Apple's T2 Chip Has Unpatchable Security Flaw, Claims Researcher [Updated]

[johannnn]

Another reason why Apple Silicon is a horrible idea. Apple isn't ready, willing, or able to do the groundwork necessary to keep their chips secure. Get used to the Mac going from one of the most secure platforms out there to being ridden with horrible, unpatchable bugs and security exploits.

It's one thing when you can make the OS a walled garden, like with iOS. When you can control the software, you don't need to worry about the hardware being buggy. But unless we're going to have the Mac App Store be the only source for Mac apps, get used to having your computer pwned on a daily basis once Apple Silicon is a reality.

Lol? Intel has tons of flaws. And just because of this single exploit, then Apple should never ever manufacture their own chips? MacBooks seems perfectly safe as long as I don't plug in a bad usb-c cable. As long as you don't buy the usb-c from some weird guy in the hoods, you're be fine.

1 theoretical flaw vs 100 known security advantages.

 

[farewelwilliams]

Another reason why Apple Silicon is a horrible idea. Apple isn't ready, willing, or able to do the groundwork necessary to keep their chips secure. Get used to the Mac going from one of the most secure platforms out there to being ridden with horrible, unpatchable bugs and security exploits.

Patently false. Such a stupid comment. Apple sold over a billion iPhones (their core business) and you're saying they're not taking necessary steps to keep their chips secure? Sorry, but that's one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard on this forum.

 

[ArPe]

Intel chips and BIOSes were patched. The CPU contains a mini Linux based OS.

In a T2 based Mac there are a number of ways to patch and mitigate an attack even if a ROM can’t be patched.

 

[simonmet]

Yikes.

Also, I find it extremely disappointing that every time a security researcher voluntarily notifies Apple of such threats—be they patchable or otherwise—and after no doubt spending a lot of their own time uncompensated researching them, the response from Apple is always silence; or (if you’re lucky) a long, protracted delay before they even acknowledge your effort with a reply.

That’s quite pathetic really. The least they could do is get someone to call this guy personally to thank him and assure him that it’s being looked into. Perhaps even keep him in the loop on progress. From a public relations perspective that is the right thing to do. And Apple wonders why some people just go straight to the media instead! I don’t feel motivated to bug-test for Apple because of this.

But by the looks of things there’s nothing they can do and our Macs aren’t as secure as Apple claimed!

 

[ytk]

Patently false.

Well, there is the small issue of the recent “unpatchable security flaw”, but I guess you have an explanation?

 

[aaadktda]

I really hope Apple fixes this.

Reading this post reminded me about the comments in topic about the incredible feat of engineering regarding the touch ID in the power button and how people argued that unlike other manufacturers Apple actually makes things very very secure.

https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...of-engineering-according-to-apple-vp.2258600/

 

[ytk]

Patently false. Such a stupid comment. Apple sold over a billion iPhones (their core business) and you're saying they're not taking necessary steps to keep their chips secure? Sorry, but that's one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard on this forum.

iOS is a walled garden. Apple has 100% control over not only their own software, but the entire ecosystem of third-party software than runs on their platform.

You think this is somehow applicable to Macs? Is that because you think that Apple should and will control the entire Mac software ecosystem, or is there some reason why things will magically work out that I'm not seeing?

 

[otternonsense]

Having an Intel CPU and an ARM chip (T2) is not good, causes bugs and whatnot

ARM Macs will incorporate the T2 chip functionality into the SoC, making the Mac more stable.

And what happens until then? Are we just supposed to just keep buying new Macs with each generation until the next one gets it right, like the whole spiel with the Butterfly keyboard? Wouldn't that be a dream for Tim.

 

[Bug-Creator]

(meltdown spectre)

And yet those exploits get fixed or patched,

No not really, they got dealt with on the OS or maybe BIOS level, but the problem is still there in HW and once an hacker gets hands on with the HW all those measures are null&void.

Same as with this T2 fault, you won't be able to hack a Mac over the net, maybe not even by inserting an USB device you will most likely need to do some disassemble and soldering.

 

[ytk]

And what happens until then? Are we just supposed to just keep buying new Macs with each generation until the next one gets it right, like the whole spiel with the Butterfly keyboard? Wouldn't that be a dream for Tim.

Ideally, yeah, you just upgrade every year or so. That's pretty much what Apple Silicon is all about.

 

[farewelwilliams]

Well, there is the small issue of the recent “unpatchable security flaw”, but I guess you have an explanation?

Their core business is selling a billion iPhones which uses these chips so they are 100% "ready, willing, or able" to take necessary steps to do so. And judging by the amount of Intel and Qualcomm chips out there that are still unpatched from several months old exploits, Apple's chips amount to less people affected by this hack which ranks Apple higher in overall security compared to the rest of the market.

 

[User 6502]

Well that’s quite embarrassing ?

 

[otternonsense]

Ideally, yeah, you just upgrade every year or so. That's pretty much what Apple Silicon is all about.

LOL ok, Tim. That's exactly what I'm working for, to waste on a new workstation iteration annually.

 

[derekamoss]

Lol? Intel has tons of flaws. And just because of this single exploit, then Apple should never ever manufacture their own chips? MacBooks seems perfectly safe as long as I don't plug in a bad usb-c cable. As long as you don't buy the usb-c from some weird guy in the hoods, you're be fine.

1 theoretical flaw vs 100 known security advantages.

Here's the think though and I'm not sticking up for Intel or AMD by any means. They have had DECADES of experience making silicon which is there only business really and STILL have flaws. Apple has only had maybe a decade experience making silicone, and not really MAKING silicone but adapting someone else's silicone, which is only a PART of their product portfolio, and am supposed to think they are going to do a better job with security at the silicone level???? Yeah OK.....

 

[H2SO4]

How many exploits and hacks have we seen on Intel/AMD chips? How many on non-Apple ARM? How many on support chips (SSD-controllers, WIFI/4G-modems)?

How many in Win/Android vs macOS/iOS?

In the end nothing is ever gonna be 100% safe for ever, but so far Apple's track record is quite good.

Not sure but is it an Apples to Apples comparison you're making?

If Apple have released 3 chips and one has gone down that's 33% fail. If Intel has released 300 chips and one has gone down that's 0.33%.
Paints a different picture doesn't' it.

 

[farewelwilliams]

iOS is a walled garden. Apple has 100% control over not only their own software, but the entire ecosystem of third-party software than runs on their platform.

You think this is somehow applicable to Macs? Is that because you think that Apple should and will control the entire Mac software ecosystem, or is there some reason why things will magically work out that I'm not seeing?

You're just giving reasons why Apple is in a better position to take steps to secure their chips. Check out all the millions of Android users still using compromised phones with Qualcomm chips simply because their phone no longer receives any updates.

On the other side, Apple released fixed a 2019 exploit on their Mac lines and released updates for devices dated as far back as 2011 (including obsolete Macs).

 

[Bug-Creator]

If Intel has released 300 chips and one has gone down that's 0.33%.

Spectre/Meltdown/etc are "useable" in Intel (and others) chips spanning a decade (or more).....

 

[ytk]

Their core business is selling a billion iPhones which uses these chips so they are 100% "ready, willing, or able" to take necessary steps to do so. And judging by the amount of Intel and Qualcomm chips out there that are still unpatched from several months old exploits, Apple's chips amount to less people affected by this hack which ranks Apple higher in overall security compared to the rest of the market.

But 100% of their ability to manage issues has to do with controlling the software ecosystem. How many iOS jailbreaks have gone unfixed except by forcing an OS update—that then cannot be reverted?

If you want MacOS to become nothing more than “iOS Pro”, and you just plan to upgrade every time Apple tells you it's time to put the “latest and greatest” on THEIR computer, then that's on you I guess.

 

[iosfan1991]

"For security reasons, SepOS is stored in the T2 chip’s read-only memory (ROM), but this also prevents the exploit from being patched by Apple with a software update. "

ROM is persistent (and can usually still be updated & reflashed on most hardware). Even if they mean RAM, then there still isn't anything to stop it being patched.

More detail is required here.

 

[H2SO4]

Spectre/Meltdown/etc are "useable" in Intel (and others) chips spanning a decade (or more).....

I actually asked you for numbers and you came back with none. That's telling.

 

[Kabeyun]

The whole existence of the T2 Chip is one big unfixable flaw that belongs in the Mac graveyard together with the butterfly keyboard and Touch Bar.

Not sure it’s fair to have these on the same list: unpatchable security exploit, unfixable hardware design flaw which may lead to unusability, top keyboard row you don’t personally prefer. But I do miss MagSafe.

Having an Intel CPU and an ARM chip (T2) is not good, causes bugs and whatnot

ARM Macs will incorporate the T2 chip functionality into the SoC, making the Mac more stable.

You’re saying that including an Intel and an AMD chip in the same computer is inherently defective? Do you have any technical expertise to back that up? Pardon me for saying so, but “bugs and whatnot” suggests you don’t.

 

[maflynn]

I was never a fan of the T2 chip, it's track record is less then stellar and this sadly only reinforces the idea that using proprietary components for security reasons may not be the best. Basically this is having the polar opposite affect of securing the computers.

 

[CrushRoller]

We have nothing but issues lately with bug after bug... i wonder why Apple doesn't spend more time testing their products anymore...

 

[JonaM]

Who the heck shuts off their laptop when not using it instead of just closing the lid?

The sort of person who'd actually be worried about this vulnerability!

 

[Moakesy]

Unless I've misunderstood this, you have to be physically with the machine, with a mailicous USB device plugged in, with the device already unlocked by the user of the device?

Then, once compromised, you can't read the data if user has encrypted data using FileVault?

If I were to walk in on the person with my machine and unplug the USB cable, normality is returned.

Think I'll keep this in perspective, rather than spouting rubbish about how careless Apple have been.