Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
Answer to your first question, yes they do, saying people can just give up 5-10mins once a week looking for a wallet in the house is like asking people to stop sending emails and go back to hand writing and posting a letter.
[doublepost=1567050349][/doublepost]

They need location data as you are not only looking for your tile but also looking for every tile around you to help people find their items as they are only bluetooth and not gps. They are using your phone as a middleman. The location is to send the location of detected tiles, not you specifically. You can't do that unless you have location services always on, but since its iOS you can still disable always on in system settings but that would mean you're no longer making Tile worth it to you and others who also use it.

My comment was really about the quoted privacy policy from Tile that NutMac had included in one of his earlier posts. The statement that was the deal breaker for me reads as follows...

"We may share your Personal Information (including your Location Information and your Tile devices' Location Information) with our third-party service providers or affiliates (e.g. cloud-based and hosting services, technical service providers, consultants, mail carriers, communication agencies and customer support providers) in order to provide, improve, and promote the Services on our behalf.

For example, we may disclose Personal Information to our service providers in order to enable them to communicate with you on our behalf. We may also disclose Personal Information to platform providers, such as Facebook, in order to permit such providers to serve ads and promote the Services on our behalf on such platforms. To the extent possible, your Personal Information will be stored in hashed or obfuscated form.

The Services may also enable you to share your Personal Information with our third-party partners (“Partners”) in connection with the products and services offered by such Partners, with your permission. Any information shared with a Partner will be subject to the Partner’s then-applicable privacy policy. We’re not responsible for the content, privacy or security practices and policies of any Partner. To protect your information we recommend that you carefully review the privacy policies of all Partners before sharing any Personal Information."
 
  • Like
Reactions: iGeneo
Or take advantage of... like slipping it on someone they want to track or stalk.

How about a parent who has Alzheimer's and setting up a geofence so you know they are safe inside! And if they do go out you can track them down so you can make sure they stay safe!

As one who had to sleep on the floor by my parents door to make sure I knew they didn't slip out at night it was hell for me being woken at every hour and then trying to get to work when I had someone come in to watch them during the day.

So yes! I would want to stalk a sick parent or even my pets if they escape out of the house.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: pianophile
Find my keys? Find my wallet? Are we so A.D.D. that we need tech to do the light lifting for us too? At this rate, the screen generation is going to have full blown dementia by their fourties.
Exactly what I was thinking.
Sacrifice my privacy for iOS 13 because some idiot cant find his wallet every morning.
[doublepost=1567082110][/doublepost]
It used to be that if you lost your phone or your wallet, it was no big deal. Now your whole life is on there. More features to protect them are good.
How so?
My wallet has been unchanged for 20 years, in fact, it has gotten smaller since the invention of credit cards.
CC, ID, maybe a 20 dollar bill. What else do you need in your wallet that is your "whole life"?

Your phone? what's that, you'll lose all your contacts? if you back it up once a year you'll have 95% of your contacts still.
If you own a mac, chances are you'll have all your conversations saved through iMessage. Or even iCloud.
If i lost my phone i get a new one and plug it into my computer and poof, its a spitting image of the one i lost. but.. i also dont lose my phone
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: snek
Are you planning to live past 50? If you do, you are going to be in for a really, really big surprise.

Already passed that milestone. In fact, both parents had Alzheimer's in their late seventies. So I know what age-related mental decline brings. I also know that consumer tech toys can't fill their needs. People need human intervention even to live independently. No amount of security cams, FaceTime, auto pill dispensers, iWatches, Tile beacons, etcetera are going to compensate for a failing mind.
 
I started buying Tiles a few years ago. I now realize how little I can't find "X" item. I normally find whatever I'm looking for pretty quickly. The few times I've needed to use the Tile (wallet, remote, etc), it has been really great.

Would be neat to have an Apple alternative, as I trust Apple on privacy more than any other Tech company (well, Nintendo more, but they don't get into this side of Tech).
[doublepost=1567087161][/doublepost]
How do you lose an iPhone to begin with?

Kids.
 
"Find My Self" .. If you are lost you can just find your self.

Basically if I have an iOS 13/macOS Catalina device it will be use to track other people devices? Do I have an opt-out for this? I don't want to become a tool to track other person.

Why??
Do you want to steal my phone, turn it off, & not get caught?? That’s the only scenario I can think of where you wouldn’t like this feature.
If you stole my phone, hopefully an acquaintance would swing by that has an iOS device and didn’t disable that feature & I'd find my phone in your possession anyways.
 
Do people repeatedly lose those items to warrant a wide net like Apple's solution? I imagine people more often misplace those items in familar places—not lose them in the wild. If that's a habit, they need self-awareness or medical attention, not a safety net.

As alarmed as the public is about privacy errosion, and as often as headlines reveal liberties taken by big consumer tech companies, you'd think people would think twice about allowing those companies to add more features that involve yet more surveillance.

Implying that people who would find this useful need medical attention is extremely condescending.

I say this in the nicest way possible: get off your high horse. Everyone has their specific use cases and finds value in different things, even if you personally don’t.

The logic you used can be applied to just about any product if you’re snide enough.

“Who needs an Apple Watch when you can check the time on your phone? If you’re so concerned about the time and getting notifications on your wrist, and are unable to track your own fitness, then you need medical attention- not a device that contributes to your problem.”

My point is that everyone is different, and liking/wanting something that you don’t like/want doesn’t automatically equate to something being wrong with them.

I just think it’s better to keep and open mind and not be so dismissive about things. Let’s not forget how people were dismissive about iPhones in the beginning... and smartphones in general before that.
 
Find my keys? Find my wallet? Are we so A.D.D. that we need tech to do the light lifting for us too? At this rate, the screen generation is going to have full blown dementia by their fourties.
Overly relying on technology, the help of others or A.D.D. doesn't cause dementia. But you can always personally opt out of these modern conveniences if it bothers you so much.
[doublepost=1567091701][/doublepost]
Do people repeatedly lose those items to warrant a wide net like Apple's solution? I imagine people more often misplace those items in familar places—not lose them in the wild. If that's a habit, they need self-awareness or medical attention, not a safety net.

As alarmed as the public is about privacy errosion, and as often as headlines reveal liberties taken by big consumer tech companies, you'd think people would think twice about allowing those companies to add more features that involve yet more surveillance.
So have you memorized all of your passwords? Do you use notes or writing tools? Do you own a calendar? Have you ever asked someone to remind you about something?

Since you're here and presumably a computer user, you are already doing all of these things already. The fact that a tracker can be connected to many physical and personal devices doesn't make it any different than that. Self awareness is a spectrum. Some of us care very much, some care very little and others are facing memory loss. All deserve a safe and simple way to find their devices.
 
"Can be accessed" is slightly exaggerated. All another phone can get from it is "I'm nearby and my code is xxxxxxxxxxx". The other phone then sends to Apple "there's a phone near location ********** and it's code is xxxxxxxxxx" without identifying itself in any way.
It's even less exploitable than that - what the other (relaying) phone sends to Apple is "there's a phone whose device id hashes to yyyyyyyyyy and that phone's encrypted location is zzzzzzzzzz" - it doesn't have to identify itself, or the location.

Apple can't decrypt zzzzzzzzzz (the relaying phone used the public key broadcast by the target phone to encrypt their shared current location), and neither Apple nor the relaying phone can un-hash yyyyyyyyyy to find out who/what that other device is. Apple just stores the yyyyyyyyyy => zzzzzzzzzz pairs in a giant database for some period of time.

Also, yyyyyyyyyy is a value that changes periodically (one guess is every hour, though it sounds like that hasn't been announced) - it changes in an unpredictable pattern based on a secret seed value known only by several Apple devices owned by one person (in order for this whole scheme to work, you need to own more than one participating device - iPhone, iPad, Mac, maybe the Watch?). So even if BadActor/Agency were to work out the device hash for a target user (say they had an agent across the room who sniffed the BlueTooth traffic), that won't tell them where said individual was an hour ago, or where they are an hour from now, when the device will have moved on to another unguessable hash. The hashing of the device id works sort of like 2FA, using a secret seed value (shared among a user's devices) and (likely) the current time (to the minute or hour, or some other granularity) and a particular device's device id, to compute yyyyyyyyyy.

Those devices (that one person owns) - and only those devices - know that secret shared seed value, and the private key needed to decrypt locations. Apple only has a warehouse yyyyyyyyyy => zzzzzzzzzz tuples. When one of a person's devices goes missing, they use their other device to do a Find My search. That device says, "Apple, here's a list of recent yyyyyyyyyy hash values, please give me any corresponding zzzzzzzzzz (encrypted location data) values". It gets back a list of perhaps a few dozen zzzzzzzzzz values. These are encrypted. It tries to decrypt them, all using the private key that only the owner's devices know. Now, it may only be able to successfully decrypt some of them (a given hash value could potentially have been generated by your phone today, and by someone else's phone last week). No matter, it discards any that don't decrypt properly, the rest give it a validated list of "your sibling device D was very near location Z at time T" points, and it can draw a map for the user to interpret. All without anyone but the owner's devices ever having access to the location information in any useful way.

Apple keeps a big database of yyyyyyyyyy => zzzzzzzzzz pairs, with a timestamp on each one, it uses the timestamp to expire out the key/value pairs after some period of time (otherwise the database would grow unmanageably large). If someone (say a local or foreign government agency) demands information, all Apple can give is a pile of yyyyyyyyyy => zzzzzzzzzz pairs that are of no use to anyone but the device's owner - a demanding agency can't make heads or tails of it, there's no easy way back from the encrypted/hashed tuples, unless you have one of the owner's participating devices.

From the articles I've read that describe the procedure, it sounds pretty foolproof and safe (it depends, of course, on how well Apple implements it all, but Apple seems highly motivated to get it right). All the "oh noes! Apple will track everyone's location and bad guys/governments will use this to track me" chatter is coming from people who have only read the headline (or information-free articles) and made a lot of incorrect assumptions.
 
Last edited:
Implying that people who would find this useful need medical attention is extremely condescending.

I say this in the nicest way possible: get off your high horse. Everyone has their specific use cases and finds value in different things, even if you personally don’t.

The logic you used can be applied to just about any product if you’re snide enough.

“Who needs an Apple Watch when you can check the time on your phone? If you’re so concerned about the time and getting notifications on your wrist, and are unable to track your own fitness, then you need medical attention- not a device that contributes to your problem.”

My point is that everyone is different, and liking/wanting something that you don’t like/want doesn’t automatically equate to something being wrong with them.

I just think it’s better to keep and open mind and not be so dismissive about things. Let’s not forget how people were dismissive about iPhones in the beginning... and smartphones in general before that.

If you have a behavior or lifestyle problem you're only putting a band-aid on the problem if you rely on something that is an enabler. There's nothing condecending or rude about pointing out a behavior that has possible medical explanations and treatments. If you constantly misplace things, chances are your behavior impacts other things.

Yes, I have strong opinions. More importantly, I don't embrace every shiney new idea, promise or product. I ask myself what the potential side effects or costs could be. That's a benefit of age and experience. Even your own example of the iPhone's reception validates my skeptic nature. Despite the smartphone's virtues, the connected lifestyle it spawned is riddled with harms that weren't predicted.

I wouldn't dismiss an idea that solves a bigger problem than the problems it creates. This isn't one of those ideas.
 
  • Like
Reactions: snek
[QUOTE="CarlJ, post: 27668029, member: 29900"If it's $1/month, and you lose a $1,000 phone, that's 83 years worth of subscription payments.

I'm not arguing that it should be subscription-based or not, nor the amount, but your comparison seems to have large holes in it.

(I could imagine it being a small charge, like $1/mo, that was thrown into various bundles as a "freebie", or being something free, a benefit of being an Apple customer - other phone companies might have trouble matching it.)[/QUOTE]

Umm that's one hole and yours has an even bigger one it's an App called Find My and its free.
 
So have you memorized all of your passwords? Do you use notes or writing tools? Do you own a calendar? Have you ever asked someone to remind you about something?

Since you're here and presumably a computer user, you are already doing all of these things already. The fact that a tracker can be connected to many physical and personal devices doesn't make it any different than that. Self awareness is a spectrum. Some of us care very much, some care very little and others are facing memory loss. All deserve a safe and simple way to find their devices.

Recalling where you placed your wallet or keys is not analogous to committing hundreds of unique passwords or appointments. Your wallet and keys are—two items—don't change and are used every day.

If someone habitually misplaces the same item, that's a behavior issue, not a lifestyle demand that requires a tool like Apple is proposing. The same people probably drive the same route to work everyday without using a GPS to get there. The same people are probably careful to lay their phone in the same locations day after day.

If you have a handicap that can't be treated and would benefit from an aid, fine. But I'll wager the majority of people don't need beacons routinely to find their essentials or valuables. Which begs the question: If Apple only pursues challenges of mass prevalence, how is this one of them?
 
I've never lost my phone. If I did, that's what find my phone or ping from the apple watch is for.

One thing that annoys me: As far back as my first Pebble watch I would get a buzz on my wrist warning me when I left my phone at home, the restaurant or wherever. As soon as the watch lost the Bluetooth connection I got an alert on my watch. Still can’t do that with the 4th generation Apple Watch. WTH Apple?
 
This is just like Milwaukee Tool’s “One Key” and their “Tick”. Would be interesting to know when Tile started doing it.
 
How come this article does not mention a possible Ultra-Wide-Band integration?
UWB offers centimeter-grade industrial 3D-tracking and is supposed to be integrated into iPhone XI.
If Kuo is right, Apple Tags would most definitely have UWB integrated to even being able to deliver the accuracy needed to display positional data with AR in a meaningful way.
 
We need a find my AirPod case. It's only partially useful to find the actual AirPods when they are out of the case. However, I have the most difficult time finding the AirPods after I have put them in their case.
 
Why??
Do you want to steal my phone, turn it off, & not get caught?? That’s the only scenario I can think of where you wouldn’t like this feature.
If you stole my phone, hopefully an acquaintance would swing by that has an iOS device and didn’t disable that feature & I'd find my phone in your possession anyways.
If i steal your phone i will turn it off and go to my Faraday cage room and turn it on there. :) i will then 3d print your face using data taken from pictures from your social media accounts. Using your 3d printed face i will unlock your phone and check if you have some compromising pics or vids that i can use to blackmail you. :)
 
If i steal your phone i will turn it off and go to my Faraday cage room and turn it on there. :) i will then 3d print your face using data taken from pictures from your social media accounts. Using your 3d printed face i will unlock your phone and check if you have some compromising pics or vids that i can use to blackmail you. :)

Lol, well then... that’s both a check & a mate to you sir.
 
If it can use every iOS device as part of the mesh network, the hit rate should be much much higher than tile.

Exactly. And higher by a massive amount, probably tens of thousands of times higher.
[doublepost=1567154051][/doublepost]
I desperately want them to come out with this.

Tile needs to die.

Tile was a great idea. I was even one of the backers for it on Kickstarter and I’ve had them since launch.

But after using them for all these years, I’ve grown to dislike them. The batteries don’t last worth a damn, and they put off making a rechargeable or replaceable battery for so long because they want to milk everyone for money.
Then they finally do it and change their business model to Subscription.

I’m done with them. They are trash and greedy bastards.

I love when Apple sticks their nose into other industries because they always disrupt it in a very positive way. And in some cases, put obsolete companies out of business who over stayed their welcome. All for the better.

I hope one day, Apple is the only company I need in my life. I don’t like monopolies, but if it’s done right, it may not be a bad thing.

I had a tile competitor, also via Kickstarter (cant recall the name, not sure they are still around). Aside the basic failings of that device, and similar to tile, the issue with a mesh service is it relied on the hugely unlikely chance another customer would pass by. It being on IOS would be a complete game-changer.
 
  • Like
Reactions: iGeneo
This is in theory great stuff, can't wait to use it on my keys and wallet. Actually lost my keys about a year ago, never got em back. Including car keys.

In practice I worry about people getting these inexpensive trackers to spy on others' locations. Oops dropped a tracker in the ex's car. Kids. Etc.

Also, they can make this with some sort of tile-like device but the AirPods can't passively relay location natively? Or that will also come with iOS 13?
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.