Apple's New Mac Pro Won't Be 'Made in USA' as Production Reportedly Moving to China

[supercoolmanchu]

It's also a 'truth' to capitalism as it's now practiced. Manufacturing will always flee to where the cost of labor is cheapest. That's why the southern states have grabbed up most of what's left in this country and the rest goes to places with even cheaper labor. Those who defend capitalism - this is how it works. Things that take a higher degree of education and cutting edge tech will expand in advanced economies and 'labor' will go to where it's cheapest. I'm not a fan of this economic model but I find it surprising that so many people who take their bibles out and pray on behalf of capitalism then find it shocking that ultimately huge amounts of the lowest skill jobs are reduced to sub-survival wages and the rest flee the country. What did they think capitalism meant?

I think you’re trying to make some case against what you think is capitalism.

Bur the economic policy of the USA is not capitalism, it’s been a managed economy for a hundred years, which is the complete opposite.

So imagine how much time, energy and concern you’re waisting on economics and philosophy because your facts and premise are totally flawed.

 

[mikethemartian]

Do your realize that this American argument is tiresome, old and doesn't actually justify the destructive capitalism that you all defend even though it is responsible for the disastrous state your nation is in? There are only a fistful of people that actually benefit from capitalism -- billionaires. Everybody else is just paying the price and suffering for it obe way or another, day in day out.

The quote "We work jobs we hate to buy **** we don't need" from Fight Club only scratches the surface, but describes our everyday lives quite well.

Companies have social responsibilities as well, and the Scandinavian countries set an excellent example that wealth can be distributed fairly and can be there for all who live in a country, not just for a few.

But yeah, Americans like to believe in their own marketing for the American dream... When was the last time you actually met a millionaire who did not inherit his money from rich parents? Or did not become wealthy through criminal deeds or by screwing others over? The American dream has always been nothing but a well-marketed myth to keep the wage slaves in line.

Personally I find living off another person by having their wealth redistributed to me depressing.

 

[ghanwani]

https://www.freemarketfoundation.com/article-view/letter-to-his-grandson

Mr. Kent’s grandson, then a schoolboy, was disturbed by the current fashion of disparaging the profit system. He had asked his grandfather to explain just how there can be a profit which is not taken from the work of someone else.

April 1942

My dear grandson:

I will answer your question as simply as I can. Profit is the result of enterprise which builds for others as well as for the enterpriser.
...

This is worth a read.

Unfortunately what happens with moving production to lower cost areas is short term gain followed by long term pain. There is no ingenuity there. Nobody has to think hard for an innovative solution. That's why offshoring is so popular. It's a no brainer in the short term, but it guts the economy and community in the long term. The long term effects become "somebody else's" problem.

 

[manu chao]

This news made me sad. If a company of Apple's stature building expensive, luxury goods cannot keep its manufacturing in the US, what hope does the US manufacturing sector have?

Where have you been in the last 20 years? All that production left the U.S. long time ago. Bringing the production of the trashcan Mac Pro back to the U.S. was an aberration and overall rather a failed experiment.

 

[LogicalApex]

Do your realize that this American argument is tiresome, old and doesn't actually justify the destructive capitalism that you all defend even though it is responsible for the disastrous state your nation is in? There are only a fistful of people that actually benefit from capitalism -- billionaires. Everybody else is just paying the price and suffering for it obe way or another, day in day out.

The quote "We work jobs we hate to buy **** we don't need" from Fight Club only scratches the surface, but describes our everyday lives quite well.

Companies have social responsibilities as well, and the Scandinavian countries set an excellent example that wealth can be distributed fairly and can be there for all who live in a country, not just for a few.

But yeah, Americans like to believe in their own marketing for the American dream... When was the last time you actually met a millionaire who did not inherit his money from rich parents? Or did not become wealthy through criminal deeds or by screwing others over? The American dream has always been nothing but a well-marketed myth to keep the wage slaves in line.

You are very much correct.

Sadly, I blame education levels. People here in the US accept crony capitalism as if it is gospel, but very few have read Adam Smith's Wealth of Nations and have no idea what capitalism operating correctly should begin to look like.

They are ignorant to the reality that capitalism without any guard rails will only race toward monopolies whose goal is to extract as much wealth for themselves as possible (even to the extent of killing off the economy it depends on). They have a poor understanding of economics and generally sacrifice their own well being for the wealthy.

 

[ghanwani]

Where have you been in the last 20 years? All that production left the U.S. long time ago. Bringing the production of the trashcan Mac Pro back to the U.S. was an aberration and overall rather a failed experiment.

That it failed is why it makes me sad.

 

[limo79]

Nokia moved assembly to China to cut the cost. Now as HMD Global no one wants a copycat assembled in China based on Android. Maybe they are popular in India but in Europe they totally do not exist even if they claim that financial results are good. If I want to buy a $5000 guitar from Fender / Gibson / Taylor Custom Shop so I expect that it will be Born in the USA Because I buy not just a product but personality and symbol. If Apple drop price of Mac Pro to Dell/HP/Lenovo prices then they can move it to China but everyone knows that it will not happen. This greedy company even does not give you $5 fast charger and $1 cover to $1000 smartphone.

 

[LogicalApex]

Personally I find living off another person by having their wealth redistributed to me depressing.

How do you deal with the reality of governments at all? Unless you're wealthy enough to fund a state entirely on your own you're depending on the redistribution of another person's wealth for something albeit security or infrastructure or governance or a large multitude of things.

I'm not sure anyone is rich enough in the modern world to self fund any state to a degree well enough to secure that wealth, except maybe dictators who've seized the wealth of many and continue to do so.

 

[barmann]

With a price tag of $5999, you'd think that there would be enough "overhead" to pay an American worker a living wage to, at the very least, assemble these. The iMac we just bought for a client was assembled in Pennsylvania.

Define assembled .

 

[barmann]

I think you’re trying to make some case against what you think is capitalism.

Bur the economic policy of the USA is not capitalism, it’s been a managed economy for a hundred years, which is the complete opposite.

So imagine how much time, energy and concern you’re waisting on economics and philosophy because your facts and premise are totally flawed.

Capitalism is not a clearly defined term .
It is however not the sort of anarchy you seem to suggest it should be, not by anyone's definition apart from Fox pundits' .

Capitalism as we know it has been regulated from day one , and that concept has never been in question .
It's like freedom - without responsibility there is none .

 

[mikethemartian]

How do you deal with the reality of governments at all? Unless you're wealthy enough to fund a state entirely on your own you're depending on the redistribution of another person's wealth for something albeit security or infrastructure or governance or a large multitude of things.

I'm not sure anyone is rich enough in the modern world to self fund any state to a degree well enough to secure that wealth, except maybe dictators who've seized the wealth of many and continue to do so.

I don’t understand you at all. I work for a living. When I do work for someone they pay me the rate we agreed upon. When I stop working for them they stop paying me. They don’t owe me any payment beyond the work I’ve done for them. I don’t claim to be “wealthy enough to fund a state entirely” but I can certainly fund myself.

 

[VictorTango777]

It doesn't matter the reasoning to stock holders. Stock holders don't care about living wages, design choices or whatever. They just need to see a profit, and that products are made to be as profitable as possible.

That's the nature of capitalism that is so tightly embraced.

It's even worse considering that the majority of Apple stock is held by institutional investors which probably don't even use Macs. Why would Mac users put the future of Macs in the hands of people who don't even use them?

 

[mikethemartian]

You are very much correct.

Sadly, I blame education levels. People here in the US accept crony capitalism as if it is gospel, but very few have read Adam Smith's Wealth of Nations and have no idea what capitalism operating correctly should begin to look like.

They are ignorant to the reality that capitalism without any guard rails will only race toward monopolies whose goal is to extract as much wealth for themselves as possible (even to the extent of killing off the economy it depends on). They have a poor understanding of economics and generally sacrifice their own well being for the wealthy.

Those “guards rails” is what makes it crony capitalism vs free market. People seem to think that they protect the average person at the expense of big companies but it is really the other way around. Once you have lawmakers and regulatory agencies controlling a market it is an opportunity for large wealthy companies that have a lot of influence ($$$) to get benefits over smaller companies in the industry. For instance the “too big to fail” doctrine that was used to bailout Goldman Sachs.

 

[LogicalApex]

Those “guards rails” is what makes it crony capitalism vs free market. People seem to think that they protect the average person at the expense of big companies but it is really the other way around. Once you have lawmakers and regulatory agencies controlling a market it is an opportunity for large wealthy companies that have a lot of influence ($$$) to get benefits over smaller companies in the industry. For instance the “too big to fail” doctrine that was used to bailout Goldman Sachs.

I'd disagree. The guardrails are very much needed just like Adam Smith said. Excessive regulation is a result of corporate interest suppressing competition, but no regulation is a similar disaster as it allows the monopolist to use their size to prevent competition.

The problem we have is coming up with effective tools to counter regulatory capture which is a major impediment to ensuring the rules are fair, proper, and in the best interest of the public. The solution isn't to repudiate rules altogether as Capitalism without guard rails is a train without brakes. It is only a matter of time before it collapses.

“The interest of [businessmen] is always in some respects different from, and even opposite to, that of the public ... The proposal of any new law or regulation of commerce which comes from this order ... ought never to be adopted, till after having been long and carefully examined ... with the most suspicious attention. It comes from an order of men ... who have generally an interest to deceive and even oppress the public”

- Adam Smith, Wealth of Nations

 

[LogicalApex]

I don’t understand you at all. I work for a living. When I do work for someone they pay me the rate we agreed upon. When I stop working for them they stop paying me. They don’t owe me any payment beyond the work I’ve done for them. I don’t claim to be “wealthy enough to fund a state entirely” but I can certainly fund myself.

Except. you can't fund yourself otherwise you'd be advocating we live in a "state of nature" as John Locke eloquently described it. Instead, you live in a society where you've surrendered natural freedoms to a government with the aim of ensuring you actually have freedom and liberty and that comes at a cost (as in a state of nature he who has the biggest stick takes whatever he or she pleases).

The redistribution of wealth from you (and others) in society are used to ensure you have the freedom and security to think the only wealth needed is enough to buy things you prefer, but not to build roads, pay for private body guards and security, to educate your workers, to hire goons to enforce contracts, etc.

Valid questions can be posed regarding the validity of various government services and the correct use of tax revenue, but "redistribution" arguments are nonsensical. Unless, you're advocating for a State of Nature and general anarchism.

 

[Huntn]

Greedy old Tim Crook, up to his usual one trick pony leadership.

Gotta keep the shareholders happy. Employees? Eh...
[doublepost=1561850026][/doublepost]

And I'm sure Apple will pass along the cost savings to its customers.

Please include the /s when appropriate.

 

[sransari]

Greedy old Tim Crook, up to his usual one trick pony leadership.

Why is simply trying to save money considered “greedy?” Are you greedy for comparison shopping and using coupon codes?

And what is wrong with using Chinese labor? Are Chinese people inferior to Americans simply because of where they are located?

Logically, globalization results in the best results because a specific task is done by those with the highest quality and lowest price. That’s a good thing, and the only objection to this is based on superiority and xenophobia.

 

[willmtaylor]

+Any proprietary technology now belongs to China.

Including its workers.

 

[deconstruct60]

that depends if Apple is willing to eat the losses in the USA and the price didn't include the COGS(cost of goods sold) tariff.

Losses in the USA? Making the Mac Pro in the USA would incur no net loss whatsoever. That is just pure smoke. In the USA or not is merely a matter of the Scrooge McDuck money pit depth level; not profit and loss.

My guess is that this may partially have to more do due with locating the Mac Pro (or at least the case production) closer to the new MBA Retina and its 100% recycle aluminum. Drill tons of holes create tons of scrap. Take scrap and throw into the pile for making MBA cases ( along with XDR case scrap , iPhone case scrap , etc. ).

Quanta is also making custom servers for Facebook ( Open Compute designs). There is a pretty good chance their were itching to expand work on higher margin "server grade" like motherboards and willing to do extra work to make a double sided board for Apple on a flexible, just-in-time framework. [ that is a good counterbalance to the bulk of their laptop and mobile build contracting. ]


the 25% tariff it kicked in probably would be a significant blow to the Mac Pro numbers though. The higher the average selling price the higher the number of Apple systems in those zones sell in the USA versus the rest of the world. Apple market share in the USA for mid-high end Mac products is higher in the USA that it is in the rest of the world ( Mac market share in USA is different from world wide share.).

On top of that they already boosted the entry level price over 100% . So the total addressable market is way down right there. Another 25% will be even more. Additionally the very high core count CPU models Apple appears to be using are Intel's +3K high memory ( > 1TB) models. It is already +3K just for the 'extra" 500GB and 25% would be even more pain for that privlege. ( Unless these CPUs got tagged as USA 're-import' product and skip the tax .. die fabbed in USA and repackaged offshore. )

 

[Christian 5G]

With news like this I wonder more and more, can Tim be replaced? Or is he going to be serving as CEO for Apple for the rest of his life?

 

[0388631]

With news like this I wonder more and more, can Tim be replaced? Or is he going to be serving as CEO for Apple for the rest of his life?

Why would he be replaced?

 

[Alan Wynn]

LOL

The 1.5TB RAM option alone will be north of 50K

128GB ECC modules are about $1,500. Twelve of them are about $18,000, so even if Apple charges a 2X premium for certified and tested memory, it is $36,000.

75-90 all in.

Just as people were saying $20,000 to $25,000 for the iMac Pro that ended up at about $16,000 fully loaded, I would expect the fully loaded Mac Pro to be quite a bit less than predictions like yours.

 

[0388631]

I suspect the CNC costs in the US were too high and they couldn't get a steady supply of cases if orders peaked. Not that I'm an expert, but I suspect it's at least a six-axis CNC unit that's required.

 

[handheldgames]

Losses in the USA? Making the Mac Pro in the USA would incur no net loss whatsoever. That is just pure smoke. In the USA or not is merely a matter of the Scrooge McDuck money pit depth level; not profit and loss.

My guess is that this may partially have to more do due with locating the Mac Pro (or at least the case production) closer to the new MBA Retina and its 100% recycle aluminum. Drill tons of holes create tons of scrap. Take scrap and throw into the pile for making MBA cases ( along with XDR case scrap , iPhone case scrap , etc. ).

Quanta is also making custom servers for Facebook ( Open Compute designs). There is a pretty good chance their were itching to expand work on higher margin "server grade" like motherboards and willing to do extra work to make a double sided board for Apple on a flexible, just-in-time framework. [ that is a good counterbalance to the bulk of their laptop and mobile build contracting. ]

... the post I replied to doubled in length whilst I was replying. This reply should still be relevant.

In the context of the whole sentence... 'losses' referred to the $6000 cost without accounting for the cost of tariffs in the price. If the $6000 did not include the tariff increase, and apple maintained that price despite the tariffs, Apple would see a loss in the profit per unit. Period. Whether that eliminates some, most, all profit is only something Apple could answer.

Regarding Austin Texas, Apple lost a manufacturing tax credit that increased the cost of AS-IS overhead and cost. One would think that any existing production lines for 6,1 components have been idle for years, operating at a trickle of any potential capacity. Clearly Tim Apple is more interested in investing in a new manufacturing line in China than supporting manufacturing and/or assembly in Texas, USA.

 

[hagjohn]

Personally I find living off another person by having their wealth redistributed to me depressing.

You can say, every time you get paid, you are living off another person, your employer.

The 99% own an economy. If we spend money (on non-bills), that makes the economy grow. If we do not spend money, the economy will go into a recession. If the 99% has no spendable cash, then the economy of this country will collapse because nobody will have any jobs (because nobody will be buying anything).