Are you paying for your college education?

[jefhatfield]

i had two basically easy situations...1) parents paid for education up through bachelor's, 2) most of the units were done at cheaper state schools

but i feel for those who have to spend a lot more money, parents or their own, on a private university...but in time, it will most likely be worth it since generally speaking, the private university graduates tend to get better jobs than the state funded public university grads (and a lot of that can be attributed to "who" you meet at the connection-oriented private schools)

some majors, even highly respected ones like MD/PhD medical researchers, may never recover the costs of ten or more years of education, but the world is definitely made a better place by them...same goes with highly educated/graduate school alums who go into the clergy and have a higher calling

where i live, a lot of third world missionaries and peace corps workers get their master's degrees at a very expensive private school and many of these graduates know they will never make good money in their life and spend a lot of their future in third world conditions striving to get food and clean water to millions of starving people

and a graduate education is often common among those who work low paying jobs helping the mentally and physically challenged

for most people, education is worth it, and the more you have, either the more you can make, or the more you can help those who are not as fortunate as you

 

[Music_Producer]

Wow... now that's something. Is it a good medical school?

Oh yeah, almost all the schools there are terrific.. the education I've had.. geez.. I mean the faculty really put their hearts into it. When I started off med school.. I flunked the first year because I really didn't study hard enough (hey I was into music.. and producing remixes!) On the verge of giving up, a few teachers noticed that and talked to me about it and really made me think differently. Teachers are more like family members.. and there's that mutual sense of respect. I don't see that out here.

 

[joepunk]

I'm still amazed that schools allow students to graduate with C- and/or a GPA of 2.0. Granted, it can be difficult at times for a student to barley pass a class with a C-. I don't know, how hard is it to really achieve somewhere around a 3.0 GPA?

 

[Chundles]

I'm still amazed that schools allow students to graduate with C- and/or a GPA of 2.0. Granted, it can be difficult at times for a student to barley pass a class with a C-. I don't know, how hard is it to really achieve somewhere around a 3.0 GPA?

What sort of marks (out of a hundred) do you need to get these letter grades?

What letter grade designates a pass?

I'm just trying to see what the differences are between the US and Australian grading systems. I go to a university with a high percentage of US students (beach uni - you guys flock to them) and many of them, when they get their first marks, seem very disappointed, yet we see their grades as generally good to solid. I'd just like to know what mark gives you a passing "letter" grade.

 

[Abstract]

This is simply my interpretation of the Aussie to American grading system, although I'm not going to guess at percentages, only letter grades, since Canada and America use equivalent letter grades, although the exact percentage required to earn the same letter grade is different. They are equivalent, so comparable.

high A to A+ is approximately a "High Distinction"
B to A (or A-) is approximately a "Distinction"
C to B is approximately a "Credit"
D- to C- is approximately a "Pass"

And the Americans at UoW are disappointed by their grades because of grade inflation in the US. To get a "High Distinction" in the US, which is equivalent to an A+ in the US, you'd need a 98% (and up) at many American schools. I'm not American (Canada, baby!), but that's my understanding for most US universities. Its crazy when they get a 66% (a "Credit") and are supposed to be happy about it, as they need a 65% to pass the subject in America (I believe). Of course, a 70% in England is equivalent to a "Distinction," while you only need 40% to pass (I believe), so it's different for everyone.

 

[Chundles]

This is simply my interpretation of the Aussie to American grading system, although I'm not going to guess at percentages, only letter grades, since Canada and America use equivalent letter grades, although the exact percentage required to earn the same letter grade is different. They are equivalent, so comparable.

high A to A+ is approximately a "High Distinction"
B to A (or A-) is approximately a "Distinction"
C to B is approximately a "Credit"
D- to C- is approximately a "Pass"

And the Americans at UoW are disappointed by their grades because of grade inflation in the US. To get a "High Distinction" in the US, which is equivalent to an A+ in the US, you'd need a 98% (and up) at many American schools. I'm not American (Canada, baby!), but that's my understanding for most US universities. Its crazy when they get a 66% (a "Credit") and are supposed to be happy about it, as they need a 65% to pass the subject in America (I believe). Of course, a 70% in England is equivalent to a "Distinction," while you only need 40% to pass (I believe), so it's different for everyone.

Thanks Abstract, that's what I figured. I was always amazed to see the americans getting upset about a 89% High Distinction - it takes a huge amount of effort and knowledge to get an HD.

So a D- to C- is roughly equivalent to 50/100 Pass here
a C to B is about 65/100 - 75/100 Credit
a B+ to A is about 75/100 - 85/100
an A upwards is about 85/100 and up.

I know they give an information session to the new students telling them not to be disappointed with their grades if they are getting 70's and 80's. To get a 50 you have to show that you have a good understanding of the course, an 85 means you have to show proficiency in the advanced levels of the course and often an ability to infer conclusions from abstract problems. Getting an 85 and up in a course means you have basically destroyed most of your course and could do the regular stuff with your eyes closed.

 

[~Shard~]

This whole "grades thing" gets me sometimes. I hear stories about how kids are getting second chances, even if they fail, or how some schools are doing away with grades, and everyone passes. What a load of crap. To quote a very successful businessman, "Your school may have done away with winners and losers, but life did not. In some schools they have abolished failing grades and they'll give you as many times as you want to get the right answer. This doesn't bear the slightest resemblance to ANYTHING in real life." These kids need to learn about failure in school, or else they're going to be in for the shock of their life once they get into the real world.

 

[Angelus]

I don't know how some of you do it. Here in Ireland we have a government scheme whereby all irish undergraduates are entitled to free fees for their 1st degree. As it stands i'm a 4th year med student, who's still at home(my university is only 3 miles down the road) and i honestly don't know what i'd do if my fees weren't paid. Given how time consuming clinics and study are i'd probably just be selling my soul to banks, getting loan after loan.

 

[devilot]

This whole "grades thing" gets me sometimes. <snip> To quote a very successful businessman, "Your school may have done away with winners and losers, but life did not. In some schools they have abolished failing grades and they'll give you as many times as you want to get the right answer. This doesn't bear the slightest resemblance to ANYTHING in real life." These kids need to learn about failure in school, or else they're going to be in for the shock of their life once they get into the real world.

Yes well, I don't know about the schools you've attended, but at my high school, people would betray their closest friends (friends from grade school) to get an A over an A minus. At my high school, people would attempt suicide if they don't achieve the grade they desired. At my school it is common to see hordes of sobbing students in the hallways when grades are made known because they received a B+ instead of a form of an A. In fact, several students from my high school through the last decade have made the school infamous for 'cheaters,' students who are so desperate to get the 'right' grades, they cheat with all sorts of ways (from getting AP exam answers by calling friends in Singapore-- the time difference ya know), to using a keystroke device to get the teacher's password then edit their own grades on the teacher's computer).

If you ask me, the people in my community need a whole different kind of a reality check. They need to realize there is more to life than grades and school...

As for schools getting rid of the grading system... I personally don't know of any. If anything, I know of one well known university which has gone from the no-grade to the grading system-- UC Santa Cruz. A university long laughed at and dismissed as a school for 'stoners, druggies, hippies, and vegans,' a place discredited as having no academic merit. And so now they are using the standard grading system. Too bad, quite a few of the professors are having a difficult time transitioning and they (the faculty) 'make' the university, in my opinion. UCSC has an incredible astronomy program and an amazing feminist studies program (recently had its name changed from women's studies; and they boast one of the most influential woman of the 20th century as the head of the department-- Angela Davis.

 

[Chundles]

I don't know how some of you do it. Here in Ireland we have a government scheme whereby all irish undergraduates are entitled to free fees for their 1st degree. As it stands i'm a 4th year med student, who's still at home(my university is only 3 miles down the road) and i honestly don't know what i'd do if my fees weren't paid. Given how time consuming clinics and study are i'd probably just be selling my soul to banks, getting loan after loan.

That's how it used to be here. Oh man, how I wish it were true of today. The people who got the benefit of free tertiary education are now the ones trying to make as much cash out of it as they can ie. our bloody politicians.

In my opinion, anyone who aspires to be a politician and who believes they have the intestinal fortitude to do what it takes to become a politician, doesn't deserve the job. It's the idealists with a cause and strong morals (conservative or otherwise it doesn't matter, they just need an unwavering belief in what they think) that truly deserve to represent the people - however it's exactly these people who fail in their quest because to get to the top you need to put aside everything you believe in and work only for yourself.

 

[~Shard~]

If you ask me, the people in my community need a whole different kind of a reality check. They need to realize there is more to life than grades and school...

Yes, very well said. I didn't mean to say that grades are the most important thing, so sorry if I came across that way. It's more the concept that "grades don't matter cuz we'll pass you anyway" that bugs me. Sounds like that wasn't an issue at your school, nor was it an issue at mine. I guess I just equate it sometimes to something along the lines of my cousin's soccer team. He's 5, and every game they play is a tie. No matter what happens, every game is a tie. Now this is great for 5 year olds, as their focus should be having fun, and who cares about winning? However when I see that type of mentality being applied to higher learning, where we are supposedly developing and preparing people for the real world, it just doesn't cut it.

And I know there aren't may cases of this, but I have heard reports of some schools doing away with the grading process, at least as an experiment if nothing else. Not a good idea in my books. Plus, you need some sort of goals to strive towards, and some sort of competition in that respect. If people get carried away and feel that cheating is the only way to accomplish this, than I feel sorry for them, and they'll probably learn their lesson the hard way too.

 

[Artful Dodger]

Yes I'm paying and as of now I'll be changing my major back to what I started with since my back injury (which may be a blessing). I am the only one out of all my friends that is paying for an education since their parents have paid for their college days but none of them are working in the fields that they went to college for (go figure).

 

[jefhatfield]

Yes well, I don't know about the schools you've attended, but at my high school, people would betray their closest friends (friends from grade school) to get an A over an A minus. At my high school, people would attempt suicide if they don't achieve the grade they desired. At my school it is common to see hordes of sobbing students in the hallways when grades are made known because they received a B+ instead of a form of an A. In fact, several students from my high school through the last decade have made the school infamous for 'cheaters,' students who are so desperate to get the 'right' grades, they cheat with all sorts of ways (from getting AP exam answers by calling friends in Singapore-- the time difference ya know), to using a keystroke device to get the teacher's password then edit their own grades on the teacher's computer).

If you ask me, the people in my community need a whole different kind of a reality check. They need to realize there is more to life than grades and school...

As for schools getting rid of the grading system... I personally don't know of any. If anything, I know of one well known university which has gone from the no-grade to the grading system-- UC Santa Cruz. A university long laughed at and dismissed as a school for 'stoners, druggies, hippies, and vegans,' a place discredited as having no academic merit. And so now they are using the standard grading system. Too bad, quite a few of the professors are having a difficult time transitioning and they (the faculty) 'make' the university, in my opinion. UCSC has an incredible astronomy program and an amazing feminist studies program (recently had its name changed from women's studies; and they boast one of the most influential woman of the 20th century as the head of the department-- Angela Davis.

us central coast locals have ucsc and cal state monterey bay to choose from and it depends who you talk to when it comes to "reputation"

both universities are extremely liberal and geared mostly to the liberal arts and soft sciences, but do have some science programs which are good (but dwarfed in the traditional sciences (physics, chemistry, engineering) and all other subjects, in academic reputation, by cal and stanford (in the much more populated bay area)

...the stoner image or hippie image still applies to ucsc but remember many of the great intellectuals of the past several decades had no problem with smoking pot or experimenting with drugs...it really has no bearing on how smart or influential one is

the grading system that used to be at ucsc did not make it anymore or less accepted as a university as the school is a university of california campus (which is the upper tier state funded school and usually requires a high school gpa of 3.0 or higher) as opposed to the more accessible california state university campuses which are fairly easy to get into (and will usually take high school students who are 2.0 students like i was )

 

[devilot]

us central coast locals have ucsc and cal state monterey bay to choose from and it depends who you talk to when it comes to "reputation"

True, but I guess coming from the high school and familial background I have come from; they do tend to look down on UCSC as well as the Cal States (most of my family either went to Cal, Stanfurd-- see where my loyalties lie , Harvard, or Georgetown; people at my high school considered Cal to be their 'backup' college). I myself went to Cal first year outta high school, hated it and am now putting around at a CC while my boyfriend goes to UCSC (and I'm considering transferring there for the feminist studies program) and that's why I get so defensive about the school-- because I'm sick and tired of defending it amongst my own family (and I guess, myself).

the grading system that used to be at ucsc did not make it anymore or less accepted as a university as the school is a university of california campus...

No, it did make it less accepted. Ask many of the previous alumni who had a horrific time applying to grad schools based essentially only on letters of req. without the standard grades/GPA for those schools to also look at. That is one of the reasons that UCSC has cited (to incoming students during orientations) for transitioning from non-grade to graded in order to better facilitate the application process as more and more students intend to go on to graduate schools.

 

[jefhatfield]

True, but I guess coming from the high school and familial background I have come from; they do tend to look down on UCSC as well as the Cal States (most of my family either went to Cal, Stanfurd-- see where my loyalties lie , Harvard, or Georgetown; people at my high school considered Cal to be their 'backup' college). I myself went to Cal first year outta high school, hated it and am now putting around at a CC while my boyfriend goes to UCSC (and I'm considering transferring there for the feminist studies program) and that's why I get so defensive about the school-- because I'm sick and tired of defending it amongst my own family (and I guess, myself). No, it did make it less accepted. Ask many of the previous alumni who had a horrific time applying to grad schools based essentially only on letters of req. without the standard grades/GPA for those schools to also look at. That is one of the reasons that UCSC has cited (to incoming students during orientations) for transitioning from non-grade to graded in order to better facilitate the application process as more and more students intend to go on to graduate schools.

oh my god, you sound asian (i am japanese american)

or you sound like you went to ( california central coast's) york school, santa catalina, or robert louis stevenson prep schools

most asians, or private prep school people/parents/students i meet think of it this way, as a tier/caste system

1) harvard, yale, oxford, cambridge, university of paris, etc...basically spend a lot of money and go east, including europe

2) cal berkeley or ucla (the backup schools)

3) california state universities

4) california community colleges

the main thing for a college student is to 1) go to college after high school, and then 2) graduate at least with an AA or BA, and then possibly think about a master's or phd

and the older you get, the less a high end school, like harvard or stanford, means in the working world as work habits and accomplishments are what counts on a resume of workers 30 years old or older

there are plenty of corporate success stories/entrepreneur success stories among people without a college degree, and there are plenty of people with an advanced degree who never made it in anything they pursued

 

[jefhatfield]

women's studies

yeah, angela davis is at ucsc, and if you are serious about studying with her, follow her to any school she decides to teach at, including going to podunk u

in graduate school especially, some students were more interested in studying with certain well known professors in the field, and would choose the school accordingly and be less worried about the school's overall reputation

i met a lady who was broke and drove a banged up car and she was a graduate student who studied under angela davis at ucsc and would not trade it for the world...though i am a male and politically centrist, i was very pleased to hear that ucsc got angela davis on faculty

 

[devilot]

oh my god, you sound asian (i am japanese american)

Guilty as charged-- I'm an ABC (American born Chinese). Just to note, in my family... if I came home w/ an A minus (the lowest grade deemed 'acceptable') my parents asked why I didn't get an A. If I came home w/ an A, they asked why not an A+, and if I came home w/ an A+ they asked if I had the best grade in the class.

or you sound like you went to ( california central coast's) york school, santa catalina, or robert louis stevenson prep schools

Nope, impacted by the other Asian stereotype-- must be frugal, so public high school... the infamous Saratoga High.

most asians, or private prep school people/parents/students i meet think of it this way, as a tier/caste system...

True story, one of my relatives from my dad's side (all in Taiwan) came over... She was literally shocked silly. From the way my father spoke, she honestly thought America had only two universities: Cal and Stanfurd.

the main thing for a college student is to...

Yes, yes. I realize that.

yeah, angela davis is at ucsc, and if you are serious about studying with her, follow her to any school she decides to teach at, including going to podunk u

in graduate school especially, some students were more interested in studying with certain well known professors in the field, and would choose the school accordingly and be less worried about the school's overall reputation

She is also known for her fiery temper and quickness in rejecting students. She brutally shot down one of my English teachers who attempted to enroll in one of Davis' courses. Told her until she became a woman of color she wouldn't be welcome in her classes. Actually, there's also a superb woman high up at Stanfurd who'd be interesting to study under as well, Estelle B. Freedman. Anyhow... enough geekiness from me.

 

[jefhatfield]

don't let your relatives scare you into good grades or getting into just stanford or cal

at one time, perhaps, it was necessary for an asian to get a BA just to compete with a white person with a high school diploma, and have a master's to compete with a white person with a BA

but in this day and age, there are laws (civil rights act, 1964) and cultural norms which forbid being racist against minorities

i wish i saw more asian musicians, creative writers, and artists and not just as a monolithic group of scientists and engineers...and not just in america, but in asia, too

it's sad that most people can only think of yoko ono, akira kurosawa, jackie chan, and yo-yo ma as the only prominent asians in society who are not scientists or engineers or some sort of numbers geeks

to really be accepted in society, any person would have to see a race of people as a well adjusted and diverse group of individuals and the asian americans can greatly improve their lot by becoming more creative and letting loose a little bit

i am scared of hate crimes against asians and seeing asians as being scapegoated as overly ambitious just as the jews were in nazi germany

 

[Chacala_Nayarit]

I took out loans for living expensives, full-time tuition, and even took a couple trips to Mexico during xmas breaks. Then I tried working full time, taking 12 semester credits, and it got me on antidepressents.

Three years later, I am 40,000USD in debt. I never see tax returns. I want to go back in September, 2006, but I have to pay everything up front. Although putting up 5,000 USD for a semester (Sep to Dec) is feasable after I work for six months on the boat in Alaskan waters. I should have enough for the Jan to May semester too.

 

[dops7107]

Reading all this makes us in the UK feel a little humbled. In October 2006, undergraduate courses will cost a maximum of £3000 a year for UK and EU nationals. In 1998 it was £1000, and there was uproar at that: this more recent bitter pill was even less well-received. But in comparison to what you guys pay... a bit of a bargain.

I partly paid for my BA with student loans which I have now started to pay off. My parents helped out a bit too, which is expected when they calculate how much loan you are eligible for. I think average debt after a three year degree runs at around £12,000 now - what's that, about $22,000? At the lower end of what you lot are coughing up, anyway.

My PhD was totally paid for - in fact, I came out in the black, with my scholarship easily paying my living costs and allowing me to pay off some student loan. It's not so hard to get a decent amount if you want to do science, but many arts/humanities PhDs are self-funded. And that *does* get expensive.

 

[Chundles]

the main thing for a college student is to 1) go to college after high school, and then 2) graduate at least with an AA or BA, and then possibly think about a master's or phd

What's an AA?

And isn't the idea to graduate with a degree in your field of study? For example, I'm doing an honours degree in Chemistry so I'll graduate with a BSc (Hons) - Chemistry. If I went into Law straight out of High School I'd be coming up on my last year looking to graduate with an LLB/BSc if I did a science degree as part of the double (you have to do a double degree with Law here if you are doing it as your undergraduate degree). Is this the same for you guys or do you all just get a BA but with different majors?

Here we call a BA a "Bachelor of Attendance" and many of the toilets have "BA degrees, Please Take One" scrawled in permanent pen over the toilet paper dispenser.

It's a well known joke here that when presented with a problem, the BSc holder will ask "why does that work?" the person with a BEng will ask "How does that work?" the person with a BCom (Accounting) will ask "How much will that cost?" whilst the person with a BA will ask "Would you like fries with that?"

 

[Whyren]

What's an AA?

And isn't the idea to graduate with a degree in your field of study? For example, I'm doing an honours degree in Chemistry so I'll graduate with a BSc (Hons) - Chemistry. If I went into Law straight out of High School I'd be coming up on my last year looking to graduate with an LLB/BSc if I did a science degree as part of the double (you have to do a double degree with Law here if you are doing it as your undergraduate degree). Is this the same for you guys or do you all just get a BA but with different majors?

AA = Associate of Arts Degree, mainly a 2-year/community college degree. I think the BS/BA depends on the college here in the US; for instance, here I'm majoring in both music and biology, but both will be Bachelor of Arts degrees...for the most part, I'm not sure the differentiation matters too much, perhaps some in terms of specialization.

As for the grading thing earlier, my college actually doesn't even bother with +/-...it's straight A(90+), B(80-89), C(70-79), D(60-79), F (<60) (actual percentage varies by class). In contrast, in high school, I finished many of my classes about 100% in points (crazy, huh?).

 

[dops7107]

What's an AA?

Dunno.

Is this the same for you guys or do you all just get a BA but with different majors?

Depends on the university (I'm guessing we're talking UK here). Normally science degrees award a BSc, and arts degrees a BA. However, some older universities, which typically do not offer dual honours degrees, give a BA for science (I have a BA in biology, for example), unless you are doing a four year course with Masters, then it's an MSc, MEng or MChem etc. We don't really talk about "majoring" - as far as I am aware, anyway. In the dual honours degrees with a dominant subject (e.g. Law with French) - I guess that's the same thing as majoring - the letters I think correspond to the major subject. I'm not sure, but if you were to do Biology with French (it does exist), you would get a BSc.

 

[maya]

I was resourceful and for that very reason I owe $ 0.00 to the gov't. Yeah me.

 

[~Shard~]

I was resourceful and for that very reason I owe $ 0.00 to the gov't. Yeah me.

Yeah, it's nice not owning anyone money, isn't it?