You're trying again to derail the conversation, trying to steer it away from Apple's failing so that you don't have to open your eyes to the reality that the 4th quarter was crap for them.
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Apple's iPhone Continues to Outpace Smartphone Industry Growth
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You're trying again to derail the conversation, trying to steer it away from Apple's failing so that you don't have to open your eyes to the reality that the 4th quarter was crap for them.
Erm,
I don't know what you are smoking but I want some of it too!
In Q4 Apple sold 6.9M handsets. Netting them 1.7 - 2 Billion dollars in profit.
In the same period, Nokia sold what? 40 million devices? And despite that, it made only 1.2bn profit.
RIM earned 0.5bn in the same Q.
If Apple's Q4 was crap, what was Nokia's?
C.
Your citing numbers from Q3 and talking profits again. We're not talking Apple financial quarters here, we're talking year quarters. Q409 = Apple's Q110.
At least try to stay within the bounds of the current thread that talks about the quarter that just ended.
Seriously, there's no discussing with you.
You are right. If I select the right quarter, Apples sales were 8M not 6.9.
Silly me!
From the know profit-per-handset figures this takes Apples handset profits only to over 2 billion! I bet Apple were kicking themselves for having such a disappointing quarter.
Thanks for pointing out the mistake!
BTW. Found this awesome graph!
C.
Exactly. Apple sold the most iPhones ever and lost market share. Not you're starting to catch on. The holidays were rough on the iPhone. All their competitors did much better in growing their smartphone sales. The market just grew more than Apple could manage.
I'm glad we finally agree.
Have you ever heard the phrase "crying all the way to the bank"?
I have already agreed that Apple will inevitably lose market share in the future. The graph above explains why. It won't be long before disposable phones fit the smartphone definition.
As Nokia and others put web into low-end profitless handsets, there's absolutely no way that Apple can keep pace with that.
But why would they want to? What benefit is there in chasing such a pointless goal?
But as far as I can tell, Apple are already the most profitable handset maker on the planet. So why should they want to play the silly market-share game?
That really *is* willy waving.
C.
But Apple do play the market share game - with all their products, except the PC range. SJ always gets up and states marketshare for iPhone, iTunes etc.
As the number of Android phones increase, together with BB and Apple only having one phone, I don't think Apple could possibly beat the high volume sales of other smartphone platforms for SJ to continue with iPhone marketshare speeches.
Apple will have to settle for lower iPhone marketshare, bring out more iPhone models and / or diversify more mobile platforms i.e., iPad to keep developers developing for a platform with a continued perceived shrinking marketshare.
Marketshare IS important for consumer products, its an indication of popularity... which is important for 3rd party development.
Marketshare is a poor approximation of success. Market activity is a much more accurate indicator.
For instance in terms of attracting 3rd party applications, you need to evaluate the size of the market. And that means you have to consider how many people actually go out and buy apps. Nokia sold 20M smartphones. How many of these 20M users actually buy apps?
When looking at Apple there are two unusual factors.
iPod Touch customers, increase the market size for apps by a factor of two or so. iPod Touch does not appear in the Smartphone market share figures, but please do not disregard it. Software developers see the iPhone platform as twice as large as these smartphone figures suggest.
And there is a second factor. Apple customers actually go out and buy apps. Whereas Nokia customers don't go to the Nokia Ovi store. Android, Pre and Blackberry application sales have all been much weaker than Apple.
Example: Games which have done $250,000 on iPhone have sold 500 units on Android.
So looking at the market from the point-of-view of a third party developer,
you should take into account these units sales and then MULTIPLY the figures by these attach-rate factors. That will give you a much more accurate view of the various markets.
Once you do that, you realise that 1 x iPod touch is a bigger market than 10 x 5880 "music-phone" sales.
Marketshare is only important if vendors can translate it into revenue generating activity. And in the mobile space, Apple seems unique in its ability to do that.
C.
You, on the other hand, are still not catching on. Giving away free phones may boost market share numbers, but they don't actually increase sales in a way that sales matter (profit).
But hey, if RIM and Google want to see their market share numbers grow via 2-for-1 giveaways, more power to them.
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Where are these worldwide 2 for one offers?
Once the networks buy phones, it's got bugger all to do with the manufacturer what they do with them. Do you really think these offers are done at the expense of the manufacturer? Networks hope to recoup the costs via a 2nd phoneline.
Could you show me some hard data that the bogof offers seriously skew worldwide marketshare, especially when these offers are anything but worldwide?
LagunaSol said:
Where are these worldwide 2 for one offers?
Once the networks buy phones, it's got bugger all to do with the manufacturer what they do with them. Do you really think these offers are done at the expense of the manufacturer? Networks hope to recoup the costs via a 2nd phoneline.
Could you show me some hard data that the bogof offers seriously skew worldwide marketshare, especially when these offers are anything but worldwide?
I don't watch non-US phone deals.
As I mentioned in my earlier post, I realize it's the carriers and not the manufacturers that offer these "Free After Rebate" or "Buy 1 Get 1 Free" deals. Nevertheless, these deals impact market share numbers.
And while the carriers are the ones offering these deals, I am reasonably sure that Apple would not tolerate AT&T running a similar deal on the iPhone because it dilutes the perceived value of the brand.
I have no idea how seriously they skew the numbers, but any rational thinker would deduce that they are skewed to some extent.
Ultimately all we can do is sit back and watch to see if KnightWRX's hypothesis is correct and the iPhone will continue to spiral downward to irrelevance.
So you're quite happy commenting on the shady goings on at RIM and Google (who incidentally have only one Google branded handset, the nexus one which isn't available on a BOGOF deal as far as I know*) without researching what happens with these companies worldwide?
I assure you, because some networks in the U.S like to give phones away for free, that it isn't the status quo worldwide.
*You may want to complain about HTC instead as I see the Droid Eris has had a BOGOF recently.
Indeed, inflating Android market share at the expense of iPhone market share.
And I'm not complaining about anyone. It's their business how they sell (or give away) their products. My argument is simply that Apple is in a stronger position than some on this thread realize or can bring themselves to admit.
This isn't specific to any manufacturers as it's not them giving the phones away, all the networks do stuff to get customers. Orange gave away iPod touches to entice customers to the network.
Did it devalue the iPod touch? No.
Did it devalue Apple? No.
Was it unfair? No.
Good, that means we don't have to even give any credibility to your critique then. 1 deal on 1 network means nothing on a global scale and iPhone market share numbers we are discussing are worldwide numbers.
That's not my hypothesis. I am simply stating that the iPhone is one amongst many, and not some "dominating force that everyone aspires too", unless of course everyone aspires to being 3rd, with market share that isn't ever growing.
Basically, I'm correcting all the kool-aid drinkers that think the iPhone is some kind of market leader.
The funny part is Lagunasol is quick to point out sales of Blackberries, but ignores that O2 in the UK gives away the iPhone on certain plans, even the 3GS.
Talk about double standards.
I don't think it skews the numbers at all. We're talking about a free market here where networks are able to offer whatever deal they want. If a BOGOF offer on one brand of phone makes that deal more attractive than a single iPhone, then that should be fairly represented in market share statistics because it is a perfectly valid way to market and sell a product.
Apple are in a strong position, but ONLY at the high end, and that ONLY accounts for a very tiny portion of the overall mobile phone market. If that's the only market they want to operate in, that's entirely their choice, but they will never have anything other than fairly insignificant overall market share as a result. If they want to substantially increase their market share they would need to make cheaper devices, which I doubt they would do given as has been said, this would dilute their brand.
I can't understand the point in this never ending analysing of Apple's smartphone market share. They make a desirable product that makes them gobs of money, big deal, who cares? So do a raft of other companies on the planet.
That's a ridiculous claim. The iPod Mini wants a word with you. The fact is this is exactly what they did with the iPod and that's how they basically took a very big portion of the market with very little negative effect (is there even any ?).
I suppose that is true. If you're looking to become the market leader in mobile phones, I think you need to have a product pitched at the Indian and Chinese markets that fits the average Joe's budget, and for the European market, to have a device that is FREE on reasonably priced contracts, or around £100 on PAYG.
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That's because the networks make their money back on the handsets through the line rental and call/data costs. Why is it the handset price decreases with higher price plans eh?
I can't believe that people think RIM (or htc) make no money on the handsets the networks give away, bogof or not.
OllyW said:
That's because the networks make their money back on the handsets through the line rental and call/data costs. Why is it the handset price decreases with higher price plans eh?
I can't believe that people think RIM (or htc) make no money on the handsets the networks give away, bogof or not.
Minus the fact that it is the carriers offering the BOGO. Not RIM, HTC ect. They are banking big bucks off the BOGO.
Also the BOGO is limited to only a handful of carriers.
I think Apple market share falling points to another fact and that is iPhone is near its saturation point for market share. Until it is opened up to more carriers it is not going to gain any more market share. It will grow about the same rate as the smart phone market.
Unfortunately for your argument there are many types of leaders.
As for the Giveaways. NOT WORTH IT. You spend more overall on the contract, Than all up front with Prepay on Net* plans.
*$10 for 2000txts, $1 for 10mb, Free stuff when you top-up etc.
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We're not debating the worth of the giveaways. We're questioning those that suspect that the handset manufacturers are behind the bogof's.
Even if Verizon or whatever network "give away" a handset, you can bet that HTC or RIM have received payment for the handset.
To argue that it's the manufacturers "artificially inflating marketshare" is just plain wrong.
MorphingDragon said:
We're not debating the worth of the giveaways. We're questioning those that suspect that the handset manufacturers are behind the bogof's.
Even if Verizon or whatever network "give away" a handset, you can bet that HTC or RIM have received payment for the handset.
To argue that it's the manufacturers "artificially inflating marketshare" is just plain wrong.
Even if they are, since Apple is also guilty of it with free iPhones in the UK, then the point is moot.