Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
Say Apple did what you suggest, let everyone use outside payment methods in apps, while still keeping their pricing at 30% for initial app purchases and Apple-serviced in-app purchases. What happens then? Eventually, nearly every app would switch to free-in-the-store-but-pay-us-through-our-website (because, of course, companies would like as much of the money as possible to stay in their hands). At that point, the App Store has nothing actually for sale, they only have "free" apps (no cost to download and the developers collect their money offsite), and the App Store brings in no income - it becomes unsustainable and perhaps eventually goes away (it does get crazy amounts of traffic, and that does cost quite a bit to maintain). Is that an outcome you want?

What you are saying is your own conjecture but it's not necessarily the case. There are examples where an app store can exist along side with 3rd party payments, and the app store is not going away like you are suggesting. For example the Google play store.
[doublepost=1468766439][/doublepost]
Exactly what I wanted to say to trifid. Was hitting my head on the table reading his posts and minsunderstandings.

You think that 30% premium being passed to customer has no impact on subscriptions and the industry? Of course it does, Apple is being another fat pig taking a cut off the backs of artists and Spotify by passing the premium onto customers is making subscriptions 30% more expensive which in turn alienates a good amount subscribers and represents lost royalties for artists.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: apolloa
Ah so because as I suspected you cannot explain why on android you have iap in an app like Amazon Prime and on iOS you don't, you've decided to make some attempt at an excuse for Spotify's business model, tell me do you run your own global multi million user music subscription service? Or just act like you do, I mean you seem to feel experienced enough to comment on Spotify's business model, which is really just you appologising for Apple and its attempts to crush the competition no matter what for more profits...

Saying Spotify's business model is bad isn't apologizing for Apple. There is no need to apologize for Apple. Their store, their rules. Spotify can either get over it or get the hell out of the store.
[doublepost=1468772611][/doublepost]
Kill the competition off, then put in a new cheaper proposal to the government and make gigabillions.

How will this kill off competition? All Spotify has to do is dump the free tier and they'll be profitable.
 
Saying Spotify's business model is bad isn't apologizing for Apple. There is no need to apologize for Apple. Their store, their rules. Spotify can either get over it or get the hell out of the store.
[doublepost=1468772611][/doublepost]

How will this kill off competition? All Spotify has to do is dump the free tier and they'll be profitable.

Well the way I see it, is unless you are on the board of directors running a global multi million user subscription music streaming business, how can anyone take you seriously when you attempt to proclaim I know exactly what Spotify needs to do here....
If you knew what Spotify needed to do you wouldn't be typing it on an internet forum, you would be working for Spotify doing it.

So yes it is appologising for Apples dirty business tactics, and the poster ignored my comment on the obvious of the differences in app features on different platforms.

I do recall doom and gloom proclaimed about Netflix, people went around proclaiming it was loosing money and would go into receivership, it's business plan didn't work and even investors dumped their stock. And we all can see what happened to that story...
 
Tell me what I am stolen? What is the thing that got moved around?

Downloading torrent or downloading from YouTube is merely copying original 0 and 1 to my computer. What am I exactly stealing?

Looking at Wikipedia:

In the general definition above, the Supreme Court of Canada has construed "anything" very broadly, stating that it is not restricted to tangibles, but includes intangibles. To be the subject of theft it must, however:
1. be property of some sort;
2. be property capable of beingtaken (therefore intangibles are excluded); or converted (and may be an intangible);taken or converted in a way that deprives the owner of his/her proprietary interest in some way.

So when I am downloading, what exactly am I taken? Or what I am converted? I don't thinking making copy of some short is converting.

So is downloading or torrenting is theft? Hell no.

To answer, If I go to store and taking stuff without getting owner's constent, it is theft. Downloading or streaming music or movie is not.

By the way, it is legal here in Canada to watching any movie or TV shows from sites like prime wire.

Never will give my single penny to paid subscription services.

Thanks
According to the definition "be property capable of being taken (therefore intangibles are excluded); or converted (and may be an intangible);taken or converted in a way that deprives the owner of his/her proprietary interest in some way." - It's right there: "taken or converted in a way that deprives the owner of his/her proprietary interest in some way." The proprietary interest is their lawfully protected IP rights (Intellectual Property). "Converted (and may be an intangible)." Making a copy is, as you put it, an intangible file being converted from one location to another.

As I stated in a previous post Teddy, you are the definition of part p.p.p.s:

One thing very few people here seem to understand is the actual math involved. As an artist that owns their own music, I can explain how the math would work out. So here we go:

A stream is worth anywhere from about $0.00071 (on the low end free accounts) to about $0.0126 (on the upper end paid premium accounts, it can be even higher on hi-def tiers) - on average for the complete stream. Some paid accounts pay more. Out of that amount, roughly 70% goes to the entity that owns the master rights of the recording and roughly 30% gets divided up between writers, publishers, mechanicals and performers.

Apple's proposal to simplify this is somewhat good for just one entity, and a whole hell of a lot bad for everyone else. Here's why:

On the low end of a stream - the current rate would pay about $0.01 per 100 streams. Obviously it would be a hell of a lot better if it was the $0.091 Apple currently proposes - and a freemium tier remained. But at 9x that, I can't imagine a freemium tier could remain, unless they did way more advertising in the playlists.

On the high end of a stream - the current rate would pay about $0.188 per 100 streams. Obviously the $0.091 Apple Currently proposes would be horrendously bad. Artists (writers/publishers) et al would be getting roughly slightly less than half as much as they currently do from streaming, which technically isn't all that much as it is. But to reduce this to half as much is highway robbery.

This all comes down to Apple making an attempt to get rid of free tiers and lining their own pockets at the same time. However, if this proposal were accepted, this would ruin how much artists would make from Premium tiers. Which is currently more than the proposed rate Apple is suggesting, by 2x as much.

Thus this proposal benefits one entity - Apple. It will not benefit artists in any way if it gets everyone to go to Premium accounts and then the rate ends up going down to $0.091 for 100 streams (that's a whole lot of bad)!! Mind you that $0.091 gets divided in half, where 50% goes to the writer(s) involved and 50% goes to the publisher(s) involved.

Personally, I hope the CRB does not implement this concept. Its a terrible idea. Not to mention, streaming services currently enjoy a discounted royalty rate as it is. What the CRB really needs to do is to do away with the discounted streaming royalty rate.

All that being written, if you're still here and wanting to hear what a non-signed artist can be like on Spotify (its a pop song) - https://open.spotify.com/track/6JmOLaD6hqXLMq872fTw7N Enjoy!

p.s. - I switched from Apple Music to Spotify for a couple of reasons. 1. Spotify is more transparent about how they pay. 2. Spotify has an easier interface to deal with. 3. Their playlists update more frequently and tend to play better selections than Apple Music's. (1 is a fact. 2 & 3 are my opinion).

p.p.s. - For high def tiers (ala things like Tidal or Deezer) it goes up even more. The amount can go as high as $1.21 for 100 streams for the rate. Now compare that to $0.091 that Apple proposes and Apple starts to look very bad.

p.p.p.s - If you're torrenting music and not using something like Spotify's free tier, you're an asshat. Why? Because 1. I didn't grant you the right to take my music for free. 2. End of story. Nothing you say, unless I specifically gave you a copy, is valid. Its uncool from a moral standpoint. Oh, and its illegal by law. Would I sue you? Not likely. But flaunting your torrenting nature makes you a dick in the eyes of people who create entertainment for a living.
 
  • Like
Reactions: CarlJ and OTACORB
Well the way I see it, is unless you are on the board of directors running a global multi million user subscription music streaming business, how can anyone take you seriously when you attempt to proclaim I know exactly what Spotify needs to do here....
If you knew what Spotify needed to do you wouldn't be typing it on an internet forum, you would be working for Spotify doing it.

So yes it is appologising for Apples dirty business tactics, and the poster ignored my comment on the obvious of the differences in app features on different platforms.

I do recall doom and gloom proclaimed about Netflix, people went around proclaiming it was loosing money and would go into receivership, it's business plan didn't work and even investors dumped their stock. And we all can see what happened to that story...

Didn't Netflix have to raise their prices to start making money? And doesn't Netflix lack the free option that is causing Spotify to lose money? And doesn't Netflix have an option to pay through the app where it adds the 30%?
 
According to the definition "be property capable of being taken (therefore intangibles are excluded); or converted (and may be an intangible);taken or converted in a way that deprives the owner of his/her proprietary interest in some way." - It's right there: "taken or converted in a way that deprives the owner of his/her proprietary interest in some way." The proprietary interest is their lawfully protected IP rights (Intellectual Property). "Converted (and may be an intangible)." Making a copy is, as you put it, an intangible file being converted from one location to another.

As I stated in a previous post Teddy, you are the definition of part p.p.p.s:

Sorry. Making a copy is not converted from one location to other. It is simply merely copy. Originally bits 0 and 1 are stayed in its original place.

Since I did not take original, so how can you make such claim that I am stealing?

I did not steal original their original legal IP. Do they loss IP in the process of me making a copy? No. They still retain the IP. So no IP is stolen.

Again, making copy is not equals to stealing. I did not steal anything. I am merely making a copy.

If I go to your house, making a copy of your desk, then take the copy away. Does that count as steal? No. Because your desktop is still there. So is making copy of digital file.

P.S. There is nothing wrong to making a copy of a digital file and therefore, there is nothing wrong for me to downloading music from torrent or streaming free music and movies. It is shame that you could not find way to save money and get free stuff. If I can get stuff for free not illegally, I won't pay. So free music stream, free movie and tv show streaming (I don't care if streaming site is authorized or not).
 
Last edited:
Sorry. Making a copy is not converted from one location to other. It is simply merely copy. Originally bits 0 and 1 are stayed in its original place.

Since I did not take original, so how can you make such claim that I am stealing?

I did not steal original their original legal IP. Do they loss IP in the process of me making a copy? No. They still retain the IP. So no IP is stolen.

Again, making copy is not equals to stealing. I did not steal anything. I am merely making a copy.

If I go to your house, making a copy of your desk, then take the copy away. Does that count as steal? No. Because your desktop is still there. So is making copy of digital file.

P.S. There is nothing wrong to making a copy of a digital file and therefore, there is nothing wrong for me to downloading music from torrent or streaming free music and movies. It is shame that you could not find way to save money and get free stuff. If I can get stuff for free not illegally, I won't pay. So free music stream, free movie and tv show streaming (I don't care if streaming site is authorized or not).

Always funny to hear thieves try to justify their actions. Just proves they know they're wrong, so they try to come up with any rationalization they can so they don't feel bad about being a low-life thief.
 
Always funny to hear thieves try to justify their actions. Just proves they know they're wrong, so they try to come up with any rationalization they can so they don't feel bad about being a low-life thief.

I don't feel bad on downloading music and movie. It is completely normal and not illegal. I feel bad for people who spend money on music and movie.

It is you guys accusing us who downloading music and movie are theft. It is complete false accusations and I do not take it. I am proud that I don't waste my money on entertainment
 
I don't feel bad on downloading music and movie. It is completely normal and not illegal. I feel bad for people who spend money on music and movie.

The sheer number of posts you made on this topic shows it DOES affect you. Otherwise there'd be no need for you to defend it so rigorously. Nobody believes you for a second.
 
  • Like
Reactions: CarlJ and OTACORB
I don't feel bad on downloading music and movie. It is completely normal and not illegal. I feel bad for people who spend money on music and movie.

It is you guys accusing us who downloading music and movie are theft. It is complete false accusations and I do not take it. I am proud that I don't waste my money on entertainment

If you don't think entertainment is worth money, you don't deserve it.
 
Sorry. Making a copy is not converted from one location to other. It is simply merely copy. Originally bits 0 and 1 are stayed in its original place.

Since I did not take original, so how can you make such claim that I am stealing?
If you truly believe this, you'll have no problem sharing your bank account numbers and passwords with us. We only ask for a mere copy...
 
Apple wants to help artists? If I stream a song by an artist 3 or 4 times a day for a month, that artist gets paid 9.1 cents ($0.091, Apple's proposal) for that month from me. Apple's cut is $3.00, being the gatekeeper is a good job.
 
Retarded when Microsoft pulled these stunts - it is retarded now that apple doing it. Just a sign of a company that thinks it cant compete.
 
Sorry. Making a copy is not converted from one location to other. It is simply merely copy. Originally bits 0 and 1 are stayed in its original place.

Since I did not take original, so how can you make such claim that I am stealing?

I did not steal original their original legal IP. Do they loss IP in the process of me making a copy? No. They still retain the IP. So no IP is stolen.

Again, making copy is not equals to stealing. I did not steal anything. I am merely making a copy.

If I go to your house, making a copy of your desk, then take the copy away. Does that count as steal? No. Because your desktop is still there. So is making copy of digital file.

P.S. There is nothing wrong to making a copy of a digital file and therefore, there is nothing wrong for me to downloading music from torrent or streaming free music and movies. It is shame that you could not find way to save money and get free stuff. If I can get stuff for free not illegally, I won't pay. So free music stream, free movie and tv show streaming (I don't care if streaming site is authorized or not).
Your ignorance is astounding.

How about sending me your banking information? I only want to transfer some 1s and 0s from your account to my account. You're cool with that right? You'd only be copying your info to me and I'd only be making a copy of your account in mine.
 
Apple wants to help artists? If I stream a song by an artist 3 or 4 times a day for a month, that artist gets paid 9.1 cents ($0.091, Apple's proposal) for that month from me. Apple's cut is $3.00, being the gatekeeper is a good job.

How convenient you forget that $7.10-$7.30 of your monthly subscription fee goes to the music industry ($2.70-$2.90 goes to Apple, not the $3.00 you mentioned), where it THEN gets divided up amongst publishers, artists, producers and songwriters according to a complex set of rules that Apple didn't invent.

You're also completely wrong about that 9.1 cents going to the artist. It's a songwriter royalty, nothing more, nothing less.

Perhaps you should have read up on how this works before commenting.
 
  • Like
Reactions: CarlJ and OTACORB
I don't cheat on my exam. It is wrong clearly. But downloading music is from YouTube and torrent site is not wrong, it is just other way to get music.

I am not paying for music regardless what you say. I will try to use Google Music, QQ music or any free streaming method first, then restore to old fashion torrenting.

FREE IS THE KING AND NOTHING BEATS FREE. I WILL TRY TO GET STUFFS FOR FREE FIRST.
It sounds good until what you're doing or the service you are selling is free. Be careful what you ask for. It may not work out the way you think.
 
Your ignorance is astounding.

How about sending me your banking information? I only want to transfer some 1s and 0s from your account to my account. You're cool with that right? You'd only be copying your info to me and I'd only be making a copy of your account in mine.

Sure... Why not. Though I don't usually put much money in back accout. Majority of my money is sitting on mutual funds and stock market. So lots of them aren't accessible.

You can access via PM.
[doublepost=1468790546][/doublepost]
If you don't think entertainment is worth money, you don't deserve it.

Don't care. I don't pay...I enjoy entertainment just as much as you do. But I never pay.

I stream movies and tv shows online with ad blocker, website like prime wire. I will never pay for Netflix or Hulu.

I stream music from Google Music and other free source. Will never pay for Google Music.

I only go to movie theatre when i get free movie tickets.

Thanks.
 
What you are saying is your own conjecture but it's not necessarily the case.
Applies equally well to everything you've said. Or do you secretly own and run Google and Spotify?
There are examples where an app store can exist along side with 3rd party payments, and the app store is not going away like you are suggesting. For example the Google play store.
Google's business is not hardware and operating systems, like Apple's is. Google's business is getting as many people as possible to look at ads provided by Google to customers demographically cataloged and served up by Google. Apple's customers are people who buy phones. Google's customers are advertisers. Apple and Google are coming to the "app store ownership" role from very different sides with different needs and goals. Is this that hard to understand?
You think that 30% premium being passed to customer has no impact on subscriptions and the industry? Of course it does, Apple is being another fat pig taking a cut off the backs of artists and Spotify by passing the premium onto customers is making subscriptions 30% more expensive which in turn alienates a good amount subscribers and represents lost royalties for artists.
Show me all the news stories (I'm sure there must be plenty, since you keep putting all the blame on Apple) where Apple put a gun to Spotify's head and ordered them to: a) put an app in Apple's App Store, and b) offer subscriptions in the app. You're calling Apple a fat pig for DOING EXACTLY WHAT WAS STATED IN THE AGREEMENTS THAT SPOTIFY AGREED TO when Spotify chose to put an app in the store - they knew exactly what they were getting into, and they dragged the artists along with them. Spotify stood in front of a long-existing wall, looked at the wall, examined the wall, and then bashed their head repeatedly against the wall, and you're blaming... the wall? and not Spotify?

You say Apple is "taking a cut off the backs of artists" - but it is Spotify who doesn't care about the artists - they're consistently on the low end of the scale for streaming payments to artists - Spotify wants to pay the artists as little as they possibly can. Spotify chose to put an app into Apple's App Store, knowing full well, ahead of time, what the percentages were. And they stupidly got themselves into a bad situation that was easy to foresee (you can't give something away and "make it up on volume"), and yet you keep blaming Apple for Spotify's mistakes.

Spotify could easily have subscription signups only on their website (where they keep all the money, minus what goes to the credit card companies) and advertise the bejeezus out of that, all over the web, on TV, in print media, with people standing on street corners waving signs, etc. - the only place they can't advertise that is in the app itself, per agreements they made when they signed up to develop an app for the App Store - this is completely reasonable: if you open a new restaurant, do you expect to be able to put up signs advertising your restaurant inside other restaurants? No - every business would take exception to that.

If you sold, say, cookies, you could go to a local store and give them signs saying, "mmm, these cookies sure are delicious, you should buy some", hoping they'd display them around the store - good for you, good for the store. How do you think the same store would respond if you gave them signs saying, "mmm, these cookies sure are delicious, you should go across the street to some other store and buy some". Think any stores would put your signs up then? That's exactly what Spotify wanted to do with advertising their website subscriptions inside the app they put in Apple's App Store. It's not just unrealistic, it's rude. It's boorish behavior.

Here's a novel idea - Spotify's big problem is getting users in its "free tier" (which, if I understand correctly, is supported by audio advertisements interspersed with the songs), to convert over to the paid tiers, where Spotify will get actual real money from them. Spotify should advertise on its own service - advertise "visit our website spotify.com to subscribe to Spotify for $X per month and get Y and Z benefits" - right there in its own audio stream. As a bonus, since Spotify created and runs the Spotify service, they don't have to charge themselves to advertise on their own service (just the way Apple, who created the entire iPhone & App Store ecosystem, doesn't have to charge themselves to have apps in their own App Store). And it isn't an advertisement built into the app, so it ought to satisfy Apple's restrictions on in-app advertisements.
 
Don't care. I don't pay...I enjoy entertainment just as much as you do. But I never pay.

I stream movies and tv shows online with ad blocker, website like prime wire.
So, by your own admission, you're a parasite with little in the way of conscience or morals. Also, you don't like Apple or its products. Why, exactly, are you hanging out here?
[doublepost=1468791555][/doublepost]
Kill the competition off, then put in a new cheaper proposal to the government and make gigabillions.
Nice summary. And I think the words "the" and "new" are actually right. The rest is entirely wrong. But nice try.
[doublepost=1468792213][/doublepost]
I don't feel bad on downloading music and movie. It is completely normal and not illegal. I feel bad for people who spend money on music and movie.
...
I am proud that I don't waste my money on entertainment
Uh, huh. And say everyone switches to not paying for movies, like you recommend. Do you expect any new movies will get made, once the studios find that they spent $100 million making a film and got zero money back? Your way is unsustainable. Can you not understand this? No, sorry, I forgot, you just don't care, as long as you have your supply of "free stuff", the rest of the world can go to hell, right?
[doublepost=1468792561][/doublepost]
Sure... Why not. Though I don't usually put much money in back accout. Majority of my money is sitting on mutual funds and stock market. So lots of them aren't accessible.

You can access via PM.
Why would you suggest someone contact you via Private Message? Post your banking website and username and password along with the websites, usernames and passwords for your various investment accounts. Post it all right here in this thread. We only want to make a copy of the 1's and 0's.

Or does information have a value?
[doublepost=1468792686][/doublepost]
Bravo CarlJ, but you are wasting your time. You are working with someone that has no ability whatsoever to accept reasoning. He is right and in this case Apple is wrong no matter what! You know the old saying ignorance is bliss! Nuff Said! Good job on this post though! THANKS!
I know. Sigh. It's like trying to explain something to a wall. It doesn't matter how carefully you explain it, the wall simply isn't capable of understanding. I'll probably give up on it.
 
Last edited:
So, by your own admission, you're a parasite with little in the way of conscience or morals. Also, you don't like Apple or its products. Why, exactly, are you hanging out here?
[doublepost=1468791555][/doublepost]
Nice summary. And I think the words "the" and "new" are actually right. The rest is entirely wrong. But nice try.
[doublepost=1468792213][/doublepost]
Uh, huh. And say everyone switches to not paying for movies, like you recommend. Do you expect any new movies will get made, once the studios find that they spent $100 million making a film and got zero money back? Your way is unsustainable. Can you not understand this? No, sorry, I forgot, you just don't care, as long as you have your supply of "free stuff", the rest of the world can go to hell, right?


Movie studio has many way to make money.

For starter: movie studio always looking for sponsorships. Mulitple sponsorships will help them finance the film.

Second: Add advertisements into the movie. Lots of opportunities, for example: actor using certain cellphone. Put up a banner on the building, actor or actress dress certain brand clothes, they drive one brand cars.

Third: Selling products that related to the movie. Like figures, dolls etc

Take Japanese anime Indians example: lots of animes aren't selling much disc. Anime studio are using sponsors, ads, anime by products, free streaming sites to get revenue. Most people streaming animes free from sites like kissanime, crunchyroll.

In this day and age, where free streaming is avilable everywhere, movie studio and artist need find other way to make money.

Sorry, if they cannot monetize their work other than selling movie ticket or buy DVDs, then those works are just junks.

And sorry, no matter what you or other say, I will not pay.
 
Last edited:
Apple's suggested rate is 9.1 cents per 100 plays, which would make the songwriting royalties for 100 streams equal to the royalties for a single song download.

So, besides Apple, who has been receiving the remaining $1.20 that Apple charged per song purchase? No wonder artists are crying foul and trying to eliminate some of them middlemen.
 
  • Like
Reactions: macfacts
Why would you suggest someone contact you via Private Message? Post your banking website and username and password along with the websites, usernames and passwords for your various investment accounts. Post it all right here in this thread. We only want to make a copy of the 1's and 0's.

Or does information have a value?

Even if I posted my banking information public, how do you know I am not providing information that belongs to other? Or how do you vertify my information.

I could go online just generate a random bank account number and credit card number.

It is so pointless and stupid.

By the way, it is so easily to apply bank account using false information now days. All you need is some fake IDs. You can open bank account online in few minutes. I can easily do that. And what is point to get that.
 
Of course I understand how it works, and I'm saying the 30% cut is a rip off.

It's 15%, and Spotify are free to omit the ability to sign up in-app if they don't like the terms. Part of in-app subscriptions is that you get billed by Apple for all of them and can manage them from the AppStore UI. Its all part of how the feature works.
 
  • Like
Reactions: OTACORB
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.