Macs last longer than PCs. Therefore Macs don't get replaced as much and market share will never be as high as PCs.
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Apple's Retail Strategy
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carletonmusic said:
$499 with Mail-in Rebate, and Dell is well known for trying their best to weasel out of Mail-in Rebates.
Additionally that $499 Dell (which is actually $599) doesn't even HAVE a graphics card.
Dell desktops are horrible. HORRIBLE. Only the high end ones even have graphics cards, and they usually cost more than competitors.
I went on comgeeks.com, and using mostly new (maybe one or two refurbished) parts, I could buy the parts and built me an Athlon 2500+ (equivilant to a 2.5 ghz P4) with a Radeon 9200 64 MB + TV Out, 512 MB of RAM, built in ethernet, a large expandible case, a CD-ROM AND DVD/CD-RW combo drive (put a CD in one, burn in the other), and a whopping 80 gig hard drive.
How much, you ask? $350. It whoops the pants off the Dell with 128 MB RAM (below the recommended amount of 256...and most PC magazines recommend at least 512 with a P4), no graphics card, a slightly slower processor that takes more power (Pentium 4's are famous for that), a mere CD-ROM, a 40 gig hard drive, etc etc...
No, the reason other companies seem cheaper is that Apple doesn't offer low end stuff once they're through with it. I'd bet Apple could easily start offering a $500 eMac without a graphics card and an 800 mhz G4 processor and 128 MB of RAM if they felt like it. But with the massive performance boost of Quartz Extreme, they need the graphics card (raising the price by at least 50 to 100 $$$), they don't like using older processors (G4's range from 400 mhz to 1.33 ghz, and yet you will never find a Mac with less than 1 GHz new on the market except the iBook G4), and they give you extra RAM built in because they realize 128 MB is not enough.
Dell is content to rip off customers who say, "Wow, a $499 computer? What a good deal! I don't realize that it will have no ability to play games without a graphics card and will be much slower than it is capable of without the RAM!"
Price is not stupid....
Price is not stupid. And Apple has had 20 years to get the word out.
The fact is, Apple is overpriced for the market. Why should someone switch and pay more for the "privilege" of owning a Mac when Windows is evolving to an acceptable OS and ALL of the hardware/software is written for Windows and not the Mac? Total cost of ownership is far lower for Windows machines vs. Mac.
If you make the emotional decision to buy a Mac, fine. I've done the same thing myself. But this board's tendency to label Dell users as somehow unsophisticated computer users or dupes who do nothing other than check e-mail is as mean-spirited as it is unfounded.
jxyama said:
Price is not stupid. And Apple has had 20 years to get the word out.
The fact is, Apple is overpriced for the market. Why should someone switch and pay more for the "privilege" of owning a Mac when Windows is evolving to an acceptable OS and ALL of the hardware/software is written for Windows and not the Mac? Total cost of ownership is far lower for Windows machines vs. Mac.
If you make the emotional decision to buy a Mac, fine. I've done the same thing myself. But this board's tendency to label Dell users as somehow unsophisticated computer users or dupes who do nothing other than check e-mail is as mean-spirited as it is unfounded.
Exactly. I may get flamed for saying so, but I don't think Apple will ever get passed a 10% marketshare because of the consumer/pro users they want to please. (along with the higher price associated with that market.)brhmac said:
brhmac said:
No, all powermacs come with mice and keyboard.
Additionally, market share doesn't mean as much. If someone new to computers goes to buy one, they look out and see everyone else using Windows so they march over to Dell which everyone else is using and buy one. They don't realize Mac is better. Eventually someone with a Mac reaches them and teaches them the error of their ways.
Right now a lot of people are starting to use computers who could never use them before. I saw a 70 year old woman in a keyboarding class the other day. With all these people new to computers, the first thing they look at is PC.
So the PC manufacturer's maket share will increase faster. This does not mean that Apple is losing anything.
If Apple gains 500,000 new users, and Dell gains 1,000,000, Apple's market share will appear to drop. They still made a large gain, just not quite as much as the others.
Additionally, most people compare Apple to Microsoft. That is silly. Linux should be compared to Microsoft marketshare wise.
Apple is a HARDWARE company, not software company. If Apple started licensing their OS and IBM selling their G5's to other manufacturers like Dell, then Apple could be compared to Microsoft. Since Apple is the HARDWARE company, Apple is directly competing with Dell and Gateway and the likes, NOT with Microsoft.
Dell has what, 15% marketshare? THAT is what Apple is targetting. Once Apple hits 15% marketshare, they will be the biggest hardware company. It might be a waaaaaaays off though
Most people look at Microsoft's 95% or so of the market and think "Apple is really losing bad". But Apple is a hardware company, and if you look at the other market shares, Apple is whupping the rear off Alienware and Sony and others. They are the FIFTH LARGEST in Marketshare for hardware companies. They are #1 for technical support. They are FOURTH in earnings. They are doing quite well
Right now a lot of people are starting to use computers who could never use them before. I saw a 70 year old woman in a keyboarding class the other day. With all these people new to computers, the first thing they look at is PC.
So the PC manufacturer's maket share will increase faster. This does not mean that Apple is losing anything.
If Apple gains 500,000 new users, and Dell gains 1,000,000, Apple's market share will appear to drop. They still made a large gain, just not quite as much as the others.
Additionally, most people compare Apple to Microsoft. That is silly. Linux should be compared to Microsoft marketshare wise.
Apple is a HARDWARE company, not software company. If Apple started licensing their OS and IBM selling their G5's to other manufacturers like Dell, then Apple could be compared to Microsoft. Since Apple is the HARDWARE company, Apple is directly competing with Dell and Gateway and the likes, NOT with Microsoft.
Dell has what, 15% marketshare? THAT is what Apple is targetting. Once Apple hits 15% marketshare, they will be the biggest hardware company. It might be a waaaaaaays off though
Most people look at Microsoft's 95% or so of the market and think "Apple is really losing bad". But Apple is a hardware company, and if you look at the other market shares, Apple is whupping the rear off Alienware and Sony and others. They are the FIFTH LARGEST in Marketshare for hardware companies. They are #1 for technical support. They are FOURTH in earnings. They are doing quite well
iPOD
My guess is that they do the advertising thru the iPod. People need to find out anyway where to buy them, right?
Dave
AirUncleP said:
My guess is that they do the advertising thru the iPod. People need to find out anyway where to buy them, right?
Dave
brhmac said:
Macs are better suited for people who wants to do things more than average person wants to, like editing home movies. that was the point i made. this is not meant to say dell owners won't do those things. but i firmly believe iApps will allow Mac users to do a lot more than anything bundled with dells.
so, i completely agree that it's not for everyone, it's overpriced if you don't want to do those things and windows machines will be cheaper if you don't want to do those things.
i argue that there will always be a small subset of computer users who want to do creative things like i mentioned before and they will strongly consider Macs. whether or not apple had intended to become a niche market product or not, i believe it has become one. and i don't think that market will go away as long as more and more people start using creative digital hardware like cameras and camcorders.
edit: when i bought my PB, i did so because i just had enough with windows. i didn't know about iApps. i didn't know about Mac's capabilities. i just wanted a laptop that didn't run windows and came from a well known vendor.
it was a pleasant surprise to learn about iPhoto and iMovie. but i believe a case like mine is an exception. as digital devices become more common, apple really needs to push the digital hub aspect of Macs and sell on those merits. but it's a hard sell because most people don't even realize why they'd want to even bother editting their home videos or burn DVDs. it's a slow process.
if you made "an emotional" decision to get a Mac, i guess all i can say is i hope you don't regret it. you are right that there are some posters here who generalize dell users as computer idiots. but i'd guess to say it's partially true - there are more computer idiot people who use dells than Macs, just because of the number of computers out there.
brhmac said:
I agree with you on that one. Apple's advertising while sometimes very revolutionary in an "artsy" way does little for Joe Public. Silhouettes dancing, people getting blown out of a house, what the heck?! Most people don't have a clue on Apple when I mention them in a sentence. I usually get...
- Are they still around?
- They aren't compatible with anything and have proprietary hardware. (then I must explain they use USB, standard memory, TCP/IP, etc. now and have for many years)
- Many judge a computer by it's ability to use Office, said but true. Many people I talk to don't even realize Office exists for the Mac.
I don't know why Apple is not grabbing on to the interest in the iPod and including them in commercials for the PowerMac. Maybe even show a PowerMac doing something! As for price I don't see that changing anytime soon unfortunately, they like the high margins and see themselves as the luxury car of computers. But Joe Public also wants a $299 computer so maybe it would be wasted effort anyway for the masses....
I hate mail-in rebates; my policy on mail-in rebates is to just ignore them because it's not worth the hassle for me. If I were to buy a PC from Dell (or any other PC manufacturer) that offered a mail-in rebate, I would buy based on the price without the rebate. Right now, I don't need a Windows PC, but if I do need one later, I'll use this guideline when buying.GFLPraxis said:
wrldwzrd89 said:
it's not worth the hassle? geez, it's "free" money. i don't see why it's such a big deal - fill out the form, retain a copy and mail it in. you get a check later.
no, you shouldn't budget $400 to get $500 computer with $100 rebate, because you won't be able to buy it. and you are right it's not the "real" price of the computer.
but that doesn't mean you should not bother with rebates! (send the forms and receipts to me, i'll sent them in for you for a cut of the check.
)
Yes, it's "free" money, but I always forget to use it and the rebate takes so long to process that I don't remember when I sent it injxyama said:it's not worth the hassle? geez, it's "free" money. i don't see why it's such a big deal - fill out the form, retain a copy and mail it in. you get a check later.
yes, you shouldn't budget $400 to get $500 computer with $100 rebate, because you won't be able to buy it. and you are right it's not the "real" price of the computer.
but that doesn't mean you should not bother with rebates! (send the forms and receipts to me, i'll sent them in for you for a cut of the check.
(if it's an Apple mail-in rebate, this policy does not apply).
AirUncleP said:
And this is why Apple will never increase market share without a partner and multiple sources of parts. The occasional recommendation that causes a person to go into an Apple store, and the general wandering of a person in a mall that happens to make their way into an attractive store will never compete with the output of Dell, HP, Gateway, Sony, Toshiba, Alienware, etc. The collective PC world probably puts out, conservatively, 1,000 PC's for every one Mac sold. Unless Apple teams up with an OEM to manufacture a low end Mac Apple's market share has nowhere to go but down. And before someone gives me the speech about how market share doesn't matter tell that to Palm. Their reasoning is the poster child for why market share IS important. The platforms are different enough that parallel software development is expensive. So lets see. If I had to make a choice would I go with a platform that has a market and mind share of 95% or a market share and mind share of 5%. Even if you are looking purly at the numbers the PC platform represents a better chance of selling a copy of your software then on a Mac or even Linux for that matter.
And please. Get off your high horse. Real computer my butt. I guess the entire business world that has standardized on the PC aren't using real computer but fisher price toys.
SiliconAddict said:
um, sorry, that figure is precisely called the "market share." at 3%, apple ships 1 Mac for every 33 computers shipped. apple market share is not 0.1%, not even "conservatively."
also, businesses will use whatever gets the job done and what they use does not say anything about quality. (why do you think many businesses are still using win 98? because it still gets the job done for them.) if fisher price toy could get the job done and was cheaper, then businesses will use that. business use just means it's competent for the price, that's all.
I think on the advertising issue, the way to get people to look at the Mac is not to advertise the mac itself, but the software that runs on the Mac. I think Apple should team up with software developers and run ads for the Mac version of office, Mac games, etc. It doesn't directly promote the Mac, but dislodges all of the popular myths about what Macs can't do.
Huh???AirUncleP said:
What does your post have to do with my post that you quoted? I don't understand. (I'm not Bill Gates, and I doubt Bill is registered in these forums anyway.)Sing it brother
*Far* too many fanboys on this site have no experience outside of there mac boxen. I have:
-A Dell Latitude LS Ultralight laptop (which, size-wise, crushes anything apple offers)
-An old (4 years!) Dell desktop running Debian as a server
-A Dell Workstation running XP Pro for development
-A 15-inch AlPowerbook
So Dell has been pretty good to me. The desktops, while not as high quality as a powermac, have held up well physically. The Latitude LS was probably the best tech purchase I have ever made. (Unfortunately, lately it seems like Dell has been cutting corners on their laptops.) And the cost of the three dell machines together was around the same as the cost of the powerbook.
I love my powerbook, but, if you want to know why apples market share is so low, there's your reason.
Anyway, interoperation between windows and osx is so good now and x86 hardware is so inexpensive that I think it is worth it for any technically curious person to have both. And if windows give you the creeps, just throw linux or *BSD on it. Free your minds, fanboys.
Cheers,
prat
brhmac said:
*Far* too many fanboys on this site have no experience outside of there mac boxen. I have:
-A Dell Latitude LS Ultralight laptop (which, size-wise, crushes anything apple offers)
-An old (4 years!) Dell desktop running Debian as a server
-A Dell Workstation running XP Pro for development
-A 15-inch AlPowerbook
So Dell has been pretty good to me. The desktops, while not as high quality as a powermac, have held up well physically. The Latitude LS was probably the best tech purchase I have ever made. (Unfortunately, lately it seems like Dell has been cutting corners on their laptops.) And the cost of the three dell machines together was around the same as the cost of the powerbook.
I love my powerbook, but, if you want to know why apples market share is so low, there's your reason.
Anyway, interoperation between windows and osx is so good now and x86 hardware is so inexpensive that I think it is worth it for any technically curious person to have both. And if windows give you the creeps, just throw linux or *BSD on it. Free your minds, fanboys.
Cheers,
prat
jwhitnah said:
And thats what really pisses me off. Apple is horrible at respecting consumers money. Lets take a look at Dell.
Dell releases a computer at say $1500. 2 months alter its at $1400, another 2 months later its at $1100. Every 2-3 months Dell introduces a better machine at the same price point....either faster CPU, better memory, GPU, etc.
Apple on the other hand:
Releases a new computer at $2500. 2 months later....$2500.....6 months later $2500. It stays the exact same price until its replaced, and it takes 6 months or LONGER for apple to update their line. Not only does Apple update their line every 6 months, they typically replace the entireline....making a $2500 investment a month earlier completely worthless.
Sure, most consumers don't know about this business practice, but unless you buy it the day Apple announces it (and they actually ship on time) I have considered them during these Jobsonian years to have horrible business practices because they really do not respect the consumer.
brhmac said:
Here here. The truth hurts for Apple fans (and that includes me, Big Time) on this one. I've been able to convince maybe 4 or 5 friends to switch to the Mac (and they always thank me), but Apple does not make it easy. The only way people are gonna switch is from people like me, who take the hour or so to explain why an Apple computer is actually a good value/investment. Does Apple really think that people are just gonna "get it" all by themselves? They need a machine that comes close to what Dell and the like are offering, and then people may begin to even consider it as an alternative. The original iMac did just that, but they have forsaken the role of the original iMac. And I don't care how you spin it, Apple does not come even close to the specs on the Dell for speed and price...
I'm not going to say Apple wins company of the year with consumers, but.... What the heck are you talking about here? Why does it become completly worthless? It's still usable, and probably could be sold used for a decent price. For whatever reason Mac's hold there value check out eBay. I could sell my dual G5 right now on Ebay for like $100 less then I bought it from Apple months ago. (I did get ADC discount on the original purchase)
Actually I stand corrected browsing around eBay i could sell it and make $200+. Hmmm....
dguisinger said:
Actually I stand corrected browsing around eBay i could sell it and make $200+. Hmmm....
Apple and advertising
Apple apparently shot the lot when they made their 1984 ad. Since then, their advertising has been dismal to mediocre at best. Even the iPod ads are just amusing little things and convey very little information- veritable cream puffs. It is baffling that OS X has not been mass marketed: the security features alone, forget ease of use, are simply too compelling to ignore, yet that is exactly what Apple has done. Their whole advertising program, if you could call it that, is off-center and has given them a very poor return on their investment. One wonders where Apple really does want to go in the future. They are certainly keeping Apple computers a secret. The success of the iPod aside, that in and of itself, is absolutely NO reflection of the capabilities of the company. I can only wonder, what the hell are they thinking when they produce extraordinarily expensive product, albeit of the highest caliber, then fail miserably in telling the world about it? I think Apple shareholders should demand an explanation from Apple for failing to barely ever approach Dell's advertising 'prowess,' which as we all know, is in your face, all the time.
Apple apparently shot the lot when they made their 1984 ad. Since then, their advertising has been dismal to mediocre at best. Even the iPod ads are just amusing little things and convey very little information- veritable cream puffs. It is baffling that OS X has not been mass marketed: the security features alone, forget ease of use, are simply too compelling to ignore, yet that is exactly what Apple has done. Their whole advertising program, if you could call it that, is off-center and has given them a very poor return on their investment. One wonders where Apple really does want to go in the future. They are certainly keeping Apple computers a secret. The success of the iPod aside, that in and of itself, is absolutely NO reflection of the capabilities of the company. I can only wonder, what the hell are they thinking when they produce extraordinarily expensive product, albeit of the highest caliber, then fail miserably in telling the world about it? I think Apple shareholders should demand an explanation from Apple for failing to barely ever approach Dell's advertising 'prowess,' which as we all know, is in your face, all the time.