Apple's notebooks are not loaded with peripherals

[seb-opp]

When I switched to mac I considered the same thing, mainly about card readers. But after getting one, I realised I didnt need a card reader, Its actually much simpler to plug the camera into USB, dont have to fiddle with removing the memory card. I actually think card readers are totally pointless now.

Displayport is supposedly a rival to HDMI, so that problem is solved. You can get a Displayport to HDMI adapter if you need it.

Personally I think a tuner on a laptop is pointless because I can only really see two places to use it; In a hotel or at home. You would have a proper tv in both those places. Anywhere else, you would need to carry an arial around, who would do that.

 

[Tosser]

When I switched to mac I considered the same thing, mainly about card readers. But after getting one, I realised I didnt need a card reader, Its actually much simpler to plug the camera into USB, dont have to fiddle with removing the memory card. I actually think card readers are totally pointless now.

This is the reason I really bemoan the "influx" of members from the new-to-Mac iPod Crowd.

Apparently, they couldn't care less about performance, and figure that putting a card in a computer is "fiddling", while having no qualms with having to wait for the slow-as-mollases camera-to-computer transfer over USB. Of course, this matters little if all they ever copy is two or three jpegs from a 2MP camera.

Displayport is supposedly a rival to HDMI, so that problem is solved. You can get a Displayport to HDMI adapter if you need it.

Ah, yes, isn't that the story with just about any of the shortcomings? Seemingly, "Get an adaptor" and "I don't use XX, so there's no point in having it" is all we hear these days.

Personally I think a tuner on a laptop is pointless because I can only really see two places to use it; In a hotel or at home. You would have a proper tv in both those places. Anywhere else, you would need to carry an arial around, who would do that.

This I would agree with. Although, I could foresee someone wanting to watch telly in their boat or RV, but as that is usually quite a bit larger than an ordinary daypack, for once I can see how "those people" should invest in an adaptor (and proper aerial, for that matter).

 

[darienphoenix]

How is a card reader or fw port going to add extra bulk. Those two things are tiny. I could see maybe a tv tuner adding a little extra bulk but a card reader or fw port would not.

I would have liked a card reader slot but it didn't influence my decision to buy my mb. It just would have been a very convient feature for me especially since I will be doing a lot of traveling other the next couple years.

The inside of a Macbook isn't full of space, you know. There literally isn't any more room for ports on the motherboard on the left hand side.

The only alternative is to do what they used to do and split the motherboard in two with a ribbon between the two halves, but this is nowhere near as neat a solution as the current one. So what, they don't have your favourite port. Personally, I'll cope.

Displayport is supposedly a rival to HDMI, so that problem is solved. You can get a Displayport to HDMI adapter if you need it.

Displayport is better than HDMI, as HDMI is resolution limited.

Ah, yes, isn't that the story with just about any of the shortcomings? Seemingly, "Get an adaptor" and "I don't use XX, so there's no point in having it" is all we hear these days.

If Apple put in every port/interface which people might use, their laptops would look like Dells.

This is a pointless criticism. To use a ridiculously bad analogy, it's like criticising a Ferarri for having a small amount of luggage space and using too much fuel. You're missing the point.

 

[iObama]

you want this?

You guys are such fanboys. I love how HP can come out with a slim laptop with a memory card reader, TV Tuner, and other nice features, but if Apple did it, it would weigh 17 pounds!

Do you seriously think Apple couldn't design a laptop that was worth someone's money?

 

[Vulcan]

You guys are such fanboys. I love how HP can come out with a slim laptop with a memory card reader, TV Tuner, and other nice features, but if Apple did it, it would weigh 17 pounds!

Do you seriously think Apple couldn't design a laptop that was worth someone's money?

The sad thing is with Apple, if they can sell their MacBook right now for $1299, when comparable PC laptops are going for tons less, they aren't going to add tons of features to get sales they already would have regardless.

 

[Tosser]

The inside of a Macbook isn't full of space, you know. There literally isn't any more room for ports on the motherboard on the left hand side.

Sheesh, how do you guys think things are designed? Do you think the only thing they do is toss in another port or remove a port by cutting it out? If they wanted to, they could make space for it. Hell, even some netbooks have more ports. Take a look at the MBA: If they had designed it with just a few more ports from the get-go, it would have it. The MB: If they could do it on the previous gen MB, they surely could have done on it the Glassbook. The MBP: Are you trying to convince us there is no room for two fw ports on the 15 incher?

The only alternative is to do what they used to do and split the motherboard in two with a ribbon between the two halves, but this is nowhere near as neat a solution as the current one. So what, they don't have your favourite port. Personally, I'll cope.

Yup. I'm pretty sure you would "cope" even with a netbook or the MBA, just as long as it had an Apple on the lid.

If Apple put in every port/interface which people might use, their laptops would look like Dells.

Strawman.

This is a pointless criticism. To use a ridiculously bad analogy, it's like criticising a Ferarri for having a small amount of luggage space and using too much fuel. You're missing the point.

No it's not. If they wanted to, they could fit it. You Ferrari analogy is the one that is flawed: A ferraris shape (low, wide, etc.) is purpose driven. There is no purpose in nixing those ports. It truly IS all we hear constantly: "Get an adaptor", "deal with it", "bring an adaptor" "buy new audio recorders/video recorders/HDDs" ad nauseaum. It seems to be the most frequently used fanboy uttering around these parts.

 

[kasakka]

The lack of a FW400 port makes sense to me because it simplifies connections. Where Apple totally failed was not including an adapter so you can easily plug in that FW400 device. This is exactly the same thing they ****ed up with the mini-Displayport. I think it's ridiculous that you need separate adapters for DVI and VGA (why not just one that does both?) and even sillier that they don't come with the machine. I would understand not having some exotic mini-DP to S-Video adapter in there but what use is that Displayport if out of the box you can't connect it to anything at all?

Omitting the FW port from the Macbook sucked a lot though. They could've just had a FW400 there so if you want the faster FW800 you'd buy the Pro.

I don't see the lack of a card reader being a big deal. At least there are options like USB card readers or just using the camera cable.

 

[darienphoenix]

Yup. I'm pretty sure you would "cope" even with a netbook or the MBA, just as long as it had an Apple on the lid.

No.

I hate the Air, and until recently (when I actually tried using OS X) was a massive Windows-only man, due to being a gamer. Nice try painting me as a fanboy though. Do you do that to all the people you disagree with? Or only when discussing Macs?

People buy Mac laptops because they're sleek, sexy, run OS X, are minimalistic, and have very good build quality. If they want 4 USB ports, HDMI, VGA, a 5-in-1 card reader, firewire, and a fingerprint scanner, they don't buy a Mac.

It's that simple. You seem to have a problem with this though. If you don't like minimalistic design, could I suggest that Apple might not be the best source of tech gear?

 

[darienphoenix]

Where Apple totally failed was not including an adapter so you can easily plug in that FW400 device. This is exactly the same thing they ****ed up with the mini-Displayport. I think it's ridiculous that you need separate adapters for DVI and VGA (why not just one that does both?) and even sillier that they don't come with the machine. I would understand not having some exotic mini-DP to S-Video adapter in there but what use is that Displayport if out of the box you can't connect it to anything at all?

Agreed. I'd be happy to have $45 added to the price of a new Macbook if it just came with a damn MiniDVI-to-DVI or MiniDisplayPort-to-DVI adaptor (or whatever flavour-of-the-month interface Apple is using).

Having to buy them separately, and for inflated prices, is a pain. At least Mini DisplayPort has a chance of becoming a standardised interface, in which case we can happily buy 3rd party adaptors which don't run at a profit margin of 500%.

Don't even get me started on RAM prices at the Apple store. I'm sure we've all been there.

 

[Tosser]

No.

I hate the Air, and until recently (when I actually tried using OS X) was a massive Windows-only man, due to being a gamer. Nice try painting me as a fanboy though. Do you do that to all the people you disagree with? Or only when discussing Macs?

Neither. I only do that to people who seems to argue that less choice is better, and that it would take way too much effort and be a veritable impossibility to include a firewire port on a 13 inch macbook without it being 2 inches thick.

People buy Mac laptops because they're sleek, sexy, run OS X, are minimalistic, and have very good build quality. If they want 4 USB ports, HDMI, VGA, a 5-in-1 card reader, firewire, and a fingerprint scanner, they don't buy a Mac.

Speaking of nice tries. We're not talking about having that many ports at all. Although, I do believe you should take a look at the competition. Perhaps the fact that you used to be a "massive PC man" merely means you have switched from one "massive platform" to another, if you catch my drift.

It's that simple. You seem to have a problem with this though. If you don't like minimalistic design, could I suggest that Apple might not be the best source of tech gear?

Don't be ridiculous. I do like minimalistic design, but not the extend that it renders a tool useless.
I have been a Mac user for almost twenty years – I think I'm pretty much aware of why people buy Macs. However, I tend to disagree with the catering to the iPod Crowd that makes the productivity suffer.
As I implied: With your argumentation, we should all go for the MBA. You do realise, that many people don't choose a computer based on looks, right? The OS is great (when it's not buggy as have been the case with leopard), but removing ports and catering to the iPod Crowd who goes for looks and looks alone doesn't make up for lack of ports and whatnot.

 

[therealdt]

The sad thing is with Apple, if they can sell their MacBook right now for $1299, when comparable PC laptops are going for tons less, they aren't going to add tons of features to get sales they already would have regardless.

exactly. they have their niche and refuse to do otherwise. sure they can add features, but why when you don't have to. they sell, people buy and others complain. Apple is alright with me. The ultimate salesman.

 

[sreehemanth]

Look at the brighter side!

People buy Mac laptops because they're sleek, sexy, run OS X, are minimalistic, and have very good build quality.

I agree with what you say here.

If they want 4 USB ports, HDMI, VGA, a 5-in-1 card reader, firewire, and a fingerprint scanner, they don't buy a Mac.

The main reason I started this thread is to understand as people's perception on peripherals being added into the Mac notebooks.

In the way I see it, Apple will be a winner if it does include these or may be newer and cooler or other peripherals - without hurting any design issues, that is.

 

[minik]

Okay... 3 USB ports would be nice.

 

[Roba]

I don't know how true that is. I have bought Mac laptops in the past because the specs were right for me. If the specs and hardware are not right for me then no sale. I won't put up with not having stuff that i need.

I am not talking about you but some people just seem to be apologists for Apple.
I cannot see Apple putting in an SD card clot but i would like them to put in an express card slot at least.

No.


People buy Mac laptops because they're sleek, sexy, run OS X, are minimalistic, and have very good build quality. If they want 4 USB ports, HDMI, VGA, a 5-in-1 card reader, firewire, and a fingerprint scanner, they don't buy a Mac.

It's that simple. You seem to have a problem with this though. If you don't like minimalistic design, could I suggest that Apple might not be the best source of tech gear?

 

[darienphoenix]

Neither. I only do that to people who seems to argue that less choice is better, and that it would take way too much effort and be a veritable impossibility to include a firewire port on a 13 inch macbook without it being 2 inches thick.

Ugh. Aside from the fact that there literally ISN'T any room on the right side of the case for another port, unless one of the others is removed.

http://static1.ifixit.com/igi/AUZYBwBSf4DGQiru.standard
http://www.ifixit.com/Guide/First-Look/Mac/MacBook-Unibody/Page-6

Firewire needs more room than a USB port, because IIRC the controller needs to be slapped on with it.

Personally, I'd prefer 2 USB 2.0 ports on my consumer notebook than one USB and one Firewire. When was the last time you saw someone from the Macbook's target audience using Firewire? The vast majority of external HDD's use eSata or USB 2.0 these days, and the same goes for camcorders. Not many non-techies even know what Firewire IS, whereas USB is ubiquitous.

Besides which, would they put in the now-practically-obsolete Firewire 400, or 800?

Firewire is on the way out, and there is no real NEED to have it in a consumer-level laptop, ESPECIALLY since it's inclusion would mean one less USB port, or worse, ditching Ethernet or video out.

Don't be ridiculous. I do like minimalistic design, but not the extend that it renders a tool useless.

I'm calling WTF right here. If lack of a card reader (despite cheap USB-connected alternatives) and a firewire port on a consumer notebook makes said notebook 'useless' to you, you have some very specific requirements for your laptops. You're also being a tad dramatic.

I assume you were being general, in which case I agree completely that minimalism is pointless if there is no functionality whatsoever. However, that hardly applies in this case, or any other Apple gear. Even the Air, which I think is completely pointless when you can buy a top-spec AlBook cheaper with more functionality, power, and not much more weight penalty, has a specific market it appeals to (namely, people who want the prettiest laptop in the Airport lounge).

 

[darienphoenix]

I am not talking about you but some people just seem to be apologists for Apple.

Oh hell no. The amount of stupid decisions Apple has made which I have criticized (iPhone NDA, general refusal to admit technical problems with their gear, etc) makes a long list.

I do, however, think the new Macbooks are a briliant design, and have exactly the right balance of functionality for a consumer notebook. I'm defending the design decisions Apple made, such as ditching Firewire and not having a multitude of ports, because I think they were good decisions.

 

[Rossoneri]

Spec out (BTO) this HP.

Sony's are just as much rip-offs as Apple. Bad examples. HP's have good build quality, unlike Dell. And they're light. I just found you an $850 HP there with slightly better specs than a MB (i.e., dedicated graphics, bigger HD). Meaning the MB is more than a 50% markup.

Yea, I just configured that notebook to makes its specs equivalent to a macbook (even though the ram, video card, build quality not even on the same ballpark as the macbook, etc.) it came out to $1303 and I did not even factor in antivirus software or software that is equivalent to ilife. So your claim that macs are so expensive does not hold up to scrutiny. Apple is charging the current market price for their computers.

 

[darienphoenix]

Compare a Macbook Pro 15" to a HP or Dell 15", and then you'll see a huge difference.

Apple is really the only manufacturer who uses the 13" formfactor as their consumer notebooks, and so Macbooks are pretty competitive. Go to the 15" segment, though, and you're really relying on build quality and the ability to run OS X in order to justify the price difference over something like a Dell Studio.

Hell, my girlfriend bought a _17"_ Dell Studio with an ATI 3750 (IIRC), 2x200GB HDD's, and 2.4GHz, for less than I paid for my new AlBook.

Trying to pretend there isn't a markup on Apple PC's is a losing battle. Of course, I still buy them, because I love OS X, the build quality, and the sex factor, but I don't delude myself into thinking I haven't been ripped off.

Especially in Australia. We pay $2500 for the top-spec AlBook here. Exchange rate rape.

Yea, I just configured that notebook to makes its specs equivalent to a macbook (even though the ram, video card, build quality not even on the same ballpark as the macbook, etc.) it came out to $1303 and I did not even factor in antivirus software or software that is equivalent to ilife. So your claim that macs are so expensive does not hold up to scrutiny. Apple is charging the current market price for their computers.

What's the difference in RAM? They're both DDR2-667.

Seriously, Apple RAM isn't 'special', or better than any other notebook DDR2-667. IIRC the only real difference is the CAS latencies, and that's.... what? 1% speed difference when doing specific memory benckmarks?

 

[jayeskreezy]

My only recommendation... More USB Ports!!!!

A USB hub is not acceptable. I have trouble connecting my iPod to a USB hub, my TV tuner doesn't like the USB hub... a lot of things don't like the USB hub. My old Dell has 4 USB, and is sub $1000... Also has firewire, modem, ethernet, vga, headphone, microphone, card reader, s-video, etc... all of which still work after 3 years. They do not take away from the design at all in my opinion.

Just throwing that out there. It's doable, but I don't think we'll ever see it.

Ditto. I don't think a card reader is necessary though considering every camera comes with a usb cord.

 

[darienphoenix]

Ditto. I don't think a card reader is necessary though considering every camera comes with a usb cord.

The point was that transfer using USB 2.0 is slower than plugging the card directly into a card reader, I believe.

 

[jayeskreezy]

The point was that transfer using USB 2.0 is slower than plugging the card directly into a card reader, I believe.

Oh. Even when I had a laptop with a card reader on it I still used the cable. I guess it doesn't make that much difference to me. I think Image Capture gets pics pretty fast.

 

[Jake381]

You guys are such fanboys. I love how HP can come out with a slim laptop with a memory card reader, TV Tuner, and other nice features, but if Apple did it, it would weigh 17 pounds!

Do you seriously think Apple couldn't design a laptop that was worth someone's money?

Take a look at apples target market for their products. These people want simple and powerful computers that will perform all the easy and not so easy tasks your average user requires.

If I want to watch TV, I go to my TV. I don't use a TV tuner.
If it is that much of a bother, i'm sure there is a hardware adapter you can buy to make it possible.
Card readers look stupid, and again, most users don't need them. USB is what most users use.

 

[Tosser]

Ugh. Aside from the fact that there literally ISN'T any room on the right side of the case for another port, unless one of the others is removed.

http://static1.ifixit.com/igi/AUZYBwBSf4DGQiru.standard
http://www.ifixit.com/Guide/First-Look/Mac/MacBook-Unibody/Page-6

Firewire needs more room than a USB port, because IIRC the controller needs to be slapped on with it.

Wow. You don't get it, do you? Linking to pics of the current DESIGN, doesn't help your argument, as it was designed NOT to have the port.

Personally, I'd prefer 2 USB 2.0 ports on my consumer notebook than one USB and one Firewire.

Ah, I see you bought into the "consumer vs. pro" reality distortion field …
Secondly, since they were able to have a two USB ports, a firewire port AND a modem on the 12 inch powerbook, and room for two usb ports AND firewire in the thicker (as in goods' thickness) previous gen MacBook, the only reason there is no "room for it" NOW is because they designed it WITHOUT the room.

When was the last time you saw someone from the Macbook's target audience using Firewire? The vast majority of external HDD's use eSata or USB 2.0 these days, and the same goes for camcorders. Not many non-techies even know what Firewire IS, whereas USB is ubiquitous.

Not many lowest common denominator users knows what ethernet can do either. Not many lowest common denominator users know how to use the terminal and on and on.

You're forgetting one thing: The "target audience" used to include more than the lowest common denominator users.
Now, you still get iMovie with your MacBook. An app that imports video through firewire.

Besides which, would they put in the now-practically-obsolete Firewire 400, or 800?

Ah, yes, the dilemma!!

Firewire is on the way out, and there is no real NEED to have it in a consumer-level laptop,

Again, you really should rethink that utterly ignorant distinction. As it is now, the "pro" is just a larger glass MacBook. It's certainly not "pro" by any means. It's glass over glossy, it has a SINGLE firewire port, and that firewire port is using a chipset that is 100 percent useless with some audio interfaces, and "merely" buggy with many other things.

ESPECIALLY since it's inclusion would mean one less USB port, or worse, ditching Ethernet or video out.

Again, no it wouldn't. Your redesigning after the fact. If they had included one on the initial list used for the design, it wouldn't mean you'd have to nix anything.

I'm calling WTF right here. If lack of a card reader (despite cheap USB-connected alternatives) and a firewire port on a consumer notebook makes said notebook 'useless' to you, you have some very specific requirements for your laptops. You're also being a tad dramatic.

My comment wasn't JUST about a card reader. It was a comment on the notion that pretty looks are more important than functionality. If that notion is taken to the extreme, we're **** out of luck, productivity wise. In the case of nixing the FW (you people were arguing that it would like a dell if such things were included), it became completely useless for a lot of us. This is not being "dramatic" that is simply just reality. Just like the new MBP is useless to some of us because of the use of the agere ch[ea]pset.

I assume you were being general, in which case I agree completely that minimalism is pointless if there is no functionality whatsoever.

And this is where I was getting at.

However, that hardly applies in this case, or any other Apple gear. Even the Air, which I think is completely pointless when you can buy a top-spec AlBook cheaper with more functionality, power, and not much more weight penalty, has a specific market it appeals to (namely, people who want the prettiest laptop in the Airport lounge).

Exactly: People who really doesn't have any particular (technical) needs, but merely wants to look "good" (or like idiots, depending on your point of view and in which context).

 

[darienphoenix]

Bloody hell Tosser, you sure can talk/type.

Wow. You don't get it, do you? Linking to pics of the current DESIGN, doesn't help your argument, as it was designed NOT to have the port.

NS. If they added the port, they'd need to make room for it somewhere. Which part of the battery would you like them to chop off, Tosser?

Ah, I see you bought into the "consumer vs. pro" reality distortion field …

...I'm speechless. You don't think the distinction exists?

Care to tell everyone else in the industry?

Not many lowest common denominator users knows what ethernet can do either. Not many lowest common denominator users know how to use the terminal and on and on.

Terminal is software, so that's a laughable comparison. As for Ethernet, it's just slightly more important than a near-legacy port used by a minority of equipment.

Seriously, you're like the people who whinged when the first iMac ditched 3 1/4" floppies.

Again, no it wouldn't. Your redesigning after the fact. If they had included one on the initial list used for the design, it wouldn't mean you'd have to nix anything.

You must live in that awesome fantasy land where laptop designers can add extra things to the internals of a case without something of equal size having to come out.

My comment wasn't JUST about a card reader. It was a comment on the notion that pretty looks are more important than functionality. If that notion is taken to the extreme, we're **** out of luck, productivity wise.

Fortunately, we're not there yet. If we were talking about the Air, you'd have a point.

In the case of nixing the FW, it became completely useless for a lot of us.

Seriously, the hell? What do you use Firewire for that can't be replicated another way? I'm honestly curious now.

I'm sure there's reasons people desperately need a Firewire 400 port, but fortunately there's a simple solution. Don't buy the new Macbook. Funny how easy that is, eh? I'm sure Apple will cope with the 1% of lost sales.

 

[Tosser]

Bloody hell Tosser, you sure can talk/type.

Ha ha, likewise

NS. If they added the port, they'd need to make room for it somewhere. Which part of the battery would you like them to chop off, Tosser?

As mentioned, you're designing AFTER the fact. My argument is that it could have been included if they wanted to, and if they had done so from the initial design.

...I'm speechless. You don't think the distinction exists?

Care to tell everyone else in the industry?

I'm sorry, but "my" industri knows full well, that there are such things as pro and consumer. However, it also recognises that Apple's way of distinguishing is nothing more than marketing. Especially after the glassbooks came to market. The only thing separating the two practically speaking are screen size and an Expresscard slot. That's it, as the firewire port is next to useless.

Terminal is software, so that's a laughable comparison.

No, it's certainly not, when one considers your entire argument is based on the popularity fallacy "There is no need for X, since most people don't know what to do with it". In that sense, ONLY the most wide spread lowest common denominator "features" should be there. Meaning there is no room to evolve, no room to be(come) anything more than just such a lowest common denominator consumer.

As for Ethernet, it's just slightly more important than a near-legacy port used by a minority of equipment.

See above. Your entire argument was based on the lowest common denominator not using something, nor knowing how to use it.

Seriously, you're like the people who whinged when the first iMac ditched 3 1/4" floppies.

Nope. You see, first of all, I had already moved on to something better. Secondly, something better was technically possible. Thirdly, something better was offered.

You must live in that awesome fantasy land where laptop designers can add extra things to the internals of a case without something of equal size having to come out.

No. I just realise that one doesn't design after the fact, and that an engineer will use all the space available if given the chance. Let's say we nixed ethernet and one of the USB ports as well. When a designer is to make a redesign, there will be no place for "extra" ports in that thing either, IF you - like you continue to try to do - design AFTER the fact.

Fortunately, we're not there yet. If we were talking about the Air, you'd have a point.

As mentioned, the MB and MB is utterly useless to me. One for the lack of FW and the other for the use of the agere chipset.

Seriously, the hell? What do you use Firewire for that can't be replicated another way? I'm honestly curious now.

A-u-d-i-o interfaces and recorders. Other people use it for video. You cannot replicate that in any way. Show me something that can replicate it, and I will buy it. Of course, the premise is that I shouldn't be having to take a five-ten year step back in quality and productivity.

Hell, I also use it for Target Disk Mode and so on.

I'm sure there's reasons people desperately need a Firewire 400 port, but fortunately there's a simple solution. Don't buy the new Macbook. Funny how easy that is, eh? I'm sure Apple will cope with the 1% of lost sales.

LOL, you don't even know what FW is used for, and your argument stemming from that ignorance is that one should simply not buy it? Obviously you have no idea how difficult is for pros to migrate to another platform and how much we have invested – in both time and money - all to be told to follow whatever whim of Apple or "just" go buy something else.
I'm sorry, but some of us have bigger needs than connecting our point'n'shoot, iPod and iPhone.
The funny part is, that Apple recognises this. Unfortunately only in their marketing, hence the continued use of the "pro" monicker on their 15" MacBook, in an effort to piggy back on the reputation we gave them so they can sell more to the lowest common denominator consumer (i.e. the iPod Crowd) making the fake distinction of "pro" and "consumer" on their laptop offerings.