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AT&T Considering Modifications to Deadline for iPad Unlimited 3G Service Activations

JediZenMaster said:
Okay well you win then. I'm done. I proved my point. You stated that they didnt tell you that anywhere on the page and they did. Seems to me like you just have to be right so go ahead you win.

I have got better things to do than to let a device consume my life. That's something that i will leave to you. Oh and when you guys lose the class action law suit i will be chuckling.
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Liar. I never discussed that page at all. I referred only (and frequently) to the page discussing vacations and the "breakthrough" and cited text from that page verbatim. (www.apple.com/ipad/3g). A page that still lies. You can try to mischaracterize my argument, but don't think you're fooling anyone.
 
cmaier said:
Liar. I never discussed that page at all. I referred only (and frequently) to the page discussing vacations and the "breakthrough" and cited text from that page verbatim. (www.apple.com/ipad/3g). A page that still lies. You can try to mischaracterize my argument, but don't think you're fooling anyone.
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He's certainly not fooling me...
 
IPPlanMan said:
Not exactly...

http://www.apple.com/ipad/3g/

No-contract 3G service.
AT&T 3G Data Plans for iPad

Data per month Price per month
250MB $14.99
Unlimited $29.99
One month is based on 30 consecutive days, and starts at the date and time of your purchase.

In the United States, 3G service is available through a breakthrough deal with AT&T. You choose the amount of data per month you want to buy — 250MB or unlimited. If you choose the 250MB plan, you’ll receive onscreen messages as you get close to your monthly data limit so you can decide whether to turn off 3G or upgrade to the unlimited plan. Best of all, there’s no long-term contract. So if you have a business trip or vacation approaching, just sign up for the month you’ll be traveling and cancel when you get back. You don’t need to visit a store to get 3G service. You can sign up, check your data usage, manage your account, or cancel your service — all from your iPad.
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On the actual page where you buy it, it specifically asterisks it.
 
cmaier said:
Liar. I never discussed that page at all. I referred only (and frequently) to the page discussing vacations and the "breakthrough" and cited text from that page verbatim. (www.apple.com/ipad/3g). A page that still lies. You can try to mischaracterize my argument, but don't think you're fooling anyone.
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It really is a joy to see an actual attorney take on those who try to play-act the attorney role on the Internet.

You made a statement that I had a question about:

cmaier said:
p.s.: to be clear, what you'd be suing for is to be made whole. i.e.:, for a refund for your iPad, and any other costs associated with switching back to another carrier, etc. You can't force AT&T to offer the product forever. You can only be made "whole" again - i.e.: put back in the position you were in prior to starting this. Though, if AT&T committed fraud, that's a whole other ball of wax.
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Couldn't one sue for punitive damages? Or could one request an order of specific performance from the court compelling Apple to provide an equivalent plan? Making the customer whole in this situation could be difficult and would need to include refunds for purchases of iPad-specific software, movies, and music. It would need to include compensation for accessories such as aftermarket cases and chargers. And what of someone who spent hours of time converting CDs and DVDs to to iPad-compatible formats? Hours have value -- a fact not lost on most attorneys, I know.

Please note that I am asking general questions about civil law and am not seeking legal counsel for any specific situation or litigation in which I may become involved.
 
Punitive damages are almost never available under a contract theory. They may be available under a fraud or false advertising theory, however.

Specific performance is unlikely to be available as such remedies aremonly available if monetary damages are insufficient relief.

And, to be clear, i am not rendering legal opinions - just speculating on possible outcomes based on what we know. And I'm not acting as anyone's lawyer here :)

fmaxwell said:
It really is a joy to see an actual attorney take on those who try to play-act the attorney role on the Internet.

You made a statement that I had a question about:



Couldn't one sue for punitive damages? Or could one request an order of specific performance from the court compelling Apple to provide an equivalent plan? Making the customer whole in this situation could be difficult and would need to include refunds for purchases of iPad-specific software, movies, and music. It would need to include compensation for accessories such as aftermarket cases and chargers. And what of someone who spent hours of time converting CDs and DVDs to to iPad-compatible formats? Hours have value -- a fact not lost on most attornies, I know.

Please note that I am asking general questions about civil law and am not seeking legal counsel for any specific situation or litigation in which I may become involved.
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dstrauss said:
This addresses less than one-half of the real question. Steve Jobs (and Apple) represented I could get on and off this plan whenever I wanted without penalty. That's why I waited for a 3G iPad rather than jumping on the WiFi only model. Now, if I do not auto-renew every month, I will lose my unlimited plan. That is clearly a deceptive trade practices act, so I think Apple and AT&T better quickly re-think what grandfathering pre 6/7 iPads will really mean! :mad:
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Steve Jobs lied to us all when he made that announcement. He so wanted the iPad to destroy all notions that it would be a failure so he sold us on a dream to have that freedom knowing that it would be taken away. If he didn't know then he needs to quickly find a carrier that will let that plan live on their network. Or he could open his own MVO and offer that plan through Apple. None of this he will do because he's a crook,. If the "One More Thing" move tomorrow is iPads on Verizon, Tmobile & Sprint with great deals on data I will bow down to Jesus err Jobs but sadly, "One More Thing" will never be about doing the right thing for the consumer because he hates us.

:apple:
Don't Think.
 
netdoc66 said:
If the "One More Thing" move tomorrow is iPads on Verizon, Tmobile & Sprint with great deals on data I will bow down to Jesus err Jobs but sadly, "One More Thing" will never be about doing the right thing for the consumer because he hates us.

:apple:
Don't Think.
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Oh, if that happens, the feces will really hit the fan. Apple discontinues exclusivity, and AT&T responds by screwing over all the customers that made them all this money over the last, what 3 years? We are talking around a million customers (or more), are we not?

Note: I do find the timing of the new data plans, the new ETF, the new iPhone and WWDC to be a bit too close to be coincidental.
 
netdoc66 said:
Steve Jobs lied to us all when he made that announcement. He so wanted the iPad to destroy all notions that it would be a failure so he sold us on a dream to have that freedom knowing that it would be taken away. If he didn't know then he needs to quickly find a carrier that will let that plan live on their network. Or he could open his own MVO and offer that plan through Apple. None of this he will do because he's a crook,. If the "One More Thing" move tomorrow is iPads on Verizon, Tmobile & Sprint with great deals on data I will bow down to Jesus err Jobs but sadly, "One More Thing" will never be about doing the right thing for the consumer because he hates us.

:apple:
Don't Think.
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Oh really??? You actually think aapl and T offered a plan, then changed their minds (shot themselves in the feet) a month later? You think that was a better plan from their perspective than never offering an unlimited plan in the first place? You actually think these people are crooks and liars out to screw consumers? Get out much?

fmaxwell said:
Kind of makes sense that someone who prefers an unlimited plan being available would be pissed if AT&T took that option away.



I was planning to use the unlimited plan when I was on business travel or vacation and use the $15 plan when I was not. Are you willing to pay the $15 difference on those months when I'm at home? Are you willing to pick up the whole cost of the plan if I elect to leave the iPad at home for a multi-month launch campaign where I will have my laptop and WiFi access? Didn't think so.
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cmaier said:
We already bought devices that would make us happy if the seller lived up to the promise the seller made to lure us into buying them.
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"[L]ure us into buying them" is an overstatement and not the real legal problem, and you know that. That's the advocate's argument. If T had only offered the revised plan from the beginning, I doubt that sales of 3G iPads would have suffered at all. No contract and being able to switch on/off is a nice offer. It wasn't a lure. It was a screw up. T and aapl both have unnecessary PR problems over this, and as you've explained, legal problems as well. T can change the terms, but it needs to be reasonable. 6-12 months might be reasonable, but one month clearly is not. In fact, it's such a major screw up that you have to ask what were they thinking? What changed? What do they already realize they'll have to end up doing to resolve it? My bet is that T will end up grandfathering in pre-6/07 buyers/orderers (for 6-12 months). T Legal would realize this. T Legal also would have realized that the grandfathered group could have been limited to those who had already bought/ordered at the time of announcement, rather than enlarged to include the post-announcement pre-6/07 orderers. So why is it happening? What's really going on? What might be announced today which better explain what's going on?
 
mccldwll said:
"[L]ure us into buying them" is an overstatement and not the real legal problem, and you know that. That's the advocate's argument. If T had only offered the revised plan from the beginning, I doubt that sales of 3G iPads would have suffered at all. No contract and being able to switch on/off is a nice offer. It wasn't a lure. It was a screw up. T and aapl both have unnecessary PR problems over this, and as you've explained, legal problems as well. T can change the terms, but it needs to be reasonable. 6-12 months might be reasonable, but one month clearly is not. In fact, it's such a major screw up that you have to ask what were they thinking? What changed? What do they already realize they'll have to end up doing to resolve it? My bet is that T will end up grandfathering in pre-6/07 buyers/orderers (for 6-12 months). T Legal would realize this. T Legal also would have realized that the grandfathered group could have been limited to those who had already bought/ordered at the time of announcement, rather than enlarged to include the post-announcement pre-6/07 orderers. So why is it happening? What's really going on? What might be announced today which better explain what's going on?
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AT&T has to be anticipating some kind of major upswing in the use of data that directly relates to the release of the 4th gen iPhone. Even more so than normal. I think that Apple has more or less demanded that the new video chat be an standard, unlimited feature for all iPhone 4th gens (Apple would want to really push the video chat feature as THE standout feature of this phone, and would want it enabled by default on all the handsets for maximum exposure). I think AT&T complied with this, but told Apple that they HAVE to cap all other data. But AT&T hasn't been able to mention this key part of the whole thing (unlimited video chat) yet, since that would be revealing a feature of the new iPhone before Steve and Apple does. Like you state above, there almost HAS to be another piece to this whole thing. It's not just the new iPhone, as the majority of people getting them will be existing customers, so that's not a whole lot of "new" data traffic by itself. So I'm banking on the reason for the change being a feature of the phone itself (video chat), and the fact that Apple has told AT&T it HAS to be a standard, unlimited feature.
 
chris975d said:
AT&T has to be anticipating some kind of major upswing in the use of data that directly relates to the release of the 4th gen iPhone. Even more so than normal. I think that Apple has more or less demanded that the new video chat be an standard, unlimited feature for all iPhone 4th gens (Apple would want to really push the video chat feature as THE standout feature of this phone, and would want it enabled by default on all the handsets for maximum exposure). I think AT&T complied with this, but told Apple that they HAVE to cap all other data. But AT&T hasn't been able to mention this key part of the whole thing (unlimited video chat) yet, since that would be revealing a feature of the new iPhone before Steve and Apple does. Like you state above, there almost HAS to be another piece to this whole thing. It's not just the new iPhone, as the majority of people getting them will be existing customers, so that's not a whole lot of "new" data traffic by itself. So I'm banking on the reason for the change being a feature of the phone itself (video chat), and the fact that Apple has told AT&T it HAS to be a standard, unlimited feature.
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The new Phone may be much faster than 3Gs, which means more data. I disagree about the unlimited video chat--unless it's something you pay for--since data is data, and it costs. The high data use from new features certainly would explain tiered plans for iPhones, but why for iPads? Whatever the plans are on the iPhone side, it doesn't necessarily have to impact the iPad plans. One way video chat over skype to grandparents with iPads? Maybe a tiny 30 Pin video camera plug-in for conferencing? Some new iPhone feature just learned about last week (under wraps until last minute)? Should know shortly.
 
An AT&T customer rep sent me the following in an email on Friday:

"Our Smartphone data plans are changing as of 06/07/2010; however the iPad data plans have not changed, they are a prepaid service and we offer 2 options to our customer's. We offer 250MB for $14.99 and unlimited for $29.99. I am sorry for any confusion about this issue." -End email quote

Although the rep doesn't mention we can still stop and restart at $29.99, I do have it in writing from them that the iPad data plans are not changed (which, to me, means the stop and restart at $29.99).

I don't know who's doing the training/distribution of information of data plans at AT&T and Apple, but they're doing a horrible job at it.

Having said all the above, I believe AT&T is going to discontinue the ability to stop and restart unlimited at $29.99, but they're certainly adding to the confusion/anger by not coming out with a consistent message (Apple, you're silence is also making you guilty, so I hope you have something to say about the situation soon).
 
mccldwll said:
Oh really??? You actually think aapl and T offered a plan, then changed their minds (shot themselves in the feet) a month later? You think that was a better plan from their perspective than never offering an unlimited plan in the first place? You actually think these people are crooks and liars out to screw consumers? Get out much?
...
"[L]ure us into buying them" is an overstatement and not the real legal problem, and you know that. That's the advocate's argument. If T had only offered the revised plan from the beginning, I doubt that sales of 3G iPads would have suffered at all.
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I honestly don't know who is at fault and what their motivation was. But Apple was negligent if they did not contractually obligate AT&T to supply the $29.99 plan for a reasonable period of time, complete with the ability to stop and restart the plan at will. Apple entered into a contract with the consumer that guaranteed the availability of that feature when they very vigorously advertised and promoted that capability (3G unlimited whenever you want to order it for a month).

I find it highly unlikely that AT&T managed to come up with the new tiered service without considerable forethought and review with the legal department, marketing, etc. I would be very surprised if AT&T had not warned Apple of the impending change long before the press release went out to the general public. Not impossible, but unlikely. Highly.

As to whether it would have affected sales, I am certain that many 3G purchasers would have elected to go with a non-3G iPad had they been aware of the impending change. Others, who bought the iPad as an economical way to access the Internet where the was no wifi might have elected to go for traditional laptops tethered to their cell phones. While interesting as a hypothetical, the fact is that Apple advertised and promoted a feature that has value and the feature has now been taken away. They owe those of us who purchased an iPad when the promise of unlimited-when-you-want-it 3G.
 
It's actually been changed on the second page now where the description is (after the asterisk page)

http://www.apple.com/ipad/3g/

I wish someone would actually officially clarify what this means to people who bought before today.

Mandy
 
llurgy said:
It's actually been changed on the second page now where the description is (after the asterisk page)

http://www.apple.com/ipad/3g/

I wish someone would actually officially clarify what this means to people who bought before today.

Mandy
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Mandy,

I share your frustration. I received mine on June 1, the day before AT&T announced that they would discontinue the much ballyhooed unlimited plan. I really wish that they would just do the right thing and honor the terms of the advertisements that they, and Apple, put out to us early adopters. It seems like it would be far cheaper than having this turn into ugly class action lawsuits, actions by states attorneys general, etc.
 
Don't just feel frustrated... Join us and do this instead!

fmaxwell said:
Mandy,

I share your frustration. I received mine on June 1, the day before AT&T announced that they would discontinue the much ballyhooed unlimited plan. I really wish that they would just do the right thing and honor the terms of the advertisements that they, and Apple, put out to us early adopters. It seems like it would be far cheaper than having this turn into ugly class action lawsuits, actions by states attorneys general, etc.
Click to expand...

Don't just feel frustrated. Instead, join us....

The way to clarify this is to have the Better Business Bureau (BBB) and/or Federal Trade Commission (FTC) contact them on your behalf.

You can file a complaint with the BBB against AT&T/Apple online at:
http://www.bbb.org/us/

You can file file a complaint with the FTC against AT&T/Apple online at:
https://www.ftccomplaintassistant.gov/

The forms are very easy and only take a few minutes of your time.

Here's the info you need:

Apple
1 Infinite Loop
Cupertino, CA 95014
408-996-1010

AT&T
175 East Houston Street
Dallas, TX 78205-2255
210-821-4105.

I believe that the key points are:
Apple touted and advertised the $29.99 data plan as a major inducement to buy the iPad 3g.
Apple described it as a “breakthrough deal” with AT&T, leading consumers to believe that Apple had locked in the terms and price.
A key, heavily advertised, feature was the ability to jump between plans or have no 3G plan as dictated by needs and budget.
The “grandfathering” announced by AT&T forces customers to either keep an unlimited plan continuously active in order to not lose it.
The change in the plans has significant impact on the value of the device and the manner in which it can be used.
We want AT&T and Apple to honor the advertised deal, not give us money, a coupon, a refund, free service for a month, etc. (That’s what I want, anyway.)
 
tigres said:
So steve made no announcement and this is just a whatever?

Wtf is this?
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It's really annoying, that's what it is!!

For Apple to just ignore the fact that all the people that bought the 3G iPad have had their terms changed so quickly out of the gate is just plain annoying.

No explanation, nothing. Head in the sand behavior and just really insulting.
Apple were touting the deal as being the next best thing since sliced bread. The next best thing since sliced bread has been taken away and Apple doesn't even have the courtesy to acknowledge it.

I actually feel snubbed?:(
 
llurgy said:
It's really annoying, that's what it is!!

For Apple to just ignore the fact that all the people that bought the 3G iPad have had their terms changed so quickly out of the gate is just plain annoying.

No explanation, nothing. Head in the sand behavior and just really insulting.
Apple were touting the deal as being the next best thing since sliced bread. The next best thing since sliced bread has been taken away and Apple doesn't even have the courtesy to acknowledge it.

I actually feel snubbed?:(
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That is the reson that I bought the WIFI only I know ATT. you can't trust them, this way I have nothing to do with them.
you will see how the will pop up the GB on your 3G chanel,,,,,,,,,,:D
 
What do you expect Apple to do?

Apple likely knew about it in advance. It is what it is.
 
marksman said:
What do you expect Apple to do?

Apple likely knew about it in advance. It is what it is.
Click to expand...

I was totally expecting them to address this issue at the WWDC and nada!
MUTE!
It's not like there hasn't been an uproar about it.
 
marksman said:
What do you expect Apple to do?
Click to expand...

1. Acknowledge it happened.
2. Explain why
3. Offer some open letter as to reasoning behind it.
4. Show some empathy; like in the iPhone 1st gen fiasco.
5. Agree on record apple is aware of it, and are deeply sorry for the initial push for the revolutionary rate plan.
6. Man up, and treat the clients like the intelligent people that they are.
7. Restore faith to the customers that this will be indeed rectified in some way.
8. Just say OOPS, our bad/or their bad.
9. Call AT&T on their game, publicly.
10. Any one of the above should suffice.
 
I've been out of the country for the past week and have tried reading the posts... so the unlimited plan has been grandfathered by AT&T if we ordered it online before the June 7 deadline and activate that plan whenever it arrives? Has anyone actually done this yet?
 
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