I forgot. You can add people who use so-called “clever” names for Apple users to that list.
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Apple's Mac Shipments Down in Q3 2017 Amid Continuing PC Market Decline
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I forgot. You can add people who use so-called “clever” names for Apple users to that list.
fairuz wrote:
"I bought the 2015 rMBP instead of going for fewer ports and basically the same components for a greater price. And the only reason I bought it is my old laptop broke"
Same here.
When the 2016 models were introduced, I did a "side-by-side comparison" at BestBuy -- and then bought the 2015 as "the better design".
And I got it (a brand-new unit) for significantly less than what Apple was charging at the time for the identical MacBook ordered from them.
11 months later, no keyboard problems, no battery problems, everything works as it should.
I'm happy bein' nuthin' more than "an old guy" with an "old-design" MacBook Pro!
"I bought the 2015 rMBP instead of going for fewer ports and basically the same components for a greater price. And the only reason I bought it is my old laptop broke"
Same here.
When the 2016 models were introduced, I did a "side-by-side comparison" at BestBuy -- and then bought the 2015 as "the better design".
And I got it (a brand-new unit) for significantly less than what Apple was charging at the time for the identical MacBook ordered from them.
11 months later, no keyboard problems, no battery problems, everything works as it should.
I'm happy bein' nuthin' more than "an old guy" with an "old-design" MacBook Pro!
Great list!
It sounds like Apple should have kept the 2015 Macbook Pro and simply swapped in a fresh CPU and GPU. That would address most of the issues on your list.
But wait... then people would say "Apple doesn't innovate anymore!"
I imagine there's a dial in the Mac design office that goes between "stay the course" and "change all the things"
And lately it's been pegged on "change all the things"
It isn't that Apple doesn't innovate, its that its in places that a lot of traditional Apple customers don't care about. When a company calls it "courage" to remove a headphone jack that most users want, and lie about not being able to fit it in, then they have lost touch with customers. When SJ was setting the path, you could argue that they dictated to their customers, but that had someone dictating that resonated with the customer base. They don't have that person anymore, so the dictating has become dangerous. It leads to wonky innovation.
I think its that they lack proper vision. They are led by a guy who's vision is all about social issues and I don't think really even understands much of the technology that his company produces. His keynote talks always sound fake, and that they are all trying to look and act like SJ did... but that's not who he is. Faking is never a good thing. Look at Microsoft... Ballmer was Ballmer, and Nadella is Nadella. They are very different and have different visions. Tim is trying to phone in SJ's vision and not good at it the longer time goes on.
Yes, Chromebooks probably are outselling the custom PC market,
But you' and many many other really undersell the importance and size of the custom built market.
for example, AMD and intel have sold millions of their highest end CPU's alone. The R7 and i9 variants. These components are NOT available in prebuilt machines. We know that the "heart" of any computer is the CPU. And while it's not a pure 1:1, of CPU to computer due to some multi-socket machines (again none of those appear in these numbers either), it's absolutely clear that these are machines that are either upgraded or being built around those platforms that DO not get accounted for in these.
and these parts are flying off the shelves. intel's latest highest end i7 and i9 CPU's are getting hard to get. Heck, even the GPU market for replacable GPU's, are selling in the millions, and are in such hot demand right now that the pricing for them is completely skewed.
there are millions of machines out there, either upgraded bit by bit or custom built that are NOT taken into account here. I think what we're seeing is a shift back to custom built hardware from these prebuilts due to the soldering in and general commodization of prebuilt computers (they're really not all that configurable anymore, and often don't even have the beste / top of the line parts available for them). those who are looking for best bang for the dollar, are not buying prebuilts.
it's not just gaming either. Right if you're doing something with GPU Compute, you're generally better off going custom built than from one of the builders. The highest end workstation grade stuff isn't really available from many of the prebuilt makers. Especially if you're looking to build stuff with multi-gpu setups for CUDA / OpenCL. Workstation grade stuff for threadripper/i9, etc.
simply put, for the most part, if you really require a machine that works best for your workload, custom is the way to go, and more and more people are shifting in that direction. The prebuilt companies are really not offering computers these days that fit into these use cases. Yes, the prebuilts will always still serve the standard everyday consumer well. But it's these people who push their computers hard who replace and upgrade their hardware on a very regular short cycle. someone whose livlihood depends on the fasttest hardware possible isn't going to wait 2-3 years for an upgrade. They're going to buy a new part / computer when it's available. and that generally still requires custom.
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Can't speak to the i9 because for desktops I don't do Intel....
This guy has Ryzen 7:
https://www.bestbuy.com/site/hp-des...ve-hp-finish-in-black/5876605.p?skuId=5876605
So does this one:
https://www.costco.com/Lenovo-Ideac...n-7---8GB-AMD-Graphics.product.100340003.html
There are plenty of R7 systems from OEMs.....
I think you vastly overestimate the homebuilt market.
I think you underestimate it considerably.
what we really need is intel/AMD to really release their numbers. something either company hasn't been willing to do.
and FINALLLY nice to see some prebuilts with RyZEN. the prebuilt market has been very slow at getting them out, in addition. it seems for every 50 prebuilts with intel, there's 1 option with RyZEN, hopefuly that'll change
Perhaps Mac shipments might go up if Tim Cook actually cared about the Mac and got them to produce an updated Macmini, Mac Pro or Mac pro Mini, I and several people i know are clinging on to their old stuff as long as possible because not everyone likes the iMac as a pro machine, and even less having a box full of dongles to carry around.
I got sick of waiting for a new Monitor from Apple and when they introduceed that LG thing I immediately ordered a 27" Eizo G2730 Self calibrating Monitor and it is totally awsome. That is £1300 quid not in Apples bank account...
It runs fine from my 2013 Macbook Pro but i would rather power it from a desktop Mac.
Cook has slowly stripped all the life and character out of the Mac that SJ put into it, no startup chime, no pulsing sleep indicator, stupid revamped extra smiley finder icon drawn by a five year old, no glowing logo, not totally world shattering i know but it made the Mac "different" to all the boring stuff.
Cook has no personality or charisma and his whole life at Apple appears to be focussed on gadgets, Apple will be Sony before long and we know where they are headed. Accountants and bean pushers do not create exciting products.
I used to wait excitedly for the Apple product releases but not anymore, they are tedious and predictable,
Apart from the SJ Theatre full of whooping and clapping priviledged ticket holders I get the impression that the real Mac fans are generally unimpressed of late.
My optimistic side waits hopefully for something to arrive but Apple's "Think Different' has morphed into "Think Profit"
The only Apple thing I regret not buying are the shares...
I got sick of waiting for a new Monitor from Apple and when they introduceed that LG thing I immediately ordered a 27" Eizo G2730 Self calibrating Monitor and it is totally awsome. That is £1300 quid not in Apples bank account...
It runs fine from my 2013 Macbook Pro but i would rather power it from a desktop Mac.
Cook has slowly stripped all the life and character out of the Mac that SJ put into it, no startup chime, no pulsing sleep indicator, stupid revamped extra smiley finder icon drawn by a five year old, no glowing logo, not totally world shattering i know but it made the Mac "different" to all the boring stuff.
Cook has no personality or charisma and his whole life at Apple appears to be focussed on gadgets, Apple will be Sony before long and we know where they are headed. Accountants and bean pushers do not create exciting products.
I used to wait excitedly for the Apple product releases but not anymore, they are tedious and predictable,
Apart from the SJ Theatre full of whooping and clapping priviledged ticket holders I get the impression that the real Mac fans are generally unimpressed of late.
My optimistic side waits hopefully for something to arrive but Apple's "Think Different' has morphed into "Think Profit"
The only Apple thing I regret not buying are the shares...
Vocal MINORITY
It’s human nature. Whatever someone, whether an individual, corporation, politician, famous personality, etc. does, someone will ALWAYS find fault with it, no matter what it is.
I could solve all of the world’s problems tomorrow and at least one person will tell me I did it wrong.
All I know have either skipped or bought and returned the new MBP with a pretty much unified message that the new notebooks currently represent significantly less value, and in some cases create issues that previously never existed.
Given this is a professional audience who depend on their hardware for a living hardly surprising. The knock on effect is "Halo" as when family, friends & colleagues enquire the response is clearly less than complementary towards Apple. General consensus being one of "save your money"...
Q-6
Big fan of Apple products but quite honestly their computer hardware department has gone down the toilet the past few years. Mac Pro was poorly designed, Mac Mini running on 2012 parts in 2017, focus on being light and skinny over power with iMac, no display monitor, price scheme that does not make sense with the Macbook lines besides step downs for actual pro users, and lengthy delays between updates with no direction on whether or not a line will continue or not.
You’re right, I mis-spelled minority and it spell checked to majority and I didn’t even proof read. That’s what you get for typing on the train.
I'm just wondering who bought 4.6 million Macs in the last 3 months despite all their recent flaws. That's all.
Sadly, I’m one of the suckers. Work IT won’t support computers >3yrs old, so I needed to replace my 2013 MBP. The new MBP is an absolute piece of **** — dongles suck, the touch bar is useless, and the track pad has a horrible tendency to pick up my palms while I’m typing. IF my home MBP goes, I’ll be looking hard for a 2015 unit to replace, because I wouldn’t buy one of the new ones at half price.
Self-fulfilling prophecy. If companies don't do anything innovative in the PC space then there will be no excitement and customers aren't going to buy. And with everyone affected by such strong mobile tunnel-vision, it's unlikely that will happen anytime soon. I still stand by my view that the iMac and Mini need to be killed and replaced with something catering to a more modern desktop audience. It's not 1998 anymore. Apple doesn't have to hold the users' hands with AIO and overly-simplified boxes. It's a shame that that point of view prevails. Imagine what a fully re-imagined Mac line-up would look like in 2017.
Exactly. iPhones and iPads cannibalized the personal desktop product sales. PCs were overkill for most people’s needs anyway. I hesitate to include laptops because they seem a necessary and popular option for students.
And that’s the problem with IDC’s analysis. They lump both laptops and desktops together, and they don’t distinguish between enterprise purchases and consumer purchases. PC means personal computer. I wish the sellers would add the term EC for enterprise computer. Then the underlying reality behind these reports would be more revealing.
Apple is clearly a consumer-centric company. It’s no surprise they don’t promote the desktop Macs as much these days. Hopefully, they’ll license MacOS to PC manufacturers again (remember PowerPC?) if someday the Mac is no longer worth their effort.
I use my Surface Pro for both business and personal use... so not really anything IDC is going to be able to track. If someone buys a MacBook Pro, how would you know?
I would not characterize Apple as a consumer-centric company. That would imply that they are talking to the consumers and building what they want. Apple builds what Apple wants to build, and I don't think they do much to ask the consumer. I would say that Apple has become a smartphone company, with many accessory lines to compliment their smartphones. And their target consumer seems to be teen girls.
Huh... Apple is one of those companies who'd think "we're not making enough profits, so let's raise prices rather than increase sales
I am thinking about a Spectre for a while to replace my 13” MBP ( I want a 15” machine ) . Any idea how is the keyboard and trackpad?
Yeah, it's like looking into a restaurant and thinking it doesn't have long since they have very few patrons. However, one misses that most of their sales comes from takeout orders.
If my PC (am a Windows user) croaks, I was thinking about just getting a new one on slickdeals.net or something like that. Ended up paying $700 6 years ago for an i7 with decent RAM and other specs. It's been very good to me. Also came with a nice monitor. Video card was on the lousier side, but most of the games I play are the "mid-level" ones on Steam and Humble Bundle that don't require "uber specs anyways"
The decision's in the air, as I've had people push me to just build my own. It's even more simple than say, a decade ago (and I'm told that even then, that was a fairly low bar to clear).
Even worse. Before each new show I think to myself: "What will be killed next?"
They killed the servers. They killed the Mac Pro. They crippled the Mini. They killed the iMacs by gluing and soldering everything. They took away almost every connector on the MacBooks, even the MagSafe, and killed them (for me) because I want a 17" display.
I still use my 17" MBP, I still use my old Mac Pro and my family has several Mini i7, Mac Pro and iMac 2011. Not a single newer (>2011) desktop product made it to my house, because all of them kinda suck in one or several ways. The 27" iMacs are the only models I kinda suggest buying, not the iMacs I'd like to see, but, oh well, not as horribly bad as all of the rest.
But Cook is happy with selling TV shows and iPhones. So, well, he won't miss me as a customer anyway.
Yeah... that was kinda my point.
Every time one of these articles says "the PC market is in decline" there is always a discussion about "these numbers don't say anything about the home-built market..."
So... what about the home-built market? How big is it really? That was my question.
Is there a huge shift from people buying pre-built Dell and HP machines to building custom machines? I doubt it.
Especially since laptops are the primary form-factor.... and you can't really build your own laptop.
Besides... the pre-built PC market and the home-built PC market are literally two different things.
One is complete product... the other is a collection of components.
You would have to look individually at the CPU market, the GPU market, the hard drive market, the case market, etc.
But again... I don't think someone skips buying an HP Pavilion laptop to build their own desktop PC instead.
I honestly think the reason the pre-built PC market is down is because recent computers last longer these days. You don't have to replace them as often as you used to. Therefore it's a reduction in new computer sales... and new computer sales are what Gartner and IDC are tracking.
Yes... there is also a big market for people buying components from Newegg and assembling their own computers. But they've been doing that all along. I've been building computers for 20 years.
I don't think the drop in HP and Dell sales has much to do with home-built PCs.
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Yep. I was ready to buy a new Mac Pro, then they dropped the trashcan. So I went to EBay and bought a couple of used Mac Pro towers - 12/24 cores, 64 GB ram, multiple TB drives, multiple gfx cards. They did themselves right out of my sales, at least, by abandoning a proper tower design and trying to inflict a desktop full of wall-warts and desk-tumors on me. The computer's hardware belongs in the computer. Drives, graphics cards, memory, etc. Not hanging at the end of a wire where someone can just walk off with it or knock it on the floor.
I'm perfectly ready to buy a good tower from them. The question is, are they really ready to make one? Just admitting the trashcan was "thermally limited" doesn't really tell me what I want to know. If these get too long in the tooth, they will drive me to non-Apple alternatives. Constantly moving the we-dont-support-old-machines line in the sand isn't going to force me to buy a trashcan either. It'll just force me elsewhere.
I doubt I'm alone in this.
And yes, a nice mini would also be of interest, as would a mid-tower, both for home and family. Not at all fond of all-in-one monitor/computer designs.
Hear hear. I too am waiting for a 32GB MacBook Pro. My mid 2012 MBP is still going strong and I see no reason to cross-grade to something marginally quicker with no more RAM and a huge price tag.
I see your point and agree. I would consider "haters" to be those who hate Apple no matter what and/or want to get a rouse out of people. I guess basically a troll. They tend to say comments like "Apple sucks because they suck", "Apple sucks cause they can't play games", "Apple sucks cause they only have 1 button mice". Stuff like that. They probably don't even own Apple stuff.
The other, which whom I think lots here are, are not happy with Apple's current offerings and way of doing things. I fall into that category. I own Apple products, but am displeased where they are now and will find alternatives to meet my needs.
I agree about the Mac mini as well.
Yeah... that was kinda my point.
Every time one of these articles says "the PC market is in decline" there is always a discussion about "these numbers don't say anything about the home-built market..."
So... what about the home-built market? How big is it really? That was my question.
Is there a huge shift from people buying pre-built Dell and HP machines to building custom machines? I doubt it.
Especially since laptops are the primary form-factor.... and you can't really build your own laptop.
Besides... the pre-built PC market and the home-built PC market are literally two different things.
One is complete product... the other is a collection of components.
You would have to look individually at the CPU market, the GPU market, the hard drive market, the case market, etc.
But again... I don't think someone skips buying an HP Pavilion laptop to build their own desktop PC instead.
I honestly think the reason the pre-built PC market is down is because recent computers last longer these days. You don't have to replace them as often as you used to. Therefore it's a reduction in new computer sales... and new computer sales are what Gartner and IDC are tracking.
Yes... there is also a big market for people buying components from Newegg and assembling their own computers. But they've been doing that all along. I've been building computers for 20 years.
I don't think the drop in HP and Dell sales has much to do with home-built PCs.
yes, but the contention is, you cannot claim the "PC market is dieing" by ignoring a significant portion of it, IE, home builders.
for all we know, the PC market is growing, But because custom built, upgraders etc, are not accounted for in these statistics, claiming "PC market is dieing" is a false narrative.
What constitutes a "pc" sale for the custom builder? that's hard to tell. Is replacing a CPU/Motherboard for an upgrade a "new computer" or not? what about those who replace GPU?
for example, just 2 months ago, I replaced my Motherboard, CPU and RAM. I consider this a "new PC". But IDC doesn't account for that?
the only real way we're going to be able to start to guess is if we look at a consistent metric. if you were to use the 1 CPU = 1 PC as a barometer, there's a gross disconnect between IDC and the real world, as INtel and AMD both have estimated millions of CPU's sold above and beyond what appears here.
so this report ONLY can be stating "The prebuilt computer market is shrinking". Making any claim about the demise of PC's based on that is erroneous and is being used for an agenda.
What I believe is happening based on following both prebuilt markets and system builders markets, is that there's a divide and shift being created in the computer industry
on one side of the divide are the people who just need a computer to do basic stuff. The facebook machines and odd presentation. These are the pre-built market's target. This is shrinking due to phones, tablets, and diminishing returns in the hardware. Most prebuilt machines are perfectly capable of these basic menial tasks and have been for a long while. This is causing a long rebuy cycle, that is evidenced by shrinking prebuilt sales. These machines however tend to be sealed down, soldered on, and locked down. Not just Apple. Everyone else has trended this way in one form or another, which further pushes the rebuy of devices to a longer cycle.
then there's the market that builds their own, or hires out to have custom built. These are those looking for more performance, and more customized performance for actual performance based activities. these users have been moving steadily away from prebuilts which in the past, offered some upgradability. Now, with more and more locked down devices, they are opting for more customized options. This is evidenced by the rampant increas in sales of GPU's and CPU's that we have seen in the last few years. To the point manufacturers are not keeping up with demand (the market right now for AMD is ridiculous).
it's an interesting time to be paying attention to the computer industry. I would estimate that if you considered CPU sales as a computer sale (not exactly 1:1, i know), you'd see that there's going to be at least 10-15 million additional "computer" sales out there.
I'm not sure - the homebuilt market, while large is a drop in the bucket compared to OEMs. Always has been and mostly always will be.
Cause those #'s are so small that they make no sense to release.
There always has been that disparity, going back to the K6-2 days. In fact, Intel has been in legal trouble for paying manufacturers not to do AMD or not market them as much.
Ryzen systems were available from OEMS on Launch day or shortly thereafter.