Yes and no. Apple won that round and may win the next round also...getting all of Epic banned from the App Store.
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Arizona Advances Bill That Will Let Developers Skirt Apple's In-App Purchase Rules
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They tried a retaliatory move and the court, correctly, blocked it.
Imagine having to build and host an infrastructure to host your App? Or a "freemium" app costs thousands of dollars to host because. Or you have to figure out how to appeal to a customer base. Apple has already done that for you and charges a cheap commission for the services rendered.
Maybe I am old school but I don't believe in paying more than $50 for a "complete" game. And I want it complete from the start - just like the good-ol days. So how this all plays out matters very little to me personally, but I do know that an Apple, Sony, Google, Nintendo etc. does have a right to charge a fee for their services, whatever those services might be - and cannot and should not be forced to build inherently open platforms. Let them argue about what fee is fair all they want, but as long as they are being fair lets see some politicians kill the in-app-puchase (i.e. DLC) system in general for being inherently anti-consumer.
However, the original ban on Epic still stood, which is important. Whether it was "correctly" or not remains to be seen. Epic could find themselves out on the street.
I can't believe this would leave Apple out of pocket, they still have to deliver the app, use bandwidth and so on. It will lead to a charging structure that will end up costing developers more.
From what I read, the lobbyists in this case were mostly all gobbled up by MegaMonopoly AppleCorp
People are getting the villains and the heroes all mixed up here.
Excellent, this is good news for developers and customers alike since now they won’t have to mark up prices to get around apples share, or even take it out of the app entirely (like Spotify did).
Really the only loser here is apple but they’re technically losing money they weren’t entitled to in the first place.
Really the only loser here is apple but they’re technically losing money they weren’t entitled to in the first place.
Except... payments are only a small portion of the services Apple provides. You're forgetting all the other things Apple provides that myself (#46) and others have commented on.
You'd have a point if the App Store was simply a PayPal alternative. Yes... 30% is pretty high for a credit card fee.
But Apple provides more than just payment processing.
ONLY way out for AAPL is to reduce their Cut to a point that Third-Party App Stores AND/OR Payment Processing is irrelevant.
My best guess is that number is 5%.
And, I think it will come to that fairly soon.
And, very surprised AAPL didn't see the writing on the wall the past few years.
My best guess is that number is 5%.
And, I think it will come to that fairly soon.
And, very surprised AAPL didn't see the writing on the wall the past few years.
The additional things Apple provides need to broken out
That isn't difficult. Apple needs to get in front of this or they are going to get forced.
Momentum is just getting going and building.
Folks need to have a touch more "vision" here.
Just because something has "been a certain way", in no way means that's "the only way".
It doesn't even mean it's "the best way".
Apple, unfortunately, might simply need to be compelled to change at this point.
Changes to things like this aren't going to kill Apple or kill their App Store or torpedo the iPhone.
They'd love everyone to believe that -- trust me -- they'll be just fine, dandy and still UBER profitable.
Just because something has "been a certain way", in no way means that's "the only way".
It doesn't even mean it's "the best way".
Apple, unfortunately, might simply need to be compelled to change at this point.
Changes to things like this aren't going to kill Apple or kill their App Store or torpedo the iPhone.
They'd love everyone to believe that -- trust me -- they'll be just fine, dandy and still UBER profitable.
Here's a list from a developer... MacRumors user farewelwilliams
- we developers get up to 1 petabyte of user storage via CloudKit 100% free. Bear notes app does this and they manage 0 servers for their subscription-paid users.
- we could submit 1000 app and app updates in a year which translates to Apple paying about 1000 man-hours worth of paychecks at about $30/hr or ~$30k for app review
- we have free access to using Apple Maps instead of paying Google tons of money to use their mapping API keys (for those high volume users). this saves Yelp and Facebook a ton of money as well as small developers.
- we get many more new features every single year via the SDK compared to Android (like ARKit, Core ML, SwiftUI, Vision, etc... just to name a few).
- we get global distribution for free (including China, you know, where Google Play doesn't exist. also developers generally have to setup their own servers in China because of the great firewall, but if you used CloudKit, it just works without any extra setup).
- we get app store curated editorial with a chance to reach front page in front of 500 million customers a week.
- we have no credit card fees or international taxes to worry about
- Apple provides support to customers asking for refund for an app and app store support in general
- Testflight service is free (for public and private testing)
- app store automatically creates many different binaries of our app and distributes device-optimized versions to each customer. a 1 gigabyte app with many different permutations of versions across hundreds of servers around the world means Apple is hosting about several terabytes in the cloud for us from one single app
- push notifications/push notification sandbox servers
- Web SDK version of cloudkit/mapkit so that you can use it for a web version of your app
- Apple sign in
- Mac notarization service which improves trust by the user for downloading an app from the web
- yearly major releases of Xcode with new features
- analytics dashboard and crash reporting
- and the list goes on and on.
I ask you... do you think all that should just be free? Should a developer get to use all those resources and Apple gets nothing in return?
Apple may have to change how they bundle and charge for their developer offerings.
That's ok - could be great in fact - just different.
Alright let’s go point by point using Fortnite as an example:
Is it really "greed” when Apple:
creates the platform, creates the OS
Sensing duplicates here to fluff up the list? Making the OS isn’t really something that is worth 30%. Microsoft doesn’t take a 30% cut from Steam because MS wrote the OS.
provides XCode, maintains Swift
Barely used by Epic. The game runs on Epi’s own Unreal engine. The bulk of the work is stuff directly copied over from consoles with some visual tweaking.
makes the APIs
APIs are the easiest thing for devs to write, and the most fun/effortless. It has a reputation for being the work item everyone wants to steal.
runs the servers,
Actually Epic runs the servers for Fortnite, and vast majority of game assets are actually downloaded from their own CDN. App Store only stored a thin-ish client.
runs the store
Newegg doesn’t charge me 30% on purchases just because they happen to run their website.
manages users,
Again Epic maintains users in its own databases
handles payments, and calculates taxes in over 100 countries
Refer to Newegg reply
Look, you’re not wrong for many apps out there that use all of these, but one size doesn’t fit all, and Apple provided almost nothing that earns anywhere near 30% cut.
I can see that.
But then a developer has the right to NOT develop for iOS at all. Nobody is forcing them to.
Ahh - but now you've hit the problem.
When Apple & Google together control essentially the whole mobile device landscape...and we've acknowledged that using these platforms is essentially a requirement of modern life....that's when regulation becomes necessary because "not developing" for the only two platforms leaves unacceptable alternatives.
Societally - we don't want that so much.
This is what has to be navigated and is part of the origin of concerns with monopolies/duopolies/gatekeepers/rail owners/telecom spectrum control/power grids, etc.
That's fair.
But Epic was on stage at the iPad launch and Epic was happy to make a BILLION dollars in the App Store for almost 10 years. They KNEW the rules going into it. And now they have a problem with it.
I can see why "one size fits all" isn't the best idea, though. Perhaps different plans for different developers is the solution.
If Apple would simply charge less for the “privilege” to sell apps and services through their platform then this would be a non issue. It also doesn’t help that Apple shifting so much of its business operations overseas (Ireland etc) to avoid US taxation has aggravated many government officials.
Now that the Pandora’s box of this concept has been opened state taxation officials everywhere are very likely calculating the potential increase in revenues from shifting the retail sale of content and services away from Apple to some other independent but state specific system. This would allow state franchise tax boards to collect on sales tax and any company that then incorporates in the states in question would also pay annual income taxes.
As long as the numbers on the whole look better than the 30% Apple charges today then it’s a win-win for the state and the developer.
Apple being obtuse about their transactional surcharge just exacerbated and accelerated this conversation. And I’m sure that Epic games is lobbying heavily with state and federal elected officials to drive a similar agenda.
In my opinion 30% is too high as a baseline. They should consider offering splits or charges closer to 15 and 7.5% depending on the recurring revenue. Like a tiered reward system where the developer is rewarded for improved sales by lowering the charge. If this was in place it is highly unlikely they’d be getting the flak they are today and there would be little impetus for legislative intervention etc.
Now that the Pandora’s box of this concept has been opened state taxation officials everywhere are very likely calculating the potential increase in revenues from shifting the retail sale of content and services away from Apple to some other independent but state specific system. This would allow state franchise tax boards to collect on sales tax and any company that then incorporates in the states in question would also pay annual income taxes.
As long as the numbers on the whole look better than the 30% Apple charges today then it’s a win-win for the state and the developer.
Apple being obtuse about their transactional surcharge just exacerbated and accelerated this conversation. And I’m sure that Epic games is lobbying heavily with state and federal elected officials to drive a similar agenda.
In my opinion 30% is too high as a baseline. They should consider offering splits or charges closer to 15 and 7.5% depending on the recurring revenue. Like a tiered reward system where the developer is rewarded for improved sales by lowering the charge. If this was in place it is highly unlikely they’d be getting the flak they are today and there would be little impetus for legislative intervention etc.
Then I hope that these Developers wanting NOT to pay for Apple's / Google's 30% will ...
1. maintain all versions of their apps in their stores, all public websites that have them,
2. Willing to provide refunds or credits and a CLEAR set of instructions and criteria on
a) how to process a complaint of their app/services
b) how long will it take for refund/credit (and time of validity when granted),
c) what is needed to be povided by the End user?
d) are these rules, resolution and status of escalation are clear.
This will take MORE than the 30% developers have been paying. When developers are no longer able to maintain all sources of their software, and for sold/stolen apps they themselves have the resources and methods that are legal an fair in all countries are sought out without cloak/dagger moves hidden from the end user whom purchased their software/services.
3! A clear and DEFINED list of when a certain version will be maintained before forcing users to upgrade to the latest version of the app. When will existing prices be honoured for.
We pay for all these services through the fact the damn things cost like 1500 for a phone and 3500 for a laptop. Those prices buy us those privileges. It’s harsh and harmful to the market to go after the developers for such a huge chunk too
@atomic.flip
Yep - well said - they've just pushed and pushed and pushed and this was always the logical conclusion with that mindset.
Yep - well said - they've just pushed and pushed and pushed and this was always the logical conclusion with that mindset.
You’re absolutely right, and they obviously knew themselves that it was gonna start a fight, which is why they had all those legal docs prepared ahead of time. It’s a scumbag move and I won’t deny it BUT I just happen to agree with the point they’re trying to make.