Apple's Proposal to Allow Third-Party Payment Methods in App Store 'Lacks Detail,' Says South Korean Regulatory Commission

[macar00n]

And they didn't actually do it
More so, most people didn't pay Google for anything.

If you disrupt millions of users by shutting down your app store and blocking them from making use of their $1200 device that runs their daily lives, they are going to hold it against you. If you end up blocking their work apps that have a subscription because you no longer want to process fees to make a statement, they are going to leave for a different platform.

What is your end goal, to voluntarily and permanently deeply erode Apple's Market share in half the world because you are butt hurt that the governments want some regulations on Apple's App Store?

Threatening to withdraw would send a clear enough message that most idiot lawmakers would back off because it'd make them unpopular with their citizens (who want their iPhones to work), and they only care about maintaining popularity so that they can accept bribes from corporations to pass legislation.

Apple isn't being a child here, it's these lawmakers. Apple would send their customers a notice saying that due to their government trying to corrupt Apple's products, they must withdraw from the country by X date and that users can contact their local government to try to prevent the new laws forcing Apple to accept alternate payment methods / sideload / add a USB-C port / etc. The backlash from these users against their malfunctioning government would sort it out quickly and Apple wouldn't have to withdraw. If South Korea or whoever really wants to call their bluff and force the issue, how many days without working iPhones until the backlash from users was great enough for the government to reverse course? Not long, I'm willing to bet. The alternative is Apple bows to every ridiculous government rule and we get a trash product like Android

 

[macar00n]

I'm starting a petition to rename this country to South Karena

 

[AppliedMicro]

Imagine telling a physical store that you want to put your products on its shelves for free

As a matter of fact, Apple themselves told developers that they'd let them put their products (apps) on its shelves (in their app store) for free. They still do.

If that happened then every platform from Walmart to PlayStation would never make money and be forced out of business

Wrong.

If Walmart puts free products on its shelves, that'll bring customer traffic to its store - which gives them the opportunity to sell other items to those customers (e.g. expensive iPhones).

Walmart…”yes of course it’s free to stack your product anywhere in our store!”

Apple is deliberately offering shelf space for free.

I think it's ridiculous that my grocery store is able to make a profit on selling me groceries. All they do is order the product, manage the inventory, pay for real estate, pay for upkeeping and staffing, and manage returns and disputes, among other things. We should pass a law allowing the farmers to offer me a payment processing option that cuts the store out of the loop so I can pay wholesale prices while using all the services associated with shopping in their store."

Comparing Apples to Oranges.

When I'm buying an in-game artifact, armor or coins from the game's developer through their purchasing mechanism, Apple doesn't need to handle anything.

Same as my Netflix subscription. Which is not delivered by Apple, but by Netflix and its CDN partners.

 

[I7guy]

I wasn't talking about that and more about saying Tim should pull Apple out of a bunch of different markets as if a 4-year old was running the company and throwing a tantrum.

LIke googles' execs are 4 years old?

 

[I7guy]

Operate Legally... means operating within the LAWS set by a GOVERNMENT. The Government is free to set their own rules, not corporations.

Do you want to try again?

Didn't answer the question. Do you want to try again. What is your end goal? To continue to support governments eroding innovation by creating laws after the fact to usurp companies ip if you don't like the way they operate?

 

[bobbie424242]

"Our work will always be guided by keeping the ‌App Store‌ a safe and trusted place for our users to download the apps they love"

Translation: "We will drag out feets as much as we can and make it as hard as possible for developers and users to use alternate payments systems".

 

[dguisinger]

Didn't answer the question. Do you want to try again. What is your end goal? To continue to support governments eroding innovation by creating laws after the fact to usurp companies ip if you don't like the way they operate?

I don't see it eroding innovation. Its no different than Apple being allowed to sell an iPhone in a Walmart without Walmart forcing Apple to hand over 30% of all their services revenue for that iPhone. I don't see you fighting for Walmart's right to what Apple earned outside of their store.

 

[macar00n]

As a matter of fact, Apple themselves told developers that they'd let them put their products (apps) on its shelves (in their app store) for free. They still do.

Funny that you call apples to oranges on others' posts at the same time as bringing free apps into a discussion about payment processing. If the app is truly free, there's no need for a 3rd party payment processor. If the app is "free" and has in-app purchases, it's not a free app. What would stop every single paid app becoming free and having an in-app payment, through a 3rd party processor, to unlock the app? Yes, Apple allows devs to get exposure for free, by listing a free app. If the dev profits from it, using Apple's store, Apple wants a small share in it. Just like any physical store reasonably does. Some even unreasonably - I'm sure you've read about how Walmart treats its suppliers.

When I'm buying an in-game artifact, armor or coins from the game's developer through their purchasing mechanism, Apple doesn't need to handle anything.

Hey everyone let's take a quick poll, when you're using one of the 100 apps on your phone, do you want Apple to handle your payment, or a 3rd party totally legit though and has your best interests in mind payment processor selected by the indie developer of that app? A payment processor that, by the way, charges fees without contributing anything at all to the success of the app, unlike Apple?

Same as my Netflix subscription. Which is not delivered by Apple, but by Netflix and its CDN partners.

If you bought your Netflix subscription on a computer, and always used it on the computer (or even on your iPhone after that), Apple gets nothing. If you absolutely must subscribe on the iPhone, there is simply no other way for you to subscribe to Netflix other than through an Apple mobile device, you don't even have access to a computer at your local library to subscribe to Netflix, then could that be a sign that Apple's app store is delivering value and deserves a small cut?

 

[AppliedMicro]

Apple would send their customers a notice saying that due to their government trying to corrupt Apple's products, they must withdraw from the country by X date and that users can contact their local government to try to prevent the new laws forcing Apple to ...

Just like they did in China, when and where they handed over iCloud data and operation to a local company - thereby corrupting their product to comply with local regulation?

Privacy is a fundamental human right and a core value of Apple's? My ass!

So... now that we have established precedent that Apple does "corrupt" its products and services to comply with local legislation: are you demanding they withdraw from China first?

 

[I7guy]

I don't see it eroding innovation. Its no different than Apple being allowed to sell an iPhone in a Walmart without Walmart forcing Apple to hand over 30% of all their services revenue for that iPhone. I don't see you fighting for Walmart's right to what Apple earned outside of their store.

What you see me fighting for is for government not to force Walmart to install Target cash registers.

 

[I7guy]

[...]: are you demanding they withdraw from China first?

Maybe if we are going down the "withdraw" route, let's start small....like in S. Korea.

 

[LV426]

If they're going to act like this, then they should have the iPhone and its app store taken away. Imagine telling a physical store that you want to put your products on its shelves for free, want your own payment method added to their checkout for free, and dictate the exact terms of how they are sold. South Korean lawmakers are completely out of touch, and would be straightened out by their citizens in about ten minutes if Apple threatened to pull out of the country.

You have accurately described a car boot sale in action. Most sales of this kind do involve payment of a seller's fee (e.g. pitching up).

I'm not saying that App Store fees are ethical, but it does cost Apple money to host, promote, evaluate listings etc. We probably all know that they could quite happily charge a much smaller fee if they wanted to.

 

[macar00n]

I don't see it eroding innovation. Its no different than Apple being allowed to sell an iPhone in a Walmart without Walmart forcing Apple to hand over 30% of all their services revenue for that iPhone. I don't see you fighting for Walmart's right to what Apple earned outside of their store.

If you bought the iPhone from a Walmart, and subsequently any time you wanted to use it you had to go to a Walmart to do it, I do think that Walmart would be entitled to some cut (even though I'm far from a fan of Walmart). You can buy a Netflix sub on your computer and Apple will get nothing. If you must purchase something in Apple's app store from your mobile device because it only exists there, and you must use Apple's hardware and ecosystem in order to be able to use it, does that not mean Apple created some value and should be at least somewhat compensated?

 

[macar00n]

I'm not saying that App Store fees are ethical, but it does cost Apple money to host, promote, evaluate listings etc. We probably all know that they could quite happily charge a much smaller fee if they wanted to.

For the record, I'm not arguing against Apple charging devs lower fees. I'm against South Karena enacting a law requiring 3rd party payment methods to circumvent Apple after, as you said, Apple has contributed quite a bit to the ability of that developer to accept that payment in the first place.

 

[vipergts2207]

LIke googles' execs are 4 years old?

First of all, I don't know much about the issue in Australia, but on its face I don't necessarily agree with Australia's actions there. In any case, Australia has a relatively small population. It's population is the size of one large U.S. state, or to keep it relevant to this article, half the size of South Korea. Google's ad revenue from the search engine business in Australia is likely modest at best and doesn't have a follow on impact to the rest of their business. It's an easy threat and one with little ramifications for Google if they actually do it. Conversely, what you're suggesting is that Apple cut off its nose to spite its face. If Apple shuts down the App Store wholesale in a country, not only do they completely shut down that revenue stream, but they also take a baseball bat to the sales of the iPhone. Nobody wants a smartphone without the ability to install third-party apps. Apple's bottom line in that country would take a big hit.

 

[macar00n]

Just like they did in China, when and where they handed over iCloud data and operation to a local company - thereby corrupting their product to comply with local regulation?

Privacy is a fundamental human right and a core value of Apple's? My ass!

So... now that we have established precedent that Apple does "corrupt" its products and services to comply with local legislation: are you demanding they withdraw from China first?

I posted in this thread what I thought Apple should do, not what I thought was consistent with its values or past actions. I think most of us in this forum would agree that Apple's actions with regard to China and the CSAM debacle illustrate that they don't live up to the bar they very publicly set for themselves. I'm just saying, while remaining as (in)consistent with their values as they have been, they can tell South Karena to pound sand and email their users the reason why the app store won't work in their country starting on X date. The users will then sort it out with their addled government

 

[AppliedMicro]

What would stop every single paid app becoming free and having an in-app payment, through a 3rd party processor, to unlock the app?

Simple as that: It's Apple's app store, isn't it?
They can set the fees for development tools and app store downloads as they want can't they?

The difference is: They'd then be charging for a service they actually maintain, operate and deliver.
Not 30% of anything they can get their hands on and force developers to go through them.

Hey everyone let's take a quick poll, when you're using one of the 100 apps on your phone, do you want Apple to handle your payment, or a 3rd party totally legit though and has your best interests in mind payment processor selected by the indie developer of that app?

I've bought Mac software worth hundreds of USD through "alternative" payment processors outside of the app store
I've never had a problem with that. The last app I bought, I got for 58 instead of 120 on Apple's App Store.
I've also reserved, authorised my credit card and paid for hotel rooms in a dozen countries around the world, no problem. And some of them were like small local hotels.

Don't tell me Apple and their holy payment processors are the only option around the world.

Would I buy from every third-party developer and any dubious random payment processor? Certainly not.

then could that be a sign that Apple's app store is delivering value and deserves a small cut?

When I'd buy a Netflix subscription in App, it's 99% Netflix (and their partners) delivering the value.
Not Apple - and certainly not 15% or 30%.

If I buy an in-game character or starship that has been carefully crafted by the game developer's graphic designers, voice actors, sounds artists etc. and is being rendered on my screen by Apple's Unreal Engine, Apple delivers nowhere near 30% of the value.

 

[macar00n]

First of all, I don't know much about the issue in Australia, but on its face I don't necessarily agree with Australia's actions there. In any case, Australia has a relatively small population. It's population is the size of one large U.S. state, or to keep it relevant to this article, half the size of South Korea. Google's ad revenue from the search engine business in Australia is likely modest at best and doesn't have a follow on impact to the rest of their business. It's an easy threat and one with little ramifications for Google if they actually do it. Conversely, what you're suggesting is that Apple cut off its nose to spite its face. If Apple shuts down the App Store wholesale in a country, not only do they completely shut down that revenue stream, but they also take a baseball bat to the sales of the iPhone. Nobody wants a smartphone without the ability to install third-party apps. Apple's bottom line in that country would take a big hit.

Please, the rabid, dopamine-starved Tik Tok users of the country would march on the government and demand it cave to Apple so that the only source of joy in their life (colorful rectangle that releases dopamine with each swipe) could function properly. The law would be rolled back in under 24 hours if it passed in the first place despite anticipated backlash.

 

[I7guy]

First of all, I don't know much about the issue in Australia, but on its face I don't necessarily agree with Australia's actions there. In any case, Australia has a relatively small population. It's population is the size of one large U.S. state, or to keep it relevant to this article, half the size of South Korea. Google's ad revenue from the search engine business in Australia is likely modest at best and doesn't have a follow on impact to the rest of their business. It's an easy threat and one with little ramifications for Google if they actually do it. Conversely, what you're suggesting is that Apple cut off its nose to spite its face. If Apple shuts down the App Store wholesale in a country, not only do they completely shut down that revenue stream, but they also take a baseball bat to the sales of the iPhone. Nobody wants a smartphone without the ability to install third-party apps. Apple's bottom line in that country would take a big hit.

I'm suggesting that Apple not taking a legitimate approach to stop the tide of governments taking possession of the ios app store, would not be the best approach. While, as I have said previously, apple has to follow laws and I (and you and the royal you) have no impact on the outcome, it's an unhealthy trend of governmental overreach, imo.

 

[macar00n]

Would I buy from every third-party developer and any dubious random payment processor? Certainly not.

Good for you - the 99+% of technically inept users certainly would. They can't tell. They can barely read, much less make an informed decision. This would spawn an unbelievable volume of scams that currently can't exist. Look at how plagued Windows is with scams.

When I'd buy a Netflix subscription in App, it's 99% Netflix (and their partners) delivering the value.
Not Apple - and certainly not 15% or 30%.

Okay, so go to a computer and buy it. My point was, if you seriously don't even have access to a computer at the library and can only purchase it on the iPhone, maybe Apple is providing a solid amount of value.

P.S. I don't disagree with lower Apple cut. Pick a % cut that's fair to you, but in the above scenario Apple is delivering value and should be compensated.

 

[huge_apple_fangirl]

Stage 1: Denial “We are already in compliance”
State 2: Anger “Well, fine, but we’ll make it as difficult as possible”
Stage 3: Bargaining- what will Apple do now?

 

[vipergts2207]

What you see me fighting for is for government not to force Walmart to install Target cash registers.

Which is a strange analogy considering that 98% (made up figure, but probably not too far off) of developers are not competitors with Apple like Walmart and Target are with one another. Of course, completely ignoring that fact that neither Walmart not Target are part of a duopoly.

 

[Apple fan from Korea]

I live in Korea and surprisingly I haven’t seen this type of news on any of the local channels and news sites.

 

[vipergts2207]

I'm suggesting that Apple not taking a legitimate approach to stop the tide of governments taking possession of the ios app store, would not be the best approach. While, as I have said previously, apple has to follow laws and I (and you and the royal you) have no impact on the outcome, it's an unhealthy trend of governmental overreach, imo.

I'm entirely unsurprised you view it as "governmental overreach" considering that you take the extremist view that even if Apple had 100% of the market, they still shouldn't be subject to any meaningful regulations regarding anticompetitive behavior.

 

[I7guy]

Which is a strange analogy considering that 98% (made up figure, but probably not too far off) of developers are not competitors with Apple like Walmart and Target are with one another. Of course, completely ignoring that fact that neither Walmart not Target are part of a duopoly.

But illustrates the point. Aside from Linux phones, what is illustrated with this “duopoly “ is the power voting with your dollars has. Ask windows and blackberry.