Audio Decoding KILLS MacPro (2009) green factor

[nanofrog]

Abnormally high temperature differential between diode and heatsink signals a problem with thermal interface material between the IHS and heatsink.

It's not like that hasn't happened before... (so much TIM, it resembles a creme filled cookie/biscuit <for our UK members>)

In any case Apple's assertion that their hardware only supports Apple software must be ridiculous even to themselves. Any software was probably compiled with Xcode in the end...

Definitely a ludicrous statement. I wonder if they can actually say that with a straight face?

 

[smacman]

I think you may have a more dodgy system because my 2.66 has *never* (as far as I can remember) gone above 70ish Tcase (again I will confirm when im back!)

I'm glad you too are trying to push Apple on this. I wish more people would do the same.

Re your CPU temp, I think factors like speed (your 2.66 vs my 2.93), and different ambient temps could explain these kind of variances. In any case, Apple's response that temp and power are within limits is a sad joke of a response at best.

With regard to your upcoming performance tests, I am afraid you might have the same luck I had. I have been trying to quantify this performance hit for a few days, and beyond benchmarking apps, and a slight difference when pushing Handbrake very hard, I could not find anything concrete. I would not be surprised if Apple has discovered the same, and that is why they are leading you down that path now. I can just here it now, "Because Xbench, Geekbench, and Handbrake are not Apple programs, we won't take responsibility for any performance loss"..

 

[nanofrog]

Re your CPU temp, I think factors like speed (your 2.66 vs my 2.93), and different ambient temps could explain these kind of variances. In any case, Apple's response that temp and power are within limits is a sad joke of a response at best.

Yes, they can have a noticable effect. Even the same model can differ from part to part, especially if from a different lot (production batch).

But that does't explain what's going on, and as you mention, Apple's response to this is a sick joke.

With regard to your upcoming performance tests, I am afraid you might have the same luck I had. I have been trying to quantify this performance hit for a few days, and beyond benchmarking apps, and a slight difference when pushing Handbrake very hard, I could not find anything concrete. I would not be surprised if Apple has discovered the same, and that is why they are leading you down that path now. I can just here it now, "Because Xbench, Geekbench, and Handbrake are not Apple programs, we won't take responsibility for any performance loss"..

It is reproducable though, and at least one person here has proven it to the Apple personnel in the store it was done at.

My issue with the software statement, is that Apple wants to acknoledge 3rd party software products when it's in their benefit, particularly marketing. But when it shows a chink in Apple's Invincible Armor that the marketing dept. has created, they scream foul, and claim that since they didn't write it, the results are BS, and claim there's absolutely no issue at all. ... Dual standards... //GRR....

 

[eemzah]

Disappointed with my Mac Pro

I just got back my Mac Pro from AppleCare Centre in Singapore after sending it in for the third time. Same answers, everything is within specs.

The tech told me to remove iStat, SMCfancontrol and other third party app that will affect the performance of my machine. So I asked him whether I could remove iTunes instead as that app is causing serious performance hit on my machine. He didn't know what to say.

I showed him this thread and the Apple Discussion thread. I showed him the power consumption on iStat when playing audio compared to doing a lot of other CPU intensive work. He said it is within limits.

The tech confirmed with me that nothing is in the works. So if you are hoping for a fix, don't expect anything at all.

My other option is to sell this machine and go back to Windows.

 

[nanofrog]

My other option is to sell this machine and go back to Windows.

You could run Windows exclusively if desired on your machine. It's been done, and with Linux as well.

 

[eemzah]

You could run Windows exclusively if desired on your machine. It's been done, and with Linux as well.

I wanted to... but it will be the most expensive PC I ever bought in my entire life.

 

[smacman]

I wanted to... but it will be the most expensive PC I ever bought in my entire life.

These machines are not functioning properly and Apple is unable to correct the issue. You have an excellent case for a 100% refund.

 

[seisend]

I think the only thing could help best with this situation is the media, AGAIN.

 

[eemzah]

These machines are not functioning properly and Apple is unable to correct the issue. You have an excellent case for a 100% refund.

Sadly smacman my man, we don't have the luxury of consumer rights here in Singapore. Once you sign the invoice and receipt, you are out of luck.

Actually there's more to the conversation I had with the tech guy.

I am convinced all tech support around the globe will answer you this way:

Q. Playing audio causes a lot of heat on my machine.
A. Don't listen to music when doing work.

Q. I am into video/sound editing.
A. The software you are using is not optimised for Snow Leopard. Not within Apple's ground to create a fix. Contact the software manufacturer.

Q. But the same problem occurs in iTunes.
A. It is within limits.

Q. So when I use iTunes, Aperture, iMovie and Safari together, my machine generates a lot of heat. At times causing a kernel panic.
A. See first answer.

No refunds. No fix. I paid SGD$4K for a machine that sucks a lot of power, generates a lot of heat and kernel panics along the way. Thank you Apple.

 

[seisend]

Sadly smacman my man, we don't have the luxury of consumer rights here in Singapore. Once you sign the invoice and receipt, you are out of luck.

Actually there's more to the conversation I had with the tech guy.

I am convinced all tech support around the globe will answer you this way:

Q. Playing audio causes a lot of heat on my machine.
A. Don't listen to music when doing work.

Q. I am into video/sound editing.
A. The software you are using is not optimised for Snow Leopard. Not within Apple's ground to create a fix. Contact the software manufacturer.

Q. But the same problem occurs in iTunes.
A. It is within limits.

Q. So when I use iTunes, Aperture, iMovie and Safari together, my machine generates a lot of heat. At times causing a kernel panic.
A. See first answer.

No refunds. No fix. I paid SGD$4K for a machine that sucks a lot of power, generates a lot of heat and kernel panics along the way. Thank you Apple.

LOL : Don't listen to music when doing work . Actually, this makes me cry, but there is no icon for that. Macrumors forum has to provide such a smile in the future, too. :'-(

 

[Max(IT)]

Tcore up to 100ºC is fine! Who started this panic?

I' m saying that for a while ....
There is people worried about the cpu's health with a Tcore of 60-70 °C ....

What I' m saying is: ok, there is an issue, but don't exaggerate it
BTW I' ve sent an email to our Apple Representative (we're a government facility ..) to highlight the issue. I'm waiting for an answer.

@smacman... +1... Well said. I would advocate cutting newbies some slack... but there's no excuse for not reading the thread before taking a stubborn position on this. I was in denial at first myself, but saw the light.

At any rate, sorry to hear this feedback. I think for those who's work is impacted by this, we can only hope that the 2010 Gulftown rigs don't suffer the same problem. Then if that's the case, sell the 09 and buy a new one.

hey dude, stop judging people with the "join date", ok ?
I've a degree in IT, I'm not a newbie in this field ....
And I read ALL the thread before posting.

 

[DoFoT9]

I've a degree in IT, I'm not a newbie in this field ....
And I red ALL the thread before posting.

not trying to be rude, but its clear that you have a degree in IT jst lyke meh!

 

[smacman]

I've a degree in IT, I'm not a newbie in this field ....
And I red ALL the thread before posting.

If you are going to get hostile, and brag about your degree, then at least spell check your post before you hit enter...

 

[Transporteur]

I' m saying that for a while ....
There is people worried about the cpu's health with a Tcore of 60-70 °C ....

100°C Tcore is fine?
Sorry, but where do you get that information?

According to the XEON 5500 datasheet (click, pages 89 following), the maximum Tcase temperature is about 80°C! You can add about 5° to get the Tcore temp.
Everything above that 'may only be used for short term excursions to higher ambient temperatures, not to exceed 360 hours per year'.

 

[Max(IT)]

If you are going to get hostile, and brag about your degree, then at least spell check your post before you hit enter...

I'm doing my best to write in english, maybe would you like to try your italian ?

 

[Max(IT)]

100°C Tcore is fine?
Sorry, but where do you get that information?

According to the XEON 5500 datasheet (click, pages 89 following), the maximum Tcase temperature is about 80°C! You can add about 5° to get the Tcore temp.
Everything above that 'may only be used for short term excursions to higher ambient temperatures, not to exceed 360 hours per year'.

Difference between Tcase and Tcore can be as high as 10°C, maybe more.
There is a snapshot in the previous page (I think from smacman's MP) showing a Tcase of 83°C and a Tcore5 of 94°C.

BTW you're absolutely correct: that kind of temperatures are "fine" just for a limited period of time, but all this flame started when I pointed out that a Tcase temperature of about 45° C (see post # 463 ) is not something to be worried about, for the cpu's health I mean.
BTW in the same post and in the following smacman insisted on iStat Pro measuring temperature only in the heatsink, that IT'S NOT true (you have Heatsink and Tcase from cpu's diode).

I'm not here to say that there isn't a problem: I have reported the issue to Apple.
I'm just saying that in many MPs (including the one in my office) the problem is not related to the cpu's health, but only with performance.
Don't you agree ?

 

[smacman]

I'm doing my best to write in english, maybe would you like to try your italian ?

I think you would win there..

 

[lbodnar]

100°C Tcore is fine?
Sorry, but where do you get that information?

According to the XEON 5500 datasheet (click, pages 89 following), the maximum Tcase temperature is about 80°C! You can add about 5° to get the Tcore temp.
Everything above that 'may only be used for short term excursions to higher ambient temperatures, not to exceed 360 hours per year'.

Because you have energy flux of up to 130W flowing from the cores and it will easily cause 30ºC differential over a few material junctions. All it needs is 0.2-0.3K/W thermal resistance between the core and IHS which is very typical figure for semiconductors. It is very much like electric current: TemperatureDrop=Power * ThermalResistance. You won't see big temperature drop unless you have high emitted power (thermal resistance is fixed.)

If you want concrete figures, look up datasheets for Intel mobile processors. Due to the problems in CPU top case measurements Intel specifies core temperatures instead. 100-110ºC is normal operation. 125ºC is a critical danger zone where CPU is supposed to take preventive measures itself.

 

[Max(IT)]

I think you would win there..

I wouldn't bet on it

 

[Inconsequential]

I'm glad you too are trying to push Apple on this. I wish more people would do the same.

Re your CPU temp, I think factors like speed (your 2.66 vs my 2.93), and different ambient temps could explain these kind of variances. In any case, Apple's response that temp and power are within limits is a sad joke of a response at best.

With regard to your upcoming performance tests, I am afraid you might have the same luck I had. I have been trying to quantify this performance hit for a few days, and beyond benchmarking apps, and a slight difference when pushing Handbrake very hard, I could not find anything concrete. I would not be surprised if Apple has discovered the same, and that is why they are leading you down that path now. I can just here it now, "Because Xbench, Geekbench, and Handbrake are not Apple programs, we won't take responsibility for any performance loss"..

Well then I just say well sorry but then thats not what I use the machine for and want a refund.

Not to mention Photoshop is actually run ON their machines!

Slightly worrying that you can't quantify this performance loss outside of benchmarks.

But again I will see

 

[smacman]

Well then I just say well sorry but then thats not what I use the machine for and want a refund.

Not to mention Photoshop is actually run ON their machines!

Slightly worrying that you can't quantify this performance loss outside of benchmarks.

But again I will see

Whatever is happening seems to affect the CPU from the top down.. Meaning that unless you can stress the cores adequately, the loss won't be evident. It's like buying a 200mph sports car that for whatever reason is only capable of doing 160mph. Unless you can find a driver with enough skill to push the car beyond 160mph, you would never know there is a problem...

 

[Inconsequential]

Whatever is happening seems to affect the CPU from the top down.. Meaning that unless you can stress the cores adequately, the loss won't be evident. It's like buying a 200mph sports car that for whatever reason is only capable of doing 160mph. Unless you can find a driver with enough skill to push the car beyond 160mph, you would never know there is a problem...

I think I know it does effect VMWare, in CAD programs it started to make the mouse jump about in W7...

*Ponders*

Anyway, I get the machine back off my parents on Saturday so should have a full workup then!

 

[smacman]

I think I know it does effect VMWare, in CAD programs it started to make the mouse jump about in W7...

*Ponders*

Anyway, I get the machine back off my parents on Saturday so should have a full workup then!

Interesting.. I look forward to your results.

I still have a gut feeling that the one issue Apple won't so easily deflect, is the power consumption of these machines while playing audio / using FW. I have spun my wheels with the temperature symptom, and wasted plenty of time trying to measure the actual performance penalty, but in the end, the easiest thing to quantify is the power consumption. As others have smartly pointed out, we are talking about a company that supposedly prides itself on environmentally friendly efficient products, and a system that claims to meet Energy Star 5.0 standards.

The more I think about this, the more I think we can prevail. If we pool our collective heads together (as you have pointed out), we should be able to put enough pressure on Apple to make them want to fix this..

 

[Inconsequential]

Interesting.. I look forward to your results.

I still have a gut feeling that the one issue Apple won't so easily deflect, is the power consumption of these machines while playing audio / using FW. I have spun my wheels with the temperature symptom, and wasted plenty of time trying to measure the actual performance penalty, but in the end, the easiest thing to quantify is the power consumption. As others have smartly pointed out, we are talking about a company that supposedly prides itself on environmentally friendly efficient products, and a system that claims to meet Energy Star 5.0 standards.

The more I think about this, the more I think we can prevail. If we pool our collective heads together (as you have pointed out), we should be able to put enough pressure on Apple to make them want to fix this..

Well again I think the point of it doesn't happen in windows and a iPhone/iPod does not need 50W more to decode audio it is NOT within specs for the type of operation it is doing.

Again, we need clear concise arguement to them. Saying audio decoding does X,Y,Z without saying that X,Y,Z does NOT happen on any other Apple Computer, or indeed windows.

Its a cascade effect, once one of us wins over Apple then the rest should start falling (if it IS a hardware issue)

 

[nanofrog]

I am convinced all tech support around the globe will answer you this way:

Q. Playing audio causes a lot of heat on my machine.
A. Don't listen to music when doing work.

Q. I am into video/sound editing.
A. The software you are using is not optimised for Snow Leopard. Not within Apple's ground to create a fix. Contact the software manufacturer.

Q. But the same problem occurs in iTunes.
A. It is within limits.

Q. So when I use iTunes, Aperture, iMovie and Safari together, my machine generates a lot of heat. At times causing a kernel panic.
A. See first answer.

No refunds. No fix. I paid SGD$4K for a machine that sucks a lot of power, generates a lot of heat and kernel panics along the way. Thank you Apple.

Nice. Thanks for the laugh.

Difference between Tcase and Tcore can be as high as 10°C, maybe more.
There is a snapshot in the previous page (I think from smacman's MP) showing a Tcase of 83°C and a Tcore5 of 94°C.

It's above Intel's Thermal Profile for Tcase, even in the short term profile. Not horribly so, but its not inconcievable that a few systems have gone higher than this, and are subsequently out of spec.

I do think the power draw and performance loss are equally as important, and the more likely direction to get a positive response from Apple.