced products for the price tag they charge.

No excuses at all are valid if a competitor can offer a better level of service. It's just that simple and this is just poor Apple service.

 

[3runjosh]

OMG this is truly dekcuf up. I was huge apple supporter until now I am seriously shocked. I thought with the huge premium we pay it means we get better service... I was planning to buy an iMac in the near future. If I go ahead with it I will make sure I test it out before leaving the apple store. If I find a dead pixel even 1 no matter where I will ask for my money back before leaving that store and go off with a PC lol (never thought i'd say that) I never thought I would use a pC ever again. sure i love os x to bits but i can live with windows 7 and the cheaper price is a bonus. If apple gonna treat their customers badly for the amount we pay I say we treat apple badly and make them test things before walking out of the store

 

[JGowan]

I have 2 Macbook Pros, one 24-inch LED and one 27-inch LED and not one dead pixel in the bunch... I suppose I've been lucky.

 

[Cerebral]

I am well aware of this policy as it was played like a broken record in my ear every time I called Apple when i bought my first macbook pro earlier this year. I had a stuck pixel, I noticed it about 2 days after I bought it but Apple refused to replace the panel or let me return it even though I was not satisifed.

Sure enough I rang many times hoping to resolve the issue, with the same "its within specifications" response. Well that was unacceptable, Apple can stick their "specifications" in a particularly unpleasant place.

Now don't get me wrong I am always friendly with support staff because it usually results in better service and results. I live in Australia and so i ended up quotating statutory warranty laws and what not as a last resort. I hate to be the customer to do that, but its the law. The Apple Website had also stated that my Mac would be of high quality and defect free (from which the site has now been changed and no longer states anything of the like i think). I consider a stuck pixel as a defect and i believe many others would also.

My final call lasted almost 2 hours and I was juggled between 3 or 4 different people. Eventually I was just shafted. It was now just past the 2 week return period. I then went to my local MAC1 store (an official Premium reseller) and they sent it off to get repaired. They were suprised that it had it a stuck pixel in the first place, they also said if i had brought it to them within the 14 day return period they would have replaced it on the spot. I was amazed that an authorised service provider/reseller provided better support with less hassel than Apple themselves. I know where I'm going to buy my next Apple product.

 

[*LTD*]

Some of you need to just chill.

Apple is usually very quick to appease customers. Units are replaced, often with no questions asked.

There's a reason they're #1 in customer service year after year.

There is no point to this piece of "news" about an internal guideline on replacements. Frankly it's none of my business as long as they make an effort to have the customer walk out satisfied.

As far as Apple's QC goes, again, their customer satisfaction ratings for most (if not all) their products score highest across the board year after year. If your own personal experience was different, to be honest that's just tough titty. But at least you get your chance to vent on these boards, for whatever good it'll do you.

 

[aloshka]

I don't get it

I don't get it. Apple finally gets higher revenue, does better, and they start going cheap? They start reversing what has made them popular and trusted? This sounds like dell many years ago. Except dell realized it and tried to reverse it with their zero dead pixel guarantee. For that reason I started buying dell displays. I guess most fanboys won't care, because it has an apple logo on it, and they are the ones that are feeding the money to apple. Same reason a lot of people hate glossy, but apple REFUSES to matte monitors anymore.

 

[poetassium]

In this case I doubt they would be able to offer a replacement. There is a lot of red tape involved on the technician's end where replacements are involved, which typically require some significant justification. Typically multiple documented hardware issues or a repair that is taking an extreme amount of time to complete due to a backordered part. Unfortunately the erase and install would be considered a software issue and would not factor into the equation at all.
Also, even if a replacement were justified it's quite possible that due to your specific configuration or some inventory tracking restriction, they would still have to order the new machine which could take much longer than a repair anyway.
They are not required to replace the machine unless it can't be repaired for some reason so no there is no way to guarantee it. if you have a history with this store, my best suggestion would be to ask them what your options would be if you were to have another problem following this one. If they agreed to look into a replacement in the event another repair was needed, ask them to make a note of it for you in your case history and then make sure they give you the case number so that you can reference later if need be.

On my last visit they could not duplicate the issue. The issue stemed from flash and not total load on the computer. the guy did some load test with grapher. this did not trigger the issue. earlier that day When I talked to the people at apple care I asked that it be put in the notes to ship the computer in for testing. The guy did not offer to look at it further. did not even offer to take it in back and let them look at it. I was with my wife and did not want to fuss. They did not ship it in either but after some non-scienctific testing. I determined how flash was installed had something to do with it. in the end I ended up doing and archive and install. It cured it since that is like the cure all. So I am kinda mad about that. My temps during Frontierville on FB would be 150+ after AnI 130. SO am I not happy that the tech did not look at this or offer to have them work on it in the back, or send it in. since I was just in there last month and in there a time before for temp issues. I will just harp on it to get a new machine.

 

[Squere]

OMG this is truly dekcuf up. I was huge apple supporter until now I am seriously shocked. I thought with the huge premium we pay it means we get better service... I was planning to buy an iMac in the near future. If I go ahead with it I will make sure I test it out before leaving the apple store. If I find a dead pixel even 1 no matter where I will ask for my money back before leaving that store and go off with a PC lol (never thought i'd say that) I never thought I would use a pC ever again. sure i love os x to bits but i can live with windows 7 and the cheaper price is a bonus. If apple gonna treat their customers badly for the amount we pay I say we treat apple badly and make them test things before walking out of the store

There's a reason Apple refers to these as pixel anomalies and not dead pixels or stuck pixels. Calling them "dead" gives the impression that the display has a defect, which according to the people making the LCDs it does not. Also buying a Windows machine would not guarantee that you wouldn't have the same issue occur. There are only a handful of actual LCD manufactures and all computer makers are subject to the same problem because they all get them from the same place. Some computer makers may offer to replace any display with pixel anomalies, but they can probably take the hit better as they are more than likely paying for poorer quality displays to begin with.
This really has nothing to do with service, which by the way I think Apple excels at. Replacing any and all computers with very few pixel issues would essentially be Apple admitting to a fairly high percentage of defects in their computers for something that they essentially have no control over. Besides, pixel anomalies can occur at any time. They can show up suddenly in a display that is a year old or they can just as easily disappear from one that purchased last week. You can even "remove" stuck pixels in some cases by gently massaging the LCD. (Though I wouldn't recommend this if you've not done it before.) With the amount of pixels that are packed into these LCDs it's a miracle we don't notice more anomalies than we do. If it's that big of a problem you could always use a CRT display instead. I know some graphic designers who still use them for reference while they work.

 

[Michaelgtrusa]

WTF. No it isn't. Apple charges a huge premium only to have such a piss poor quality standards. Even one is unacceptable.

Agreed.

Is that why the $1200 13" model has a core 2 duo model? That's outrageous

The last 24 inch imacs cost more than two grand and only had a core2duo, 2 gigs of ram and a 320 gig hd!

 

[SeattleMoose]

I Wonder If "Leeway" Means.....

the customer is a hot babe and the genius/nerd thinks he might have a chance!!!???

 

[Squere]

On my last visit they could not duplicate the issue. The issue stemed from flash and not total load on the computer. the guy did some load test with grapher. this did not trigger the issue. earlier that day When I talked to the people at apple care I asked that it be put in the notes to ship the computer in for testing. The guy did not offer to look at it further. did not even offer to take it in back and let them look at it. I was with my wife and did not want to fuss. They did not ship it in either but after some non-scienctific testing. I determined how flash was installed had something to do with it. in the end I ended up doing and archive and install. It cured it since that is like the cure all. So I am kinda mad about that. My temps during Frontierville on FB would be 150+ after AnI 130. SO am I not happy that the tech did not look at this or offer to have them work on it in the back, or send it in. since I was just in there last month and in there a time before for temp issues. I will just harp on it to get a new machine.

I wouldn't recommend you "harp" on them as it may encourage them not to be as helpful. Unfortunately the version of Flash that adobe provides for OS X has never been the most efficient software and many Flash apps, especially somewhat poorly written ones will push your Mac's processor to the brink. I know my machine's fans sometimes kick into high gear with internal temps well over 100 if I'm just surfing the web and too many of my open pages have Flash ads running. The heat sensors in your mac are there to tell the computer how strong the fans need to be to keep things cool. If the computer gets to a point where overheating could cause damage internally, it should automatically shut itself off. In some cases it may also just freeze completely, though that may or may not be heat related. With grapher they were probably trying to push your processor to see if it will overheat under processor intensive activity and exhibit any of those symptoms such as shutting down unexpectedly. If the issue is that the computer is getting hot and the fans are coming on, but there are not symptoms of overheating it could be perfectly normal.
In cases where the issues were very intermittent and not easily recreated we would sometimes check the machines in overnight and run a number of very processor intensive applications simultaneously from a vanilla installation of OSX on an external drive. If it was still running the apps in the morning we knew the hardware was sound. In cases like that, where a problem comes and goes, an archive and install is sometimes the most efficient solution.