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Apple's Newest Mac Pro Turns Five Years Old Today

Zdigital2015 said:
At some point, PCIe v4.0 (or 5.0, depending on how you read the tea leaves), is going to be a thing. Given that it increases bandwidth 2x over PCIe v3.0, I suspect that once a version of Thunderbolt that runs over PCIe v4.0 is released (not anytime soon), all of these complaints tend to just wither away. Apple runs mobile GPUs at x8 in its 15" MacBook Pros and has for years. I am somewhat surprised that a dual-cable x8 solution using 2 Thunderbolt port (1 from each controller) has not surfaced, unless the fundamental design of Thunderbolt makes this implausible. IANAEE, so I would defer to someone who is more qualified to talk about the subject. Given the complex nature of what a GPU does, I supposed splitting the signal at one end and rejoining at another is a particularly insane and very tiny use-case, regardless.

So, once PCIe v4.0 is supported and shipping, it makes things a bit easier from a bandwidth perspective once a successor to Thunderbolt 3 is released. The timeframe is the sticky subject now.

I do not think everyone is hung up on internal expansion, but there are quite a few use cases where it is less than desirable. One fairly important use case exists in the creative community. For many, the 2006-2012 Mac Pro (but especially the 2009-2012 models), made it easy to have this super powerful computer complete with storage, DRAM, GPU, any special case PCIe cards, etc. completely self-contained and easily, quickly packable into a single Pelican hard case that could be shipped anywhere in the world, and as long as it arrived, you were golden. Whether you are a musician, a film maker, a photographer or an engineer arriving onsite to work on something that needed you there, you had the horsepower to pull off the job and not try to keep track of more than one or two boxes, the Mac Pro and the monitor you were using. In all but the most remote locations, you can usually scrounge up a USB keyboard and a mouse, although if you forgot to pack it with the Mac Pro, you need a timeout. A monitor is harder, but still, shipping multiple boxes can result in exponential stress if one of those external items is lost. Not to impugn logistics and shipping people around the world, but I swear the more boxes you add in a single shipment, the hairier things get.

Truth be told, I have had my share of expandable Macs dating back to 1991 and I rarely ever needed to install a NuBus, PCI, AGP or PCIe card in any of them. I moved to an iMac and MacBook Pro combo and have not needed anything more powerful than a Core i7, but if you do need those cores AND an NVIDIA card, and a 10Gbps Ethernet card and, say, a Red Rocket card or a SAS PCIe card, after a while it gets a little disheartening to see how much Apple really does not seem to care about you as a user and a customer.

Apple's self imposed exile from the traditional tower form factor gets old...none of the Pros who want would argue that it is an old idea, but none of what Apple has proposed as an alternative has shown them something fundamentally better. It really just shows that Apple thinks it knows what these customers want, but do not.

I honestly think the current 2013 Mac Pro chassis would have made more sense as a consumer desktop companion to the 27" iMac or as a desktop companion to a Late 2013 Mac Pro tower for those Pro users who need more cores, DRAM and GPU power, but in a smaller package than the Pro users who need an all you can eat buffet style of computer.

The flip side being...how much time and engineering that would have taken at the expense of the iPhone, iPad, Apple Watch, AppleTV, MacBook Pro, iMac, MacBook Air, MacBook, et al. that collectively stomp into the ground the revenue generated by Mac Pro sales. Examining it that way, the Pro user will lose every single time, which is a shame, but it is business. Hoping 2019 gives the Pros out there what they are hoping for after a 5 year drought.
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Seems PCIe 4x (TB3) is enough for this generation cards to handle.
https://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/NVIDIA/GeForce_GTX_1080_PCI_Express_Scaling/24.html
4% performance hit? I'll take it.
Don't tell me Radeon 560x in 2018 needs it. The GPU in the MBP chokes from heat long before it uses up 4x lanes.

The problem is also that 2008 computing users had roughly similar needs; but right now, audio, musician needs differ to begin with, video, photography. One size doesn't fit all anymore. Creative computing has specialised needs for specialised hardware, a video colour grader will have a completely different rig than an audio engineer, in 2008, maybe not.
 
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Ploki said:
Seems PCIe 4x (TB3) is enough for this generation cards to handle.
https://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/NVIDIA/GeForce_GTX_1080_PCI_Express_Scaling/24.html
4% performance hit? I'll take it.
Don't tell me Radeon 560x in 2018 needs it. The GPU in the MBP chokes from heat long before it uses up 4x lanes.

The problem is also that 2008 computing users had roughly similar needs; but right now, audio, musician needs differ to begin with, video, photography. One size doesn't fit all anymore. Creative computing has specialised needs for specialised hardware, a video colour grader will have a completely different rig than an audio engineer, in 2008, maybe not.
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What 4% hit are you referring. Isn't the difference at least 17% (the 4x rate compared to the highest rate)?
 
Ploki said:
Thunderbolt port is like having a PCIe 3.0 x4 port. Why is that not legit?
You could argue that you want a PCIe 3.0 x16 port. So. Thunderbolt 3 Pro. :D


"true expansion" "internal expansion"

jeez, I built my own PCs, but its 2018. Having an external set of hardware on which you can attach any barebone brains of machine is super fun and super easy to upgrade/swap. Why is everyone so hung up on internal expansion still?
And in any case, if its really "pro" its hidden somewhere in a cooled machine room. Having internal expansion or cable makes no difference.
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The main thing is the built-in interfaces on the Mac Pro 2013 are out of date. No 10G USB, no Thunderbolt 3, no Bluetooth 5, no latest WiFi, no 10G Ethernet. The GPU's are 5 years old and weren't exactly cutting edge back then. There is no way to add these technologies to that machine. Some can be added with dongles and hubs.

Contrast this with a 2012 or older Mac Pro, all of that can be taken care of with a quick PCIe card (except for Thunderbolt 3 I guess but a card may exist to add that, I haven't looked). No external boxes, no cables everywhere, no power bricks hanging off your surge protector. Easy.
 
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brofkand said:
The main thing is the built-in interfaces on the Mac Pro 2013 are out of date. No USB-C, no Thunderbolt 3, no Bluetooth 5, no latest WiFi, no 10G Ethernet. The GPU's are 5 years old and weren't exactly cutting edge back then. There is no way to add these technologies to that machine. Some can be added with dongles and hubs.

Contrast this with a 2012 or older Mac Pro, all of that can be taken care of with a quick PCIe card (except for Thunderbolt 3 I guess but a card may exist to add that, I haven't looked). No external boxes, no cables everywhere, no power bricks hanging off your surge protector. Easy.
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I was replying to somebody who claimed Thunderbolt is not "modular" or "real expansion". I'm aware of 2013 lack of refresh.
I am aware that they can't be added.

But they can't be added to 2012 effectively either:
- A card for TB3 cannot possibly exist because Mac Pro has PCIe 2.0 and TB3 works over PCIe 3.0.
- Drive bays are cramped by the SATA3.
- PCIe x16 is used by at least one GPU, so you have not much left in terms of expandability. (one x16 slot and two pcie 2.0 x4 slots)
- Given that these machines are 1 year apart...trashcan slays.

I had a 2008 Mac Pro... It was also heavy as **** and was a power hog, I can't wait to get a mini, and if there was a sensible Mac Pro trashcan solution (high cpu core count and single GPU), I'd probably get that as well.
 
crsh1976 said:
It's getting pushed because they keep saying it's due "next year". We've been hearing about this fabled Mac Pro since 2017 as due to make an appearance in 2018, then in 2018 it's unsurprisingly due in 2019.

Frankly, if they actually gave a damn, this thing would already be out. It's not like Apple doesn't have the money for proper R&D, they just chose to not prioritize pros.
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You made a definitive statement. Ok, your turn: Prove it.
[doublepost=1545259656][/doublepost]
Manzanito said:
You know why? Because it works.
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And that automatically means there isn't a better way?

Cars had manual chokes and tires with tubes for a long, long time.

Then, someone (don't know who) came out with an automatic choke, and tubeless tires.

Guess what? They were better than what everyone else continued to do (at least for a while) "because it works".

I'm terrible at analogies, but you get the point.
[doublepost=1545259931][/doublepost]
ChrisMoBro said:
But it hasn’t always been like this. I have always purchased their pro models but after seeing the stupid prices of the new Mac mini and the fact they’ve just bumped up all the prices it’s going to be ridiculously overpriced.
[doublepost=1545238320][/doublepost]
I made the switch to Windows a few years ago and I couldn’t be happy. Sure, I miss macOS but I’d much rather get more power for my money and then have money left over.
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You DO realize, of course, that, even giving you a pass on the missed word "more" (Freudian Slip???), the terms "...I couldn't be [more] happy" and "Sure I miss macOS..." are quite the oxymoron, right?

So, enjoy your Windows 10, Spyware Edition LIFETIME SUBSCRIPTION. Not quite yet; but you KNOW it's coming...
 
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brofkand said:
Look at what they've released since. Notebook keyboards that are unreliable, notebooks and desktops that don't have a thermal solution to support the chips they employ, features added on to justify increased prices, less expandability, and an increasingly buggy OS. I have very little optimism that Apple has any idea what to do for true Pro Mac users anymore, since those users can't be swayed by fashion.
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Even if all of that is true, it is not germane to a discussion about a non-cost-sensitive product like the Mac Pro.
[doublepost=1545261580][/doublepost]
Lone Deranger said:
Oooh goodie! That old retort. Probably the weakest response in the endlessly regurgitated arsenal of the Apple Defense League.
Keep it up and maybe, some day you'll have earned enough brownie points to get some pink Apple stickers. :D
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Ya know, most cliches exist because there is a grain of truth to them.
 
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MacsRuleOthersDrool said:
Even if all of that is true, it is not germane to a discussion about a non-cost-sensitive product like the Mac Pro.
[doublepost=1545261580][/doublepost]
Ya know, most cliches exist because there is a grain of truth to them.
Click to expand...

Not cost sensitive, huh? No idea why Phil Schiller spent several minutes comparing the cost of a Mac Pro and a Dell or HP workstation during the keynote, then.
 
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MacsRuleOthersDrool said:
[doublepost=1545259656][/doublepost]
And that automatically means there isn't a better way?

Cars had manual chokes and tires with tubes for a long, long time.

Then, someone (don't know who) came out with an automatic choke, and tubeless tires.

Guess what? They were better than what everyone else continued to do (at least for a while) "because it works".

I'm terrible at analogies, but you get the point.
[doublepost=1545259931][/doublepost]
Click to expand...
The nMP is not my definition of better. If you change something to improve it, I’m all for it. What apple did to the mac pro is just a disgrace.

To add insult to injury, they let the thing rot for five years. Phil claimed it was the mac pro for the next ten years and boy, was the guy determined to keep his promise!

So their response has been:

  • Hold two meetings to discuss how great the vwMP will be once the all star team they’ve gathered finishes understanding the real needs of pros, establish a profound connection with their arts and decipher the smell of clouds.
  • Raise the specs of the base configuration of the trashcan, but for the rest they keep selling 2012 technology (the mid range graphics cards they are passing as firepros, for instance) at a premium in 2018. Actually, in some countries the thing is more expensive than when it was introduced.
  • They release a pro focused iMac and a pro focused mac mini. Gee, that’s great. Don’t rush the pro focused mac pro, it’s only been 8 years since the last meaningful refresh for the customers that aren’t covered by the products you are already selling.
So maybe there’s a better way, but it sure doesn’t seem to be the way apple is handling this whole situation.
 
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brofkand said:
You may be right, but he spent several minutes justifying the price - not just comparing. Watch the keynote, I watched it live and I'm sure it's available on YouTube.
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tbh he also said 6 years ago that wireless charging is stupid.
Man doesn't do everything right
 
MacsRuleOthersDrool said:
You made a definitive statement. Ok, your turn: Prove it.
[doublepost=1545259656][/doublepost]
And that automatically means there isn't a better way?

Cars had manual chokes and tires with tubes for a long, long time.

Then, someone (don't know who) came out with an automatic choke, and tubeless tires.

Guess what? They were better than what everyone else continued to do (at least for a while) "because it works".

I'm terrible at analogies, but you get the point.
[doublepost=1545259931][/doublepost]
You DO realize, of course, that, even giving you a pass on the missed word "more" (Freudian Slip???), the terms "...I couldn't be [more] happy" and "Sure I miss macOS..." are quite the oxymoron, right?

So, enjoy your Windows 10, Spyware Edition LIFETIME SUBSCRIPTION. Not quite yet; but you KNOW it's coming...
Click to expand...
Wow, I think someone’s a bit defensive. My typo was down to lack of sleep because of my 6 month old daughter but read into it what you like.

Sorry should I have given an in-depth analysis as to why I miss elements of macOS but also justify to some fanboy why I’m happy using Windows 10? You carry on living your life spending thousands extra on outdated components dressed up in slick hardware whilst I spend half the amount and get double the performance.
 
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I quite like my 2013 trashcan, works great still with Mojave and huge Logic sessions. It’s portability ended up being a godsend compared to the older cheese-grater, traveling to work in different places I can put it and a HDD enclosure in a carry on bag easily- the cheese-grater has to go in a huge box.

It’s quiet too which is great in the studio.

Laptops don’t have enough power yet afraid.
 
I am curious what they're going to come out with. If you're building a PC box right now, you can put together an AMD Threadripper build with all solid state, 64GB of RAM, for a base cost of ~$2,000 without counting the graphics card. The graphics card(s) is/are the wild card, of course. Apple will likely throw in overclocked Radeon Vega cards, again, making the thing technically a "bargain" if they start at $2,999.

But Mac build probably won't be a Threadripper, but Intel. My 2¢ is that this is not really a feature in 2019.
 
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Dozer_Zaibatsu said:
I am curious what they're going to come out with. If you're building a PC box right now, you can put together an AMD Threadripper build with all solid state, 64GB of RAM, for a base cost of ~$2,000 without counting the graphics card. The graphics card(s) is/are the wild card, of course. Apple will likely throw in overclocked Radeon Vega cards, again, making the thing technically a "bargain" if they start at $2,999.

But Mac build probably won't be a Threadripper, but Intel. My 2¢ is that this is not really a feature in 2019.
Click to expand...

People really need to stop comparing spec for spec with Apple products. It really doesn’t work that way.
 
A lot of creatives jumped ship 3-5 years ago after they watched what PCs could do in speed, expandability, upgradability and price. BUT many of those same creatives are ready to upgrade and might jump into a Mac if the new Pro delivers.

I'm holding out hope, but have some worries that Apple's new Pro may either be another gimmick like the trash can or be a retrenchment to the cheese grater-type tower to which customers will then ask, "We waited forever for this?"

Pros like nice gear, but primarily they want to run MacOS as fast and effectively as possible. For five years Apple's forgotten that. Really would like to gladly give them my money in 2019.
 
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