Apple's Mac Shipments Down in Q3 2017 Amid Continuing PC Market Decline

[Baymowe335]

It isn't that Apple doesn't innovate, its that its in places that a lot of traditional Apple customers don't care about. When a company calls it "courage" to remove a headphone jack that most users want, and lie about not being able to fit it in, then they have lost touch with customers. When SJ was setting the path, you could argue that they dictated to their customers, but that had someone dictating that resonated with the customer base. They don't have that person anymore, so the dictating has become dangerous. It leads to wonky innovation.



I think its that they lack proper vision. They are led by a guy who's vision is all about social issues and I don't think really even understands much of the technology that his company produces. His keynote talks always sound fake, and that they are all trying to look and act like SJ did... but that's not who he is. Faking is never a good thing. Look at Microsoft... Ballmer was Ballmer, and Nadella is Nadella. They are very different and have different visions. Tim is trying to phone in SJ's vision and not good at it the longer time goes on.

Most users don't necessarily want a headphone jack in that sense. They want their wired headphones to work and Apple gave them a dongle and (correctly) said the future was wireless. You also get a pair of headphones in the box that work with the lightning port. Only nerds like you think the headphone is the utltimate audio experience...yet remember you're listening on a phone, not a $15,000 home theater system with monitor equipment.

I don't think it's some awesome decision, but don't act like people gave a crap. Apple sold well over 200M phones during the iPhone 7 run. People don't care as much as you think. People want a phone that works, has emojis, and is easy and fast to use. Apple delivers on the things that matter, most of the time.

You don't like it and want a headphone jack? Well, I can't recommend Pixel because they also copied Apple and removed it, but how about going to Android? Then you can have your useless headphone jack, TouchWiz, and an operating system that's 2 iterations behind because they can't push an update to every different phone running Android unless it's THE most current model.

For whatever financial reason, Apple got rid of it and people still bought the phones, in record numbers. They sold almost 80M iPhone is one QUARTER (almost 1M per DAY) with their flagship missing the headphone jack. Get over it. Headphone jack is gone forever.

The most phones Jobs ever sold in a year was about 70M and he refused to build an iPhone with a screen larger than 4 inches. Jobs was a genius, great, and a visionary, but he was stubborn as a mule. Cook has grown Apple into an $800B beast, producing the best silicon Apple has EVER made, put out the most popular watch in the world, and is selling over 3X what Jobs ever sold in the iPhone.

Please, just stop.

 

[gnomeisland]

Don't even mention this (until Joni retires)
MacBook thickness might get into negative territory - meaning no more ports or even that they cease to exist...
However, following the iDevice trends would essentially mean keeping the same form factor for 4/5 years (which indeed seems to be the current MacBook novolution - so we seem on track...)

I think you misunderstand me. I don't mean brash new designs. Apple used to come out with a new design and then update the computer every 12-18 months. Pre-2013 Mac Pros all looked the same but the components changed considerably until 2009/2010 (which is about when Apple slowly stopped interacting the computer lines). Same thing for laptops (to a slightly lesser degree). With redesigns happening every 3-5 years but enough changes that parts were often not compatibly between model years. My point is that in-between these drastic changes in ports and thinness (not really looking to debate that) the engineers should again take over from the artists and continue to iterate within the confines of the general design/ergonomics.

 

[BeforeTheMeds]

This!

Last month I bout a Lenovo E570. Base Price was $850 on sale. i7-7500 KabyLake, 8gig of DDR4 RAM (single stick), 15inch HD IPS Screen, Nvidia 950M 2gig plus Intel GPU, 256gig M2 PCIE HD, Intel AC wireless. Ports GIGE Ethernet, 3-USB A 3.1 ports, HDMI, SD Card reader, VGA. I bought another 8gig stick to bring it up to 16gig, it supports up to 32gig. I also bought a 1TB Samsung 960 EVO, M2 PCIE SSD, and finally another 90watt power brick. Total was about $1400.

The computer is blazing fast, I mean cold power on to login 5 seconds at the most, mostly because of the M2 SSD. It is expandable in terms of RAM and HD. It has a great set of ports. The keyboard is typical Thinkpad or about 100x better than the latest MBP's. The trackpad is not as good but very close as it is a certified "Microsoft Precision Trackpad". It is heavier and thicker than the MBP and is plastic. Sitting on the same table as my 15inch late 2013 MBP, that weight and thickness do not matter once I start using it. The best part for me as a network person, I do not have to run a VM just for Microsoft Visio anymore!

Pricing out the lowest end 15inch MBP, the one with no toucbar, with a 2.5ghz i7 (true quad core) vs my 2.7ghz, 16gigs of RAM (maxed) and 1TB SSD (I believe they are M2 PCIE now) soldered in, would run me $2699. Ad another power brick...$2799.

So the price difference is $1400....or basically a second Lenovo with my specs. Hey the Mac is thinner and looks nicer and when I carry it from my bag to the desk I can feel that cool aluminum in my hands!

Exactly. I got an aluminum hp envy kabylake i7-7560 2.4, 12 gigs upgradable ram, 640 iris plus, 1tb ssd, 4k ips 15” touch screen. I paid less than 1000 straight from hp and tgats what I have in it. A macbook pro with less cost 1500.00 more.

 

[UltimaKilo]

I wonder if early support of Coffee Lake would make a difference? It’s a great CPU and would give some serious power to the MBP.

I wonder just how many people will wait it out for 2019 for DDR4 and 32gb of RAM with a supposedly much better iGPU.

 

[Williesleg]

So tired of waiting for a new Mac mini. All I want is something small to drive a 4k display. Guess I'll have to get an Intel NUC.

Too bad, Apple.

 

[Niklas_nick]

I got my mom a rMBP and my girlfriend a tbMBP this year and convinced my uncle to get a 27" iMac just this summer because their old (windows) computers just had to be replaced but the current lineup, features and pricing can't convince me to replace any of my collection of older macs even though I'd like to.

The purchases were just a we had no choice because a new computer was needed and at Apples current direction I'm afraid that will be the same for when I will replace my rMBP at some point because let's be honest, coming from OS X you won't just switch to Windows.

 

[Michael Scrip]

for example, just 2 months ago, I replaced my Motherboard, CPU and RAM. I consider this a "new PC". But IDC doesn't account for that?

Correct. Why would they? You bought a bunch of parts... not a new PC.

The components you purchased would be counted as sales for motherboards, CPUs and RAM.

I understand that your parts became a new PC... but that's not what IDC, Gartner, and others are counting.

Look at the names on IDC's list: HP, Dell, Lenovo, etc. They are estimating the sales of complete PCs from these major vendors.

It does not recognize Michael Scrip and LordVic with our Newegg purchases.

Like I said... our component purchases would appear on other individual lists.

So do we really need to add the prefix "pre-built" to every report like this? I assumed it was understood.

There have always been vendors like HP, Dell and Lenovo selling complete computers... and guys like you and me who build our own computers from a bunch of parts.

But the reports from IDC and others have always referenced the "pre-built" market.

If it makes you feel better.... every time you see "PC market in decline" just add the words "pre-built" to the headline.

But it doesn't change the fact that this market is, in fact, declining.

I am also well aware of the home-built market... as I've been playing in this space for 20 years.

But that's not what these reports from IDC and Gartner are talking about.

There are other reports discussing CPU sales, GPU sales, motherboard sales, hard drive sales, monitor sales, case sales, etc.

This was my last upgrade a couple years ago... but it was not counted in the so-called "PC market"

But look man... I see your point. You see headlines saying "PC market in decline" and you immediately respond with "but look at everything that is happening! Ryzen, Threadripper, GPUs oh my!"

Yes... there is certainly excitement in the enthusiast PC space today. Perhaps more than ever!

But all these IDC and Gartner reports are for the "pre-built" space.

And let's be clear... this doesn't mean that people STOP using PCs. All it means is that they are buying fewer new machines. (pre-built machines )

Component sales are a whole other beast.

 

[xitongzou]

Maybe because the current MacBook Pro is basically an upscale Macbook Air? It's not "pro" anymore..

 

[LordVic]

So do we really need to add the prefix "pre-built" to every report like this? I assumed it was understood.

because the subject of the article is the decline of the PC... which this doesn't evidence

i thought I worded that clearly

the decline might be in pre-built machines, but not in the computer industry as a whole

it's just misleading and i'm being captain pedantic

you and I know this.. however, there are probably a thousand other people who will read the headline, read the chart and think "hey computer industry is shrinking!" which is just fatually untrue and not evidenced here.

 

[Michael Scrip]

because the subject of the article is the decline of the PC... which this doesn't evidence

i thought I worded that clearly

the decline might be in pre-built machines, but not in the computer industry as a whole

it's just misleading and i'm being captain pedantic

IDC, Gartner and others have always talked about complete PC sales from HP, Dell, Lenovo, etc... and NOT component sales.

You're just gonna have to remember that the next time you see a report like this (in 3 months or so)

Quick question:

If you buy a frame, crate motor, transmission, suspension, wheels, tires... are you part of the automobile market?

No, right? You just bought a bunch of parts.

 

[LordVic]

IDC, Gartner and others have always talked about complete PC sales from HP, Dell, Lenovo, etc... and NOT component sales.

You're just gonna have to remember that the next time you see a report like this (in 3 months or so)

Quick question:

If you buy a frame, crate motor, transmission, suspension, wheels, tires... are you part of the automobile market?

No, right? You just bought a bunch of parts.

Yes!. because you are driving a car on the road, and should be included in the count of cars on the road.

 

[Michael Scrip]

Yes! because you are driving a car on the road, and should be included in the count of cars on the road.

Well... that's not how it works... sadly.

In this case... reports from IDC and Gartner are talking about complete PCs sold by vendors... not the components you buy separately and assemble yourself.

If Dell gets $600 from the sale of a complete PC... that's a PC sale.

But if Newegg gets $600 from the sales of a bunch of parts... that's not a PC sale.

Those would instead fall under the category of "component sales"

As you can imagine... CPUs, GPUs, RAM, motherboards and other parts have their own markets.

Have you ever seen a report about the GPU market? Well that's because when you buy a video card... it contributes to that report. And no other.

 

[LordVic]

Well... that's not how it works... sadly.

In this case... reports from IDC and Gartner are talking about complete PCs sold by vendors... not the components you buy separately and assemble yourself.

If Dell gets $600 from the sale of a complete PC... that's a PC sale.

But if Newegg gets $600 from the sales of a bunch of parts... that's not a PC sale.

Those would instead fall under the category of "component sales"

As you can imagine... CPUs, GPUs, RAM, motherboards and other parts have their own markets.

Have you ever seen a report about the GPU market? Well that's because when you buy a video card... it contributes to that report. And no other.

now we're both just being pedantic (which is fun!)

doesn't change the fact that the headline

"
Amid Continuing PC Market Decline"

is still factually wrong.

 

[Michael Scrip]

now we're both just being pedantic (which is fun!)

doesn't change the fact that the headline

"Amid Continuing PC Market Decline"

is still factually wrong.

It's not wrong.

The "PC market" is the market of PCs. Complete PCs that you purchase.

The number of PCs being sold today is smaller than the numbers in previous times. It's in decline. Look at the reports.

It has NOTHING to do with individual components that you happen to assemble into a PC.

That would be the "component market" or broken down into the "GPU market" and "hard drive market" etc.

I know you don't agree with it... but IDC, Gartner and others are reporting on sales of complete PCs. Period.

Think of it this way:

If I said "housing market" you'd think of real estate, homes for sale, etc.

But that's different than the "lumber market"

Even though you use lumber to build houses... and lots of people buy lumber to build houses... they are different markets.

The "housing market" is the sale of houses... the "lumber market" is sales of lumber.

Or if I said "automobile market" you'd think of Toyota, Honda, etc. They sell automobiles.

So is Tire Rack part of the "automobile market" ?

No... they are part of the "tire market"

 

[convergent]

I got my mom a rMBP and my girlfriend a tbMBP this year and convinced my uncle to get a 27" iMac just this summer because their old (windows) computers just had to be replaced but the current lineup, features and pricing can't convince me to replace any of my collection of older macs even though I'd like to.

The purchases were just a we had no choice because a new computer was needed and at Apples current direction I'm afraid that will be the same for when I will replace my rMBP at some point because let's be honest, coming from OS X you won't just switch to Windows.

Speak for yourself. I went from a Mac to Windows and love it. My only remaining Mac is used to backup my wife's iPad and iPhone... nothing else.

 

[Queen6]

Speak for yourself. I went from a Mac to Windows and love it. My only remaining Mac is used to backup my wife's iPad and iPhone... nothing else.

Out of Apple professionally, thx to the poor quality of the desktop OS & the lack of value the current hardware line up represents these days. I don't love Windows 10, however for my professional needs Microsoft's OS is fast, fluid and most of all stable, embarrassingly so compared to my Mac's. Windows 10 has it's own share of issues, equally the OS and providers own apps don't interfere with my workflow...

Q-6

 

[Robstevo]

I suspect the iPhones will have the same sort of results in terms of loss percentages.

Simply fact is competition is caught up in build quality and features for half the price.

In Australia iPhone x = 1830 dollars, I can pick up an s8 plus for around 1000 dollars.

For 2800 I can get a dell XPS 15 inch for 2800 which has a better screen, double the memory, far better graphics, more ports, similar build qualit etc for 1000 dollars less

With Apple you used to sort of take the bullet because the build quality was far ahead. Now? Not really so you can't really justify it.

 

[Ener Ji]

you and I know this.. however, there are probably a thousand other people who will read the headline, read the chart and think "hey computer industry is shrinking!" which is just fatually untrue and not evidenced here.

doesn't change the fact that the headline

"
Amid Continuing PC Market Decline"

is still factually wrong.

Unless I've missed it, you've offered zero evidence to the contrary. I see you've made a bunch of claims of how many millions of enthusiasts there are building their own PCs, but how do they stack up against the 260 million+ yearly sales of pre-built PCs? I suspect they are a drop in the bucket, but I don't have any evidence either way. Do you?

 

[Bacillus]

I think you misunderstand me. I don't mean brash new designs. Apple used to come out with a new design and then update the computer every 12-18 months. Pre-2013 Mac Pros all looked the same but the components changed considerably until 2009/2010 (which is about when Apple slowly stopped interacting the computer lines). Same thing for laptops (to a slightly lesser degree). With redesigns happening every 3-5 years but enough changes that parts were often not compatibly between model years. My point is that in-between these drastic changes in ports and thinness (not really looking to debate that) the engineers should again take over from the artists and continue to iterate within the confines of the general design/ergonomics.

What you refer to is the original lead take-over at Apple where design used to come first and engineering second. Engineers would then accomodate to drastic new designs and only later on, further optimize (like the "S" cycle with iPhones)
That's my favorite order of things too.
However, at Apple clinical eradication (of the Headphone jack for the mass adoption of Airpods, of MagSafe, of the Homebutton) and anorexia to the extreme (for the sole benefit of J. Ive) have impeded functionality (regular battery capacity, connectivity) so much that they have become a burden by themselves.
My guess is that someone should control Ive to stop him - or either he has to leave.
I have stopped buying his anorectic products with cumbersome shortcomings

 

[Val-kyrie]

Maybe I'm totally remembering wrong -- isn't this the first YoY decline in Mac shipments in a lonnng time?

Not to jump to conclusion -- but IF it is, then you really have to look at the price/functionality of the new MBP's and wonder, "Hmm."

Unfortunately, the reason for the declining shipments has to be interpreted. In Tim Cook's rose colored world, he will likely view this decline as a reason to push to replace Macs with iPads rather than realize the price, performance, and design all need to change to make the Mac more appealing.

You can say how bad the new Macbooks are... you won't be alone.

But clearly someone bought 4,613,000 Macintosh computers in the last 3 months... and I'd imagine most of them were laptops. (but I doubt many of them were old 2015 refurbs)

So are people purposely buying these terrible computers?

I wish Apple would break down their sales by models. I know several people who purchased older 2015 models when they were available or MBAs because they disliked both the all-USB-C design and the outrageous pricing on the current Macs.

Personally, with Apple's seeming transition to FaceID, I think it would be foolish to trust the longevity of the inbuilt TouchID on the newer Macs.

 

[Bacillus]

Personally, with Apple's seeming transition to FaceID, I think it would be foolish to trust the longevity of the inbuilt TouchID on the newer Macs.

Fortunately, that remains to be seen.
Those inventions that Phil proudly designates as "platform innovations" (TouchBar, 3DTouch, Apple pencil support, Lightning port) increasingly fail to become mainstream for various reasons.

 

[Val-kyrie]

Fortunately, that remains to be seen.
Those inventions that Phil proudly designates as "platform innovations" (TouchBar, 3DTouch, Apple pencil support, Lightning port) increasingly fail to become mainstream for various reasons.

Whatever happened to e-GPU support? Didn't Apple mention support for this was coming with High Sierra or did I imagine this?

 

[Glassed Silver]

One thing these do not take into account is the large market for upgrading and custom built computers prevalent in the PC industry.

This does not account for those users who replace their own gpus or CPU’s or do custom kits. The gaming pc industry is worth billions. And as off the shelf computers get more expensive for “design”, many more people looking for workstation class, or gaming class hardware will by components and build out their own.

None of that is accounted in these numbers.

As prices in prebuilt continue to rise, the home built will likely see a resurgence. Especially since it’s really the only way to get high end desktops these days.


Example you can look up. Ryzen sales are brand new. There are virtually no prebuilt selling them yet. However they have sold millions already.

This means millions of new desktops have been built on the Ryzen platform alone that were not prebuilt computers. None of those computers are in this chart.

I don't understand how I never thought of this, but you're right and this really does put things into perspective.

Especially as Macs become more and more locked to the specs you buy them with it should help Apple's sales a bit...

To see YoY Mac decline anyhow is interesting to say the least, but then again I have a feeling I know why.

Every time I forget for a short moment what the specs, ports (or lack thereof) and the upgradability are for the current Apple laptops I go to apple.de and check out their line up.

It goes like this: MacBook Air... Nope, need Retina.
MacBook: Uhm, nice if I only plan to use Safari and do everything I already do on my iPad... Pass!
MacBook Pro: Integrated graphics... no ports... absolute shutdown on upgrades...

And I'm not even going to mention iMacs, keeping my warranty and looking at the SSD option prices...

Laptop-wise I'd be better off going for an old refurb... So I'll rather wait it out until they have something decent again.

Desktop-wise... Well I can spend a LOT to get an SSD with a new iMac... or use my current one with the Samsung SSD I equipped it with and still be able to do most things I need to do.

Heavy lifting computing? Not on Mac for me. I'd rather spend my tech budget on a home server and a DIY Windows box for everything that my trusty old iMac isn't capable of anymore.

Always understood and accepted the Apple premium price tag.

Right now they just don't balance things correctly. Good for them if it works out, too bad for me and people like me.

Glassed Silver:mac

 

[Bacillus]

In other news, provisioning genius Cook found shelf space for unused MacMini parts that will never see daylight !!
https://twitter.com/tim_cook/status/917298636173783040
[doublepost=1507821438][/doublepost]

Whatever happened to e-GPU support? Didn't Apple mention support for this was coming with High Sierra or did I imagine this?

The faster the quote, the harder to implement

 

[kyleh22]

I am thinking about a Spectre for a while to replace my 13” MBP ( I want a 15” machine ) . Any idea how is the keyboard and trackpad?

The keyboard and trackpad are awesome. The trackpads not as good as the macs but it's still very good.
[doublepost=1507827107][/doublepost]

True... but the Spectre series can't be the main reason why HP is up... can it? They're $1,000+ machines.

If I had to guess... I'd say the majority of their sales are still regular ol' Pavilion laptops... i.e. cheap machines.

And for some reason... HP happened to pass Lenovo worldwide by a couple hundred-thousand units this last quarter. Ebbs and flows most likely.

I can say that HP has a great corporate program. I've seen many colleges that work for other companies switch from lenevo to HP over the past few years.