Apple's Mac Pro Refresh: What We Know So Far

[Realityck]

The Mac Pro 2009-2012 was "rack hostile" with the handles getting in the way of rotating and inserting into a standard width rack. This 2019 "rack option" is mostly just an option of a better optimized container for the horizontal position. Other than that it isn't trying to be a different product. There is a use-case where folks put Mac Pros into equipment bays , utility carts , etc. The racking here is just to enable that. (same target group that wants several cards , but mounted horizontal. Mostly this is not super hard core data center temple folks. More ruggedized Macs than trying to fit in next to the Mainframe. Similar for the sky high priced wheels for the tower version. Folks rolling it from place to place. )

Similarly, the Mac Pro 2009-2012 had a CPU tray not so much because Apple worships at the alter of ultra-modularity , but so that they could do a single socket and dual socket versions with one shared logic board and chassis. Apple didn't

You should be aware the design started with the 2005 Power PC G5, the 2006 Intel Mac Pro had the same form along with its 2009, and 2010 Mac Pros. It really was a boat anchor of sorts. Lots of wasted space.

Wiki had a couple of good images.

The 2005 model had those Delphi water radiators along with way too many fans, the 2006 model was a big improvement going back to intel.

Here's the back side of the two. If someone wanted to pick them up and move then around those handles were not comfortable to grasp for carrying around. They did show that Apple tried to replicate more of a industrial workstation design, but the all metal heaviness was a weird choice on their part.

The trashcan design I thought these were neat, and hopped they would continue with workstation innovation, but Apple walked away, lost I guess until the 2019 model announcement back to the larger metal chassis again, but the handles were more comfortable. The price increases were a bit bizarre with the display costing as much as the base Mac Pro.

 

[deconstruct60]

Since the GPU (and CPU) cores in the ARM architecture appear to be infinitely scalable alongside shared memory, there's a very real possibility that the GPU in the new Mac Pro will obliterate anything else available in the GPU space currently and in the future.

Err, no. There is nothing that is "infinitely scalable". Amdahl's law will kick in at some point where some subcomponent starts to become a choke point. The network , distance between components , etc.

AMD came out with a multiple chiplet GPU ( MI200 ) and it presents at two logical GPUs. Apple doesn't necessarily have some super magic pixie dust. Extremely high video framerate output isn't necessarily the same as just cranking up the TFLOPS on 'embarrassingly parallel' workloads.

Integrated / Unified Memory graphics doesn't scale because at some point in the scale up have to go past having a single memory pool. Apple could be king of the iGPUs for a long while, but that isn't scaling. That is pragmatically actually putting a cap on scaling.

 

[james yates]

Since 2020, Apple has been working to eliminate Intel chips by transitioning the entire Mac lineup to Apple silicon chips, and 2022 is expected to be the year when the transition is completed. One of the major Mac lines still using Intel chips is the Mac Pro, but a refreshed model is in the works for 2022.

This guide covers everything that we know about Apple's plans for the updated Mac Pro.

Design

Apple is rumored to be working on two updates for the Mac Pro. The first machine is a direct successor to the 2019 Mac Pro with its modern, lattice design and modular casing, while the second is a new addition to the lineup that's smaller in size.

The larger Mac Pro is expected to continue to use the same stainless steel frame and aluminum housing with dual-sided logic board and easy access to the interior for adding and removing components. There's been no word on whether the thermal architecture will change, and it will still feature the same three-dimensional interlocking hemispheres for heat dissipation purposes.

As for the smaller Mac Pro, it's been described as looking similar to the existing Mac Pro, but with a more compact enclosure that's half the size. It will have a mostly aluminum exterior, and Bloomberg's Mark Gurman has said that it could "invoke nostalgia" for the Power Mac G4 Cube.

Hit-and-miss leaker Jon Prosser has claimed that Apple's smaller Mac Pro could look like "three to four Mac minis stacked on top of one another" with a "compute unit on the bottom" and a "big heat sink on top."

Apple Silicon Chips

According to Gurman, the larger Mac Pro will continue to be equipped with Intel chips while the smaller model will adopt Apple silicon.

Apple is developing some super high powered Apple silicon chips for the Mac Pro, but the earliest versions may not be able to compete with Xeon processors for heavy duty workloads, and there may also be concerns about software compatibility. For that reason, we could see an Intel Mac Pro and an Apple silicon Mac Pro released side by side to meet all of the needs of professional users.

The half-sized Mac Pro is expected to come with the "equivalent of either two or four M1 Max chips," which will make it much more powerful than the 2021 MacBook Pro models that include the M1 Max chips. The first Apple silicon chip is expected to feature 20 CPU cores and 64 graphics cores, while the second more powerful chip could feature 40 CPU cores and 128 graphics cores.

Back in November, The Information said that Apple would adopt a version of the M1 Max chip that has at least two dies to support a higher number of cores than are available with the standard M1 Max in the MacBook Pro, and that future versions would have up to four dies.

For the Intel-based Mac Pro, Apple could use the Intel Lake SP chips, which are Intel's third-generation Xeon Scalable processors. Signs of these chips were spotted in an Xcode 13 beta prior to the launch of macOS Monterey.

Release Date

The Mac Pro is expected at some point in 2022, and it could be introduced as early as June, perhaps at the Worldwide Developers Conference. Apple could preview the machine at the event and then release it later this fall, giving developers some time to prepare pro software for the more powerful Apple silicon chips.

Article Link: Apple's 2022 Mac Pro Refresh: What We Know So Far

How much are the wheels?

 

[deconstruct60]

I'm excited to get one! Hopefully they'll have a really great Mac Pro option in the $2,000-$4,000 range this time...

Probably not if it starts off with the "double Max" as a starting point. Just look at the M1 Pro and Max prices. To go from entry M1 Pro -> fully flushed out M1 Max is $700. So two M1 Max are probably higher than $1,400. (fancy Multiple chip module tech for two 400+ mm2 dies and 8 RAM packages isn't going to be cheap, so baking in that full Pro-Max even though entry model may not have all cores turned on.) Haven't bought any Apple priced RAM yet either and the floor of RAM would go from 32GB to 64GB (16->64GB priced at $800. Probably higher than that if start at zero.) . Still no SSD. Case , etc.

Need more CPU cores ... have to buy more RAM and GPU cores. Need more GPU cores ... need to buy more RAM and CPU cores ... need more RAM .... have to buy more CPU and GPU cores. That deep coupling integration will drive prices higher.

Perhaps creeps in just under $4K, but back to the "old" Mac Pro prices from 2009-2010 era? Probably not. Won't be surprising if this lands near where the iMac Pro was ; $4,999.

Decent chance Apple will have a Mini Pro with a M1 Pro/Max for that $2K-3.5K demographic. And ask the rest to stretch to a bit over $4K.

 

[Boil]

Probably not if it starts off with the "double Max" as a starting point. Just look at the M1 Pro and Max prices. To go from entry M1 Pro -> fully flushed out M1 Max is $700. So two M1 Max are probably higher than $1,400. (fancy Multiple chip module tech for two 400+ mm2 dies and 8 RAM packages isn't going to be cheap, so baking in that full Pro-Max even though entry model may not have all cores turned on.) Haven't bought any Apple priced RAM yet either and the floor of RAM would go from 32GB to 64GB (16->64GB priced at $800. Probably higher than that if start at zero.) . Still no SSD. Case , etc.

Need more CPU cores ... have to buy more RAM and GPU cores. Need more GPU cores ... need to buy more RAM and CPU cores ... need more RAM .... have to buy more CPU and GPU cores. That deep coupling integration will drive prices higher.

Perhaps creeps in just under $4K, but back to the "old" Mac Pro prices from 2009-2010 era? Probably not. Won't be surprising if this lands near where the iMac Pro was ; $4,999.

Decent chance Apple will have a Mini Pro with a M1 Pro/Max for that $2K-3.5K demographic. And ask the rest to stretch to a bit over $4K.

Don't forget the automatic jump to 32GB RAM when going from the M1 Pro to the M1 Max, which adds another $400; bump that to 64GB RAM, add another $400...

I put the M1 Max SoC (full die) & 64GB LPDDR5 RAM at about $2K, so double that for a dual M1 Max configuration, add another $1K for all the rest of the computer (chassis, PSU, SSD, etc.) and the ASi Mac Pro should start around $4K to $5K, depending on RAM & SSD capacities...?

 

[elmateo487]

What we know so far? NOTHING. Good grief. We've got wishes, hopes, rumor and speculation. That's it. We don't know anything.

What's next? You're going to present some random dude's concept render of an AR headset from Apple, and present it as "what Apple's AR headset could look like"? Oh, wait. You've already done that.

Welcome to a RUMOR site. Yikes

 

[Mr.PT]

I just want the price to drop for the Apple Mac Pro Wheels Kit. $699 is too steep just for rolling wheels.

View attachment 1964094

New ones will be self driving though😁

 

[Onelifenofear]

If they learnt anything from 2013
Needs
upgradable ram
UPGRADABLE GPU!!!!!
NVME
PCIE

If they learnt anything from 2019
Cheaper - start at 3k

 

[Mr.PT]

I'm excited to get one! Hopefully they'll have a really great Mac Pro option in the $2,000-$4,000 range this time...

$4,000-$5,000 more realistic.

 

[EntropyQ3]

An Apple silicon Mac Pro should use a dual M1 Max SoC configuration at the minimum...

The cost for a M1 Max SoC & 64GB of LPDDR5 RAM is roughly $2K; this is JUST the SoC & RAM, NOT the rest of the computer...!

When you make statements like this, please clarify that those prices are what you expect Apple to charge the customer.
It in no way, shape, or form relates to Apples costs, even as speculation. That number can be estimated with large error bars, but even at the outer end of those error bars, it is far, FAR lower.

 

[Boil]

If they learnt anything from 2013
Needs
upgradable ram
UPGRADABLE GPU!!!!!
NVME
PCIE

Welcome to the future of Apple with the SoC; if you want to upgrade your CPU/GPU/RAM, just buy a new computer...

End user NVMe M.2 slot(s) for common third-party PC component SSDs; it could be done, but will Appple do it...?

PCIe slots, probably a handful at the most in the ASi Mac Pro mini-tower, which will be expensive to the average joe; let the cry for a non-multiple SoC model with a less costly chassis start, Average Joe demands the xMac...! ;^p

If they learnt anything from 2019
Cheaper - start at 3k

Between the CNC-machined chassis, the 1.6kW PSU, the various bits of the cooling system(s), and the massive custom double-sided motherboard, I would expect those items themselves to account for nearly half of the entry-level $6K cost of the 2019 Intel Mac Pro...?

 

[Mr.PT]

I am assuming this smaller, new Mac Pro is essentially going to be a square version of the trashcan.

I just don’t see any point to modular if Apple is going with integrated memory/cpu/gpu.

Question is how modularity will play out on SoC architecture: “specialised” SoC[video/audio/3D ray tracing modules] Coupled (how?) with “regular” performance SoC? Don’t see 3rd Party hardware being supported. But surely there will be some sort of post acquisition customisable optimisation/ update, not components but rather “supplemental add on” chipset, no?

 

[Boil]

When you make statements like this, please clarify that those prices are what you expect Apple to charge the customer.
It in no way, shape, or form relates to Apples costs, even as speculation. That number can be estimated with large error bars, but even at the outer end of those error bars, it is far, FAR lower.

I mean, I'm not throwing around any BOM breakdowns or MOQ numbers or anything, so I would think it obvious I was talking from an end user cost point-of-view...?

But yeah, Apple has a heck of a markup, if they did not have such high profit margins we could return to the days of the $3K entry-level Mac Pro...! ;^p

 

[Onelifenofear]

I am assuming this smaller, new Mac Pro is essentially going to be a square version of the trashcan.

I just don’t see any point to modular if Apple is going with integrated memory/cpu/gpu.

So it is possible to have interchange M2 Units and if they had say 4 or 6 slots you could make this really powerful.

But ram is the issue. I have 768gb of Ram in my pro - I do massive data set 3d animations. Even 4-6 x 64gb isn’t going to cut it.

What’s important is it needs PCIE and NVME support

 

[Boil]

I am assuming this smaller, new Mac Pro is essentially going to be a square version of the trashcan.

More a modern rendition of the previous G4 and NeXT Cubes...

So it is possible to have interchange M2 Units and if they had say 4 or 6 slots you could make this really powerful.

SoC blades on a back plane would be more distributed computing rather than an all-one UMA dealio...?

But ram is the issue. I have 768gb of Ram in my pro - I do massive data set 3d animations. Even 4-6 x 64gb isn’t going to cut it.

Maybe not for the first Apple silicon Mac Pro, but I would think Apple would switch to LPDDR5X RAM when they can (M2 or M3...?) allowing 256GB single SoC, 512GB dual SoCs, & 1TB quad SoCs...

What’s important is it needs PCIE and NVME support

Only NVMe slots I would expect would be for the Apple proprietary ones, as for PCIe slots we can all hope for at least a few, and one could place a RAID card with multiple NVMe M.2 slots in one or more of those PCIe slots...

 

[AndiG]

What we know so far:
- super pricey
- NVidia cards won’t work, so forget about ML
- Proprietary and super pricey Apple flash drives used in favor of equally fast or even faster M2 SSDs
- doesn’t support open standards like OpenGL/Vulkan
- Outperformed by cheaper platforms in every day tasks

But, I have to admit
- super fast doing video stuff and running Apples own video software aka Final Cut

will it finally have PCIe 3.0/4.0/5.0???

 

[MajorFubar]

This has got to be the best free resource in the planet for Apple to source R&D ideas from. If they haven't got at least one trojan horse in here posing as a regular consumer while taking notes about what concepts seem to be well-received and what don't, then I'm an Irishman. Spoiler: I'm not an Irishman.

 

[Boil]

will it finally have PCIe 3.0/4.0/5.0???

I would expect PCIe 4.0 at the least, but would hope for PCIe 5.0...?

Without discrete GPUs, I would think RAID & networking cards would be the main use for PCIe slot bandwidth...?

 

[BigKahunaBurguer]

Can't Wait! I hope they make the announcement in June. Even if it is sold later. But I am very interested in the smaller Mac pro. That's the one!

 

[Onelifenofear]

What we know so far:
- super pricey
- NVidia cards won’t work, so forget about ML
- Proprietary and super pricey Apple flash drives used in favor of equally fast or even faster M2 SSDs
- don’t support open standards like OpenGL/Vulkan
- Outperformed by cheaper platforms in every day tasks

But, I have to admit
- super fast doing video stuff and running Apples own video software

will it finally have PCIe 3.0/4.0/5.0???

OpenGL is awful now. Vulcan better but Metal is far superior in every way.

Outperformed? Um M1 alone was killing the competition on price / perf let alone the max and M2s etc.

 

[Onelifenofear]

Can't Wait! I hope they make the announcement in June. Even if it is sold later. But I am very interested in the smaller Mac pro. That's the one!

Maybe just maybe they’ll call it a plain old “Mac” if only so they can use the song “return of the Mack” in the advert…

 

[grad]

Both the Cube and the Cylinder were great and innovative designs, let down by Apple's pricing, choice of hardware, and lack of support thereafter. Apple should have gone with a Mac Pro and Mac Pro Mini (or Mac Mini Pro) dual lineup, yet it kept forcing iMacs and laptops to people and kept claiming that the only use for desktop computers and workstations is Final Cut.

Anyway, neither of the two rumored 2022 Macs makes sense if there is no upgradeability and replaceability. And no, by that I do not mean internal 3.5" HDD storage; this hasn't aged well yet people didn't want to listen back in 2013 (let alone in 2019).

 

[michelb76]

Pricing: about double of what you would like it to be.

 

[theluggage]

But ram is the issue. I have 768gb of Ram in my pro - I do massive data set 3d animations. Even 4-6 x 64gb isn’t going to cut it.

What’s important is it needs PCIE and NVME support

That's why I'm inclined to believe this neglected sentence from the article:

According to Gurman, the larger Mac Pro will continue to be equipped with Intel chips while the smaller model will adopt Apple silicon.

My guess is that the Apple Silicon Mac Pro will be Apple's second run at the Trashcan concept - that doesn't mean another triangular-cored cylinder, but still a compact desktop processor that relies on external Thunderbolt expansion, primarily designed as an "appliance" FCPX/Logic Pro and other software that can be customised for its unusual architecture. The big difference this time is that they've still got an up-to-date (and relatively easy to update), full PCIe tower system on the books for the people for whom the Trashcan model doesn't work.

If you look at what makes the 2019 Mac Pro "special" it really comes down to:

1. the new (in 2019) Xeon-W processors which crammed a huge (for Intel) number of CPU cores, PCIe lanes and RAM capacity onto a big monolithic processor chip - previously that would have required multiple "Xeon Scalable" processors.
2. The "MPX" slots that made it neater to have multiple big, sweaty workstation-class PCIe GPU cards & handled the extra plumbing for supplying the power they needed and routing video to Thunderbolt controllers.
3. Afterburner cards, primarily for accelerating Apple-proprietary formats

...while Apple Silicon is swimming in exactly the opposite direction - everything distributed between multiple dies (however they are packaged), SoCs with integrated GPUs and unified RAM (with RAM somehow being shared between processor dies) and the rough equivalent of Afterburners already integrated into the SoCs. I'm not saying you can't make a "Pro" workstation from Apple Silicon using (effectively) multiple M1 Max dies - but trying to make a like-for-like replacement for the 2019 Mac Pro from Apple Silicon, that performed without software being optimised for Apple Silicon, would be a world of hurt.

Meanwhile, customers who invested 6-digits sums on Mac Pro setups in 2020 are going to expect several more years of support for those systems - which includes being able to add and replace hardware without facing a major workflow upheaval - and will have a long list of specialist software that needs to be updated before they can switch to Apple Silicon, let alone some sort of novel architecture that relies on optimised applications.

Frankly, if I were in the sort of business where $30k workstations were needed, had invested in a new Apple system in 2020 (possibly in the face of opposition from bean-counters pointing at $3k Dell systems), and in 2022 Apple suddenly said "Oh look! Aeroplane!" and replaced it with a radically different system with a laundry-list of new pros and cons, I'd be done with Apple (and we're talking "strike 3" here after they did the same thing in 2012 and 2017-19). Every time you force customers into a potentially expensive workflow change you give them another opportunity to switch to PC and make te bean-counters smile. I think that was one of the problems with the Trashcan - it was a radical change that Apple tried to force after the old, more conventional Mac Pro had been discontinued. If users had had a couple of years to adopt it, maybe it would have worked out better (...of course, there was also no CPU/GPU update path for it, but Apple Silicon should stop that from happening again).

 

[Boil]

For the ASi Mac Pro, Apple could offer mobo/SoC/RAM/SSD upgrades by swapping out the mobo and attached components, just have to keep a chassis with consistent internal dimensions, maybe a slide out tray...

Apple could also offer a chunky rack mount you could slot your old Mac Pro "Blades" into for render farm, distributed computing, whatnot...