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It's not about the constitution so much as "how we all collectively agree we'd like society to be".

This topic is veering towards a mass of the population wanting change.

That's how this place is supposed to run.
It's a good thing.

I would bet most Iphone users hjave no idea what Apple's cut is, don't cafre, and just wnat the damn thiing to work and stay connected to Twitter/Facebook/What's App or whatever is the hot social media app right now. As long as it works they don't care if Apple gets 1%, 10% or 90%.

And Aple's 30% cut is a whole lot better than the old way where developers were lucky to get 30% or had to hope people actually paid for shareware.
 
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TIL this guy makes up prices.

Macbooks are under $1. iPhones are as cheap as $600 NEW.

Stop making stuff up.
Lol everyone lives in the US I forgot, that's in Canadian currency. And not everyone's buying the cheap iPhones, I'd say it's probably evenly split. Don't be so insulting just because you disagree with me on something
 
Clearly I meant $1k, and not $1.

Your argument on pricing is flawed anyway.

Yeah you can buy an iPhone for $600 new but how many people do, the average selling price is nearer $800 and climing. The most expensive models currently sell the best

You can't just point to the cheapest product in a category and then tell someone they are making things up. The maxed out 12 pro max is very nearly 1500 and you don't even have to max a 16 inch MBP to hit 3500.

Also consider that is in USD, in Canada.. 12 Pro (not the Max) base model = $1500
 
Fine... bookmark this thread and we'll revisit it in 5 years...

And we'll see if there is some new platform that is as big as either iOS or Android today. I'm talking BILLIONS of users.

Look... I hear what you're saying. But Windows and Mac have kinda stood unopposed for over 30 years. The same will likely be true for iOS and Android. 😁

I'm really not counting on any new mobile challengers (nor is it the topic of this thread)

It will likely be Chinese and Global. :confused:
 
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Your argument on pricing is flawed anyway.

Yeah you can buy an iPhone for $600 new but how many people do, the average selling price is nearer $800 and climing. The most expensive models currently sell the best

You can't just point to the cheapest product in a category and then tell someone they are making things up. The maxed out 12 pro max is very nearly 1500 and you don't even have to max a 16 inch MBP to hit 3500.

Also consider that is in USD, in Canada.. 12 Pro (not the Max) base model = $1500
And that’s setting aside that the cheapest hardware isn’t going to have features that some apps need, like an app that uses ARKit that needs to test how it works with LiDAR data. Good luck getting LiDAR data out of an iPhone 11.
 
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Extremely disappointed to see this being advanced. I am worried to what this means for the customer (especially for privacy) and the small developer, especially since I was thinking about launching an app.
What exactly disappoints you so much? That a trillion plus dollar company (Apple) will have more difficult time exerting rent on digital goods and services they had absolutely nothing to do with creating? Don’t worry, Apple will be OK, and so will you.
 
What exactly disappoints you so much? That a trillion plus dollar company (Apple) will have more difficult time exerting rent on digital goods and services they had absolutely nothing to do with creating? Don’t worry, Apple will be OK, and so will you.
Disappointed by the apps that will force me to trust them with my credit card info that they will probably mishandle. Credit Card fraud will rise significantly overnight if this gets wide adoption.
 
What exactly disappoints you so much? That a trillion plus dollar company (Apple) will have more difficult time exerting rent on digital goods and services they had absolutely nothing to do with creating? Don’t worry, Apple will be OK, and so will you.

I think Apple went with 30% for the App Store all those years ago because they needed to get something from the developers and a nice simple flat rate is easy. And 30% was the same cut that the iTunes Store had before the App Store.

Apple could have charged literal rent and said "To be in the App Store developers must pay $50,000 a month"

Or Apple could charge a penny for every millisecond the server is actively transferring files or accessing an account.

But the flat rate is easier.

Is the 30% for Apple too high? And is the 70% for the developer too low?

Hell... when the App Store first opened... developers were thrilled!!! The 70% was WAY more than they made in the old days of software distribution. And it's all digital... no printing boxes and shipping DVDs. And it's a worldwide audience... and Apple handles all the currency conversions and taxes.

I see what you're saying though... people are buying digital goods that might not even come from Apple's servers. So why does Apple deserve a 30% cut?

Well... Apple was just using the old 30% rule from the early days of the App Store and the iTunes Store.

I guess the rules need to be updated. I think it has begun.

Perhaps Apple needs to rethink then entire process... and clearly define the following:

Apple's Role
The App Store's Role
The Developer's Role
The User's Role
etc

I just want everyone to be happy. There's all this talk of Apple being greedy... developers are upset that they're losing money to Apple... consumers are unhappy that apps cost too much...

There's gotta be a way where everyone is happy.
 
Folks need to have a touch more "vision" here.

Just because something has "been a certain way", in no way means that's "the only way".
It doesn't even mean it's "the best way".

Apple, unfortunately, might simply need to be compelled to change at this point.

Changes to things like this aren't going to kill Apple or kill their App Store or torpedo the iPhone.
They'd love everyone to believe that -- trust me -- they'll be just fine, dandy and still UBER profitable.
And this is a severely dangerous precedent. Why should Apple be forced to change? There are clearly alternatives - Android for the majority of the issues people have with Apple. This precedent could lead to the Xbox and Playstation needing to be having the same changes.

This seems like a slippery slope that leads to the elimination of capitalism. Apple is not doing bad things. They are not being a "bad" monopoly if you even consider them a monopoly. This isn't like the Microsoft case from the 90s where they were bullying Netscape, making sure OEMs provided IE only, and also impacting Sun Java too.

We simply do not know the finances for the App Store. It could be that 30% is about 95% of the cost of the App Store so they only have 5% of profits. Which a company does need profits. If all developers have what was provided before (1 petabyte of storage alone for every developer adds up)
 
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What exactly disappoints you so much? That a trillion plus dollar company (Apple) will have more difficult time exerting rent on digital goods and services they had absolutely nothing to do with creating? Don’t worry, Apple will be OK, and so will you.
Apple created the market, it’s their design, infrastructure, programming etc. For $99 and some sweat a dev has access to hundreds of millions of customers without worrying about infrastructure. 30% seems more than reasonable, not to mention customary.
 
and we've acknowledged that using these platforms is essentially a requirement of modern life
How exactly? Flip phones still exist in 2021. My grandparents have them. They don't need an iPhone or Android and it certainly is not an essential device.
 
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Ugh... this again.

Yes... I like competition.

Question for you... are YOU prepared for the only two viable mobile platforms to be iOS and Android for the next decade or more?

Because chances are... they will remain the only two.

:)
I have said this before and I will say it again, why can't we take just 10% of all this effort on bringing down iOS and Android and focus on getting some damn competition for internet service in the country as a whole. I ONLY have access to Spectrum. My grandparents in different states only have access to Spectrum. Why can't we get some movement here? Let's get some competition please because I have had nothing but issues with Spectrum.
 
I have said this before and I will say it again, why can't we take just 10% of all this effort on bringing down iOS and Android and focus on getting some damn competition for internet service in the country as a whole. I ONLY have access to Spectrum. My grandparents in different states only have access to Spectrum. Why can't we get some movement here? Let's get some competition please because I have had nothing but issues with Spectrum.

Oh I agree.

But there might be more ISP lobbyists than there are software lobbyists.

:p
 
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Apple created the market, it’s their design, infrastructure, programming etc. For $99 and some sweat a dev has access to hundreds of millions of customers without worrying about infrastructure. 30% seems more than reasonable, not to mention customary.
The access to these customers are through the internet, Apple is just playing “man in the middle”, and filter results. The AppStore is just serving as a App Search Engine, I see no benefit compared to searching on Google,Bing,DuckDuckGo or on some Game Review Site. Setting up an Updater, AMZN CDN and Website is not rocket science, a decent App/Game needs it anyway. I would prefer to avoid the 30% tax, and hand over the savings to customers.
 
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How exactly? Flip phones still exist in 2021. My grandparents have them. They don't need an iPhone or Android and it certainly is not an essential device.

If you don't think using smartphones and apps is nearly essential to modern life, I don't know if we can really have a good faith debate here.

Grandparents aren't a great example by the way -- that said, mine are in their late 80s and both have iPhones and iPads...FWIW

Cheers
 
This seems like a slippery slope that leads to the elimination of capitalism.

The problem with our system is that we don't have enough capitalism actually.

We need robust antitrust enforcement - not even new rules, literally just better enforcement of what's on the books-- and regulation of monopolistic behaviors.

In a capitalist structure, it's essential for the government to play those roles.

Let's all remember that there are no real "markets" that anyone would enjoy living within without regulations and rules to play by.

I have no clue why there is such vociferous defense of Apple....they don't need the help.

Guys you're going to be fine. Apple is going to be fine too.
There is no slippery slope here.
 
The problem with our system is that we don't have enough capitalism actually.

We need robust antitrust enforcement - not even new rules, literally just better enforcement of what's on the books-- and regulation of monopolistic behaviors.

In a capitalist structure, it's essential for the government to play those roles.

Let's all remember that there are no real "markets" that anyone would enjoy living within without regulations and rules to play by.
The reward for legitimate success is not more regulation where none existed before. Let the market speak and reward those who do a good job and those who don't fail. Capitalism is not about petitioning the government to make legal enterprise illegal.
 
The access to these customers are through the internet, Apple is just playing “man in the middle”, and filter results. The AppStore is just serving as a App Search Engine, I see no benefit compared to searching on Google,Bing,DuckDuckGo or on some Game Review Site. Setting up an Updater, AMZN CDN and Website is not rocket science, a decent App/Game needs it anyway. I would prefer to avoid the 30% tax, and hand over the savings to customers.
Nobody is stopping anybody from getting access to apples customers. However, the ios ecosystem is a closed opt-in ecosystem. At every step along the way, from vote with your dollars and henceforth enrolling in this opt-in ecosystem is voluntary. You want access to ios' hundreds of billions of devices you have to go through the App Store after paying your $99 to enroll in the developer program.

Nobody is stopping devs from setting their own market prices and even undercutting the competition or offered a free or freemium app. But Apple is within their right to charge a small commission on future sales as the barrier to entry for the ios app store is $99, plus sweat and knowledge.
 
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@SFjohn

John - Buddy - Friend

You're spending lots of time "downvoting".
Do you have a comment to add on the subject?

Love to hear your take!
It's a discussion forum - let's discuss!
 
No, it shouldn't be compulsory either.
Apple isn’t forcing anyone to be in their store. If you want side loaded Apps you already have Android & Jailbroken iPhones. One company is driving all this - Epic Games: “ Coalition for App Fairness, a group that includes companies like Epic Games, Spotify, Basecamp, and Tile”

Really this is about contract law. We’re a nation of laws right? Epic Games signed a contract with Apple making shittons of money, then broke it because Epic Games is GREEDY.

Apple is somehow unfair? $99 to become a developer, 15% fees on their app until they beak 1 Million in a year. Then it goes to 30%. Or the other way around developers make 85% of sales on the App Store, then 70% after they hit 1 Million. Apple is doing amazingly & everyone wants a piece of it because they are filled with envy & greed. Whether it be other corporations, states or countries.

Most people don’t even buy Apple products. No company can claim anything near Apple’s Environmental Credentials, security of personal Data, while staying customer focused & doing what they can to make the world a better, healthier place. The people that would delight in seeing that destroyed are despicable.
 
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Name me the country that has 25% payment processing alone.

And some of it is over generalising. Why should an EU specific Apps that offer Personal Teaching Assistance to group of Students be charged 30% ( Scrapped after pandemic ) when most of the thing you listed has nothing to do with them?

The core problem is the one size fits all and no way to fight for access. People are far too focused on the 30%.

Does your google not work? We can basically just blanket it with "Southeast Asia" and "Latin America" as a whole.

Here's Epic saying they don't cover payment processing fees because it can cost up to 25%:


Here's Valve demonstrating that in Asia 87.5% of all transactions are completed with non-standard methods to avoid fees such as these, requiring an infrastructure for redeemable cards.

 
We pay for all these services through the fact the damn things cost like 1500 for a phone and 3500 for a laptop. Those prices buy us those privileges. It’s harsh and harmful to the market to go after the developers for such a huge chunk too

Do you even really use smartphones before the iPhone and Android were first delivered? I don’t think you recall when developers had to 1) upload their software to various sites, or b) having to maintain each version that is uploaded to sites they’ve agreed to or running around with lawsuits and cease and desist letters to domain admins of rogue sites making a killing n not paying you for pirating your developer hard work.

N-Gage anybody?
N-Gage QD AND ALL THE GAME DEVELOPER houses that lost millions cause Nokia had several other devices running S60 that were perfect to run the specific ROM loaded on and downloading pirated games off of Symbian-Freak or countless other sites for various smartphone OS.

You guys really slept on 1998-2006 didn’t you?
 
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It's very good - Choice is good on this front.
If Apple has such a compelling offering, it will win out.

Apple is fighting these types of efforts so hard specifically so they don't have to compete.

Monopolists know that doing anything and everything to maintain a monopoly is better than having to compete.

Folks - I've loved Apple forever also, but C'mon.
Let's be honest about who and what they are at this point.

The honest thing is you can't have a monopoly on your own product. It's well established case law.

And as far as competing... they compete against Android for mobile app sales... and add in Playstation, Xbox, Steam, and Epic all for game sales.
 
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The honest thing is you can't have a monopoly on your own product. It's well established case law.

It's an interesting time for sure. The old style monopolies aren't really applicable anymore in the technology driven spaces and the law hasn't yet caught up. Very intriguing times ahead for years to come.
 
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