Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.

FirDerrig33

macrumors regular
Original poster
Jan 12, 2017
135
40
California
I have gone through having a bunch of PPC Macs and accessories and just wondering if what I have is still worth keeping or not:
1. Apple 23” Cinema Display with box
2. 15” PowerBook G4
3. iSight FireWire camera with box.

I don’t want to give these away but storing them just isn’t making any sense any more.

Thanks for any insights!
 
I have gone through having a bunch of PPC Macs and accessories and just wondering if what I have is still worth keeping or not:
1. Apple 23” Cinema Display with box
2. 15” PowerBook G4
3. iSight FireWire camera with box.

I don’t want to give these away but storing them just isn’t making any sense any more.

Thanks for any insights!
1. Yes, especially to me now. I have one 23" Cinema Display that died a few months ago. I've been waiting to get the cash to replace it.
2. Yes, they run about $50 to $100, depending on condition, accessories and whether you have the box or not.
3. I have two of these. With FW400 to 800 adapters they work perfectly fine with Intel Macs. I have both of mine hooked up, one to a MacPro and one to a Mac Mini. You can get $50 for one easy.
 
I have gone through having a bunch of PPC Macs and accessories and just wondering if what I have is still worth keeping or not:
1. Apple 23” Cinema Display with box

If one of those, as described, turned up on my local CL or Kijiji, I’d be contacting the seller with interest in buying it.

2. 15” PowerBook G4

As @eyoungren noted, probably in that range — with outliers, like the A1138, in completely working condition and/or already upgraded by the seller with an SSD.

3. iSight FireWire camera with box.

Heck, I bought mine locally in 2019 from someone trying to get rid of theirs, used and with box, for $40 (which is, in Freedom Dollars, somewhere around USD$25–30).

I don’t want to give these away but storing them just isn’t making any sense any more.

This is the time to upcycle them to folks who’ll have a use for them. You need that space for other things in your life and other folks have a need for using (or collecting) those items.
 
You should keep it for the next 30 years. It will be worth something by then hopefully. 😄

I am hanging onto my G4 PowerBooks, especially the Titanium ones for as long as possible. They are kept in a storage been so they are not in the way, but when I am feeling nostalgic, I just pull one out and play with it. Its hard to determine if the value will appreciate in the future like say an Apple Lisa or Macintosh 128K. For me personally, its mostly enthusiasm and honoring the history and lineage of the Mac. Its amazing that I have a brand of a product that has been through several architectural transitions. I like booting up my PowerBook G4 running Mac OS 10.0 and put it next to my M1 MacBook Pro running macOS 12 and see the changes that have occurred over the past 20 years.

The Mac has been a commoditized product for a long while now, even in its PowerBook days. Value of the hardware you have might be nominal because of the greater awareness of preserving these products. So, there might be a lot more users out there with vintage PowerBooks 10 or 20 years from now.
 
You should keep it for the next 30 years. It will be worth something by then hopefully. 😄

I am hanging onto my G4 PowerBooks, especially the Titanium ones for as long as possible. They are kept in a storage been so they are not in the way, but when I am feeling nostalgic, I just pull one out and play with it. Its hard to determine if the value will appreciate in the future like say an Apple Lisa or Macintosh 128K. For me personally, its mostly enthusiasm and honoring the history and lineage of the Mac. Its amazing that I have a brand of a product that has been through several architectural transitions. I like booting up my PowerBook G4 running Mac OS 10.0 and put it next to my M1 MacBook Pro running macOS 12 and see the changes that have occurred over the past 20 years.

The Mac has been a commoditized product for a long while now, even in its PowerBook days. Value of the hardware you have might be nominal because of the greater awareness of preserving these products. So, there might be a lot more users out there with vintage PowerBooks 10 or 20 years from now.
I have to disagree with you here. I'm really not sure they are going to survive that long.

I sent off a TiBook to a forum member here several years back. It was made in 2001 (400mhz) and survived two logicboard replacements, but ultimately when packed off it was in pieces. The case had crumbled and all that user was getting was any parts he could find from the mess.

I'm sure some Macs will survive, but I just don't see 30 years here. That's going to mean a Mac made in 2003 will be 50 years old. Maybe the metal survives, but I doubt you're going to have much more than a display piece.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Amethyst1
I have to disagree with you here. I'm really not sure they are going to survive that long.

I sent off a TiBook to a forum member here several years back. It was made in 2001 (400mhz) and survived two logicboard replacements, but ultimately when packed off it was in pieces. The case had crumbled and all that user was getting was any parts he could find from the mess.

I'm sure some Macs will survive, but I just don't see 30 years here. That's going to mean a Mac made in 2003 will be 50 years old. Maybe the metal survives, but I doubt you're going to have much more than a display piece.
If my 400 MHz Ti PB4 still boots 20 years later, there is a very high chance it could very well still work 10 years from now. As long as I take good care of it. My fear is the screen might fail first.
 
If my 400 MHz Ti PB4 still boots 20 years later, there is a very high chance it could very well still work 10 years from now. As long as I take good care of it. My fear is the screen might fail first.
As I said, some will survive that long. Yours just might do that. But these computers were mass produced. Solder, in particular, becomes more brittle with age. It's susceptible to temperature variations and flexing. Plastic components will age, which is the logicboard and most of the components on it.

When you power up you put temporary high stress on a system (one of the reasons I leave all my systems on 24/7). Do that to a 50 year old computer that's been sitting and something other than turning on and booting could happen.

You might very well have a 50 year old TiBook that boots 30 years from now and maybe some museum somewhere will want to talk to you then. I'm just saying that the odds are against you no matter how well you treat your computer.
 
Is “HFS apocalypse” the 2037 thing?
I think you're talking about the Year 2038 Problem, and this is a completely different problem, that on February 6, 2040, HFS and HFS+ run out of their date range. For some reason, the HFS date range starts on January 1, 1904, so most of the range is wasted.

I don't actually know what happens when both problem dates pass for these old Macs, but I can't imagine most will be around by then.

Oh, that's fun, a quick check tells me that they only solved the 2038 problem on Mac OS with 10.6. So that's two problems to probably never actually look forward to in real hardware.
 
Yeah, there are a few date issues. I remember after changing the PRAM battery I had to use a third-party CDEV to set the date because Mac OS versions prior to 9 (I think) use a 2-digit year in the Control Panel. If you just enter "23" then it sets the date to 1923.
 
  • Like
Reactions: repairedCheese
I think you're talking about the Year 2038 Problem, and this is a completely different problem, that on February 6, 2040, HFS and HFS+ run out of their date range. For some reason, the HFS date range starts on January 1, 1904, so most of the range is wasted.

Cheers.

Drawing from the opening summary of that entry, 1901–2038 is the range which a 32-bit integer between -2³¹ and +2³¹ can represent (with 1970 being the zero); 1904–2040 being, for whatever reason, 2–3 years after 1970, suggests the same — though like you, I don’t understand why a date in the early-to-mid ’70s was selected as HFS/HFS+ zero point.

On a couple of my Macs I’ve had for ages, I have seen a few created/modified dates on directories and files as late as February 2037, but never anything later than that.
 
  • Like
Reactions: repairedCheese
I actually didn't know about the 2040 date thing, I'd naively assumed that since xnu has long-since been using 64-bits internally and is immune to the 2038 problem, HFS+ would be doing the same.

@Wowfunhappy Is ZFS on osx immune to this issue? Guess about a decade from now I'll have to set up a zfs partition. Or since I think hfs support is implemented at the kernel layer, could also just patch or recompile the kernel to reinterpret timestamps that far back as being from 2040 onward. Hopefully some people smarter than me will have figured it out by then.

Edit: I think HFS support might even be implemented as a kext, not even as part of the kernel itself (com.apple.filesystems.hfs.kext). And it's open source so that makes things easier!
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: repairedCheese
Right you are, see


More info for people interested in zfs internals and on-disk format


Last I checked you can't use zfs as the boot volume on osx though, so you'd probably still need to patch the HFS kext anyway.
 
If anyone has a VM handy, what happens on HFS+ if you set the date to 2040 and start creating files? Do things just wrap around, does it saturate out (maybe they have some check for this in there), or does osx just freak out entirely?
 
Thank you, that is very interesting. I also found this answer which corroborates:


It's quite possible that even on newer systems, within carbon libs somewhere there are still 32-bit timestamps so they just decided to play it safe and forbid going past 2038.

This is going to be quite annoying to solve since it's not only hfs that will need to be patched, but also userspace things as well then.

(Also note to whoever is going to take on the task of doing this when the time comes: check if the HFS sources provided by apple are even complete. I recall in 10.7 they added HFS+ compression, which may or may not be included as part of the source dump).
 
Actually even more interesting. I just tried on my mavericks machine a

```

touch -t 205012121212 foobar
```

to create a file with timestamp that far in the future. `ls -la` back gives `Dec 12 2050 foobar` as expected. So the situation is more intriguing than I thought, even though HFS+ doesn't support it, the system is still somehow dealing with it correctly. Anyone got any clues as to how that's even possible, or if I'm missing something obvious?

Edit: Still doesn't make sense, based on https://github.com/apple-open-sourc...96d7297069bf84d42b30d3c/hfs/core/MacOSStubs.c any time that wraps around should be returned as a unix epoch when converting from hfs time to bsd time. Maybe there is some caching going on at the kernel layer which is thus bypassing hfs entirely?

Edit 2: Haha yes got it! It was indeed caching. Do this on a removable media, then when you remount date gets reset to Dec 31 1969 as you expect. And just eyeballing it, the fix to patch the HFS layer is really simple, just update the 2 functions to convert between hfs time and bsd time. From what I can see the source is relatively complete and includes compression, but worst case we can even just hotpatch the kernel. We can reallocate the [1904, 1970) range to representing [2040, 2106) and beyond that everyone on this forum will be dead so we don't have to worry about it. The only downside is that if you use the HFS drive with another machine which doesn't have the patch installed, the date will get reset to unix epoch. But that's the best we can hope for anyway. Someone needs to update that stackexchange answer, it is wholly incorrect on all levels. I also find it amusing that apple knew that hfs timestamps before 1970 epoch couldn't be represented in unix anyway, but for some reason decided to just throw away that extra headroom instead of reallocating it.

That will only leave fixing the rest of userspace. @Amethyst1 what happens if you set the date via terminal instead of syspref? (via unix date command)
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Amethyst1
Cheers.

Drawing from the opening summary of that entry, 1901–2038 is the range which a 32-bit integer between -2³¹ and +2³¹ can represent (with 1970 being the zero); 1904–2040 being, for whatever reason, 2–3 years after 1970, suggests the same — though like you, I don’t understand why a date in the early-to-mid ’70s was selected as HFS/HFS+ zero point.

On a couple of my Macs I’ve had for ages, I have seen a few created/modified dates on directories and files as late as February 2037, but never anything later than that.
Valid proof finally that time centers around the year I was born (1970).

Thanks!!!!
 
>>Drawing from the opening summary of that entry, 1901–2038 is the range which a 32-bit integer
Two subtly similar issues. 2038 issue is when signed int32_t timestamp is used to denote seconds since unix epoch (1970). This will overflow on 2038. HFS uses unsigned int32_t denoting seconds since 1904. If unix did uint32_t instead, they could prolong the issue until 2106. It just so happens that HFS did the decision of correctly choosing unsigned timestamp but then insanely deciding to move the epoch back to 1904 making such a decision effectively useless.
 
  • Like
Reactions: repairedCheese
Valid proof finally that time centers around the year I was born (1970).

Thanks!!!!

Well, except for HFS/HFS+ dating, which seems to centre around the time I was born! :D

All levity aside, maybe it’s time to stir up a new thread on the PPC or Early Intel Macs forum simply titled The Years’ 2038 and 2040 Problems.


EDIT to add: There is now a link to such a discussion!
 
Last edited:
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.