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Great informative discussion here. I am convinced that properly engineered standard CD audio won't be improved upon with higher bit depth and sample rate when played in a well designed listening environment.

However I would still want to buy and have access to HD audio.

Standard CDs will not be properly engineered to the standards for a critical listener, they will be engineered to the standards for a typical listener. HD audio is targeted to critical listeners and will be engineered to that market. It is a product differentiator and label of quality even if not strictly necessary.

Some people may want to do additional processing before listening to perhaps compensate for subpar listening and speaker/headphones. Maybe because they want a different sound. Having 24 bits and higher sample rates give all the advantages that the recording engineers have to process the signal with less degradation. They may want a different high quality sound than the sound engineer wants to present to them in a finished standard CD.
 
Here's my take on this aspect of the industry

First off, there are so many albums that have been produced that are sellable in a large enough quantity in a higher resolution. SACD and DVD-A have already proven that higher res audio is a niche market. They used SACD originally for archival purposes and then later became a way to market and sell higher quality recordings for the "audiophile" crowd that spends infinitely more money on content and audio equipment, but it's a niche market.

How do they get high resolution audio to be mainstream?

Sony is releasing DSD files and equipment, but that's more for the home audio rather than portable media players because it boils down to this. First off, you need a high end playback system in a quiet environment to truly appreciate high resolution recordings and it costs a fair amount of money for equipment and then more money to acquire the content. For mobile devices, you have other elements that prevent one from enjoying high resolution files since you have ambient noise that covers up the sound quality of the recording. Even in automobiles with high end audio systems, you have road noise and a car simply has bad "room" acoustics.

What people are finding out is that due to this ambient noise, it's better to have audio compression on the recordings because it make the recording "louder" so that you can hear everything. If you have a recording without audio compression, the softer passages are hard to hear if you have too much ambient room noise, but in a home with good room acoustics and decent noise isolation (soundproofing), it's easier to hear those softer passages and people will find they don't want audio compression, especially those that listen to acoustic music like classical and jazz recordings as an example. Having that wide dynamic range improves the emotional aspects of the performance..

But the issue is that the majority of the music buying population are kids or young adults that are listening to more "Pop" music that utilizes more electronic music, distorted guitars, signal processing, etc. and they aren't as concerned about a wide dynamic range or concerned as much with sonic accuracy of the instrument and vocals as they just want to either listen to their favorite dance song or something they can sign along to. So, getting the masses into high resolution recordings with a wide dynamic range is a tough sell. Especially when you have to pay more money for the same piece of music and you generally have to spend even more on good audio equipment.

The average person doesn't spend $1000+ on a custom molded ear buds or high end headphones. The average person doesn't spend thousands of dollars on stereo equipment (DAC, amp, speakers, cables) to enjoy high resolution audio.

Is there a market for high res audio? Yes, but it's only a niche.

The other flip side is how much content is really available? Right now, only about 1,000 albums and a lot of them are classical and jazz recordings and these aren't big selling albums in comparison to something like a Rollling Stones or Beatles album, or Michael Jackson, or Beyonce, etc. etc.

They are getting more bigger selling pop albums in high res, but it's still a VERY small number of titles being released.

What percentage of the total number of albums are they even going to bother offering in high resolution? 5%, 10%, 15%? i do not see much more than maybe 15% of the total number of EXISTING albums being re-released in high resolution for the mere fact that they have to spend money in producing a high res version and they have to sell enough copies to recoup the mastering, marketing and the various costs to release the title, so they have to figure out how many they will ultimately sell. Moving forward, how many kids want the next big pop album in high res vs MP3? Is there even going to be enough people wanting a new title in high res and are they willing to pay almost 2x for the same title? A 24 Bit album can cost between $17 and $25, whereas a MP3 costs between $10 and $13. Is there really going to be a big enough demand?

If the record labels could magically change all titles to high res overnight and they charged the same price, then they could get high res to be the new accepted standard, but they can't do that. I think getting a big enough portion of the market to go for high res audio is going to take decades.

Just look at movies and how long it took just to migrate from VHS to DVD and then to BluRay. It takes 10+ years or more for the next generation format to overtake the previous format and that's because there are less movie titles to migrate and people seem to like viewing and listening to these better formats, but it's still a tough sell. But for new movies, they are all basically produced for this higher quality format. Look at how fast it's going to take to move to 4K, it's going to take at least 20 years for 4K to overtake 1080p because it's more expensive for the equipment and people simply are hitting that ceiling and it's reaching the limitations of what people (the masses) are willing to spend to get small incremental improvements.
 
Its business as usual, Apple hardware is always a generation or two behind. How do you think they make so much money, they skimp on hardware because they can afford to hold back features for 1-2 years, due to the blind loyalty of the fan base and the marketing.
 
That's not what Shannon's theorem says. It doesn't state that sampling at twice the frequency is enough to be able to reproduce a perfect signal. What it states is that if you sample under twice the frequency, there is no way you will be able to reproduce a signal at that frequency... It's a minimum, not a maximum.

You don't even know what Nyquist-Shannon says at all. Here's a quote relevant to what you're talking about that 100% contradicts you.

"The Shannon sampling theory for non-uniform sampling states that a band-limited signal can be perfectly reconstructed from its samples if the average sampling rate satisfies the Nyquist condition. Therefore, although uniformly spaced samples may result in easier reconstruction algorithms, it is not a necessary condition for perfect reconstruction." --Nonuniform Sampling, Theory and Practice (ed. F. Marvasti), Kluwer Academic/Plenum Publishers, New York, 2000

In other words, it is a MAXIMUM requirement as well as a MINIMUM one. All frequencies can be PERFECTLY reconstructed if the sampling rate is twice the recorded frequency in a bandwidth-limited signal. In other words, what you said is 100% incorrect.

96kHz is pointless in terms of reproducing audio that a HUMAN BEING can hear and that is a scientific FACT, not an opinion! The filtering issues are easily overcome in the present day, BTW. All this "HD Audio" is pure nonsense on that front.

However, recording audio at higher rates (bit-rates at least) does have real benefits in terms of head-room (i.e. avoiding clipping with unpredictable live sources). But this can easily be reduced to a lower number on the playback side with ZERO ill effect. It's as simple as using a normalizing filter to set the absolute levels and then dithering down to a lower bit-rate. You can even use noise-shaping and get near 18-bit audio out of a 16-bit CD if it really worries you.

Thus 16-bit audio may be a bit low in absolute terms for the best recordings out there. 18-bit would have been a better choice, but there's zero reason to EVER have >20-bit audio on the playback side, atl east that is meant to be heard by humans. You can only hear 120dB MAXIMUM dynamic range and 120dB is very VERY bad for your hearing (as in instant damage). Just because you CAN hear it, doesn't mean you SHOULD. Thus, in reality, almost no recordings have a usable realistic amount of dynamic range that would matter much over 16-bit and virtually NONE over 18-bit on the playback end.

For instance, a young person will hear a signal at 20kHz. To capture that signal, you need to sample at at least 40kHz. Then, that young person will be able to hear something, but you will have lost a lot of characteristics of the signal - for instance, you will not be able to know if the original signal was a sawtooth, a square or a sinusoid. So, significant information will have been lost.

WRONG WRONG WRONG. Go read about digital audio before you spread any more falsehoods. I get so SICK of reading this false information on the Internet. Go read some articles on digital audio. Try looking under OVERSAMPLING an FILTERING to start. What you are saying only holds true if you don't use a reconstruction filter (and there are some DACS out there now that do that since some crazy people actually think it sounds better to take perfect sine waves and turn them into crap, apparently). Playing back digital audio without a reconstruction filter (or not using something like oversampling on the recording side) is a bit like buying a car without a muffler or exhaust and then complaining that it's NOISY. Well DUH! :rolleyes:

If you oversample when you record then filter the frequencies above 20kHz and use dithering (white noise), you will eliminate aliasing errors and all problems near the noise floor. If you then use a proper reconstruction filter on the playback side (often filtered in reverse at oversampling rates internally first or using other standards like Sony's 1-bit filters), you remove all the problems on the playback end as well. You can easily get a near perfect sine wave at 20kHz off a CD using this method. It's not difficult.

That's why CD recordings sounded metallic at first. The solution, which is

It never sounded metallic except on bad recordings or perhaps the very first CD players that used brick filtering and no oversampling. Anything else is a MASTERING problem. And there were and are today still a TON of mastering issues ranging from early on using LP masters that were optimized for a medium that couldn't handle stereo bass and could burn out cutting heads with too much treble to modern day "loudness wars" that assume "louder = better" when in reality, it just creates so much distortion (see the Red Hot Chili Peppers Californication album as a good example of bad mastering to the point of CLIPPING all over the place). Why is it harsh sounding? It has almost zero dynamic range and is clipping square waves all over the place! Is that digital's fault? No, it's the mastering engineer's fault and possibly the band's fault as well (the pre-final master I have here is still pretty darn hot, but at least it's not clipping left and right).

applied on all CDs, was to cut the frequency around 16kHz to avoid the destruction of the characteristics of the signal around Shannon frequencies.

Where do you get this false information? LP masters are bandwidth limited purposely to avoid burning out the cutting heads. That is the only reason (other than crazy audiophile labels that believe this crap) it would be bandwidth limited. I've got news for you, though. There's hardly any usable (or audible) frequencies above 16kHz regardless. Your average adult over 30 years old isn't likely to hear even a loud sine wave above 16kHz. I don't think they notice with music.

That's why 96kHz is interesting, because it keeps quality in the upper part of the spectrum.

Quality? For noise? MOST of the information above 20kHz is NOISE. It takes a lot more storage space to represent that inaudible (to humans) NOISE. How is that interesting?

Moreover, 24-96 is not only about 96kHz, it's also 24 bit. And there, you gain a lot. The problem with CD and digital capture in general is that the scale is linear while most of our senses use a logarithmic scale.

In case you don't understand physics (and I'm pretty certain you do not or you wouldn't keep making such statements), a SCALE is a measuring device used by humans. I can switch between linear and logarithmic scales on my scope. Switching mathematical measurement scales does not affect CONTENT ONE IOTA. In other words, digital audio reproduces bandwidth. That bandwidth can be measured in linear or logarithmic scales. There is no difference. The music content is the SAME. The fact you don't know this and think digital is somehow different than analog shows me you're spouting crap you don't understand in the slightest.

The result is that when you go at the bottom of your intensity, you have a very very low resolution in your sample, while the human ear (or eye) still have a good resolution. This is especially visible in photography: if you brighten the shadows, you will see a lot of banding, because the sample resolution is very low in the shadows. It's the same problem with audio: CD killed the dynamic range (hence the loudness war), because it's not that good when you have a lot of dynamic during the low volume ports.

Please don't compare video with audio. The so-called loudness wars are a mastering and recording issue. They have literally nothing to do with any limitation in the CD digital format, real or imaginary. "CD" did not "kill" anything. People killed dynamic range in the mastering booth, usually on hard drives these days. CDs are created later. Using 24/96kHz with such a mastered album would only get you a disc that contains more stored bits, but sounds every bit as bad. In fact, such an album could probably be accurately reproduced by a 6-bit 44kHz format because I doubt most of those albums contain even that much dynamic range.
 
Its business as usual, Apple hardware is always a generation or two behind. How do you think they make so much money, they skimp on hardware because they can afford to hold back features for 1-2 years, due to the blind loyalty of the fan base and the marketing.

It is stated in the article that already the previous iPhone hardware was capable of 96/24 audio. It's just that they don't support it in the OS. And as far as I know, the situation is the same on Android too.

And please don't get confused here with HD Voice calls, as it's completely different topic.

My opinion is that the current 44.1/16 is already HD audio, and it's not comparative to increasing video resolution. There is point in using 96/24 by musicians and in the studio however, when recording sounds for post-processing.
 
It is stated in the article that already the previous iPhone hardware was capable of 96/24 audio. It's just that they don't support it in the OS. And as far as I know, the situation is the same on Android too.

And please don't get confused here with HD Voice calls, as it's completely different topic.

My opinion is that the current 44.1/16 is already HD audio, and it's not comparative to increasing video resolution. There is point in using 96/24 by musicians and in the studio however, when recording sounds for post-processing.

Thanks for the clarification, I appreciate it ! For the record I think iPhones have very good audio and playback quality so I hope it doesn't go down this time.
 
My opinion is that the current 44.1/16 is already HD audio, and it's not comparative to increasing video resolution. There is point in using 96/24 by musicians and in the studio however, when recording sounds for post-processing.

44.1/16 is CD quality and 96(or higher)/24 is HD. All music is done 24bit these days so downsampling is not 2014.
 
Come on, Apple just bought Beats, why should they suddenly care about high quality audio!
 
The USB-out has been able to playback 24-bit audio since at least the iPhone 4S.

People that actually care about 24-bit audio (like me) already know this.

Stupid article.
 
What if you just happen to sample the points where the wave crosses zero?

The only time that would happen is when a frequency is exactly half the frequency. And in the real world you need to low pass filter so you wouldn't ever be trying to sample that frequency in the first place.

Even if that's not true, you cannot tell the amplitude of the true signal. You actually need 3x the signal frequency.

Nope, for frequencies below half the sample rate, you get the frequency and the amplitude. That's exactly what nyquist says, it's hard for people to believe you don't need a much higher sample rate but that's how it is.

That's just a failing of whoever designed present audio formats. Maybe if Apple end up releasing their own high quality audio format, it will feature an exponential amplitude multiplier.

It isn't a failing, he just doesn't understand how binary numbers correspond to audio signal. There are digital audio apps that use floating point for calculations but that's only for the sake of math, it's not like it's inherently an improvement in quality or something.

Jordan only scored 15 points last night.

Jordan's best games were over 60 points in a game. If you're going to use that as a comparison to apple, that means you're saying Apple's best iPhone release sold four times as many as the 6 release. Is that the case? Has any iPhone release been bigger than the 6 at all? Or any release of any phone?

Like I said, moving the goalposts. If someone is going to call the biggest phone release of all time a flop, you can just as well call any achievement a flop.

Thursday night I did a mobile session where I got to record a 9'2" Fazioli F278 with two rented Neumann TLM49's in a big recital room enclosed within a building. I went straight into an Apogee Duet @ 24/88.2 and into Logic X on a Mini i7 with SSDs. -I'm editing in Pro Tools 9. The combination of the performer, the piano, and the microphones was amazing.

So you had great piano, great room, great mics...and you really think the reason it sounded so good was the 88.2? Maybe I missed something but I didn't see any mention of your post where you even compared the 88.2 with 44.1.

Nobody questions that a higher depth/sampling-rate is necessary for recording: the point is that after post-production it's not necessary to go above 16/44 in the final master meant for reproduction.

Nobody questions that higher bit depth is necessary for recording. But there's a lot of debate about whether higher sample rate offers any real benefits even for recording.
 
Unfortunately for you, Milo, Liktor has more up votes than you.

Fixed that for you.

I'm not sure what part specifically you think he was right. You really are get in that tiny lifeboat all alone with him and dispute that 16 bit audio has 96dB dynamic range, after insisting "read up on it!"?

you definitely have a higher dynamic range with 24/96 or 24/192 than 16/44.1.

Whoa there, don't lump the sample rate and bit rate together. You have a higher dynamic range with 24 bit than 16 bit. Sample rate has nothing to do with dynamic range, instead it determines the highest frequency that can be recorded. And while 24 bit should always be used for recording, the question is whether using it as a release format it is overkill for the vast majority of people listening. It's not just a question of good ears and good equipment, but also having an incredibly quiet listening environment.

Isn't your dynamic ranges of 96dB and 144dB THEORETICAL and NOT REALITY? The dynamic range depends on equipment. The most I've ever seen any AD or DAC is about 120dB or so with regards to dynamic range.

True in the case of 24 bit, I still keep hearing that most converters are something like 21 or 22 bit and the last couple bits are just noise. But actual 96dB dynamic range is doable. If 24 bit in actual usage maxes out at 120dB, that's still more than enough. Don't forget that microphones, speakers, recording halls, and even the instruments themselves don't have a 144dB dynamic range.

Don't get caught up with theories as they are simply that.

The theory is just the scientific basis of real world use. Real world testing shows that digital recording does have such a wide dynamic range.

Either way, when I listen to music, it peaks around 96dB from my listening position, and it's averaging around 85dB, so I would rather have dynamic range above 96dB if you don't mind.

I assume you mean your top volume is around 96dB SPL? If that's the case then the quietest parts of the CD would be at 0dB SPL. Which is pretty much the threshold of human hearing, and much quieter than pretty much any listening environment (especially typical consumer environments as opposed to recording studios and anechoic chambers). Even cranking up to 96dB SPL the quietest parts of the recording are probably going to be quieter than you can hear and drowned out by the room itself.

And for reference, 100dB is the volume of a jackhammer three feet away. That's listening to music very loud, above the level that will cause permanent hearing damage with enough exposure. At a more comfortable level, the quieter parts of the recording are down even further into the inaudible range.

So nobody minds if you ask for more dynamic range. You're just not going to be able to hear it.

I also listen to a LOT of content with acoustic instruments and I prefer as natural of a sound quality as possible. I also am very sensitive to any form of distortion, so it's critical that I get as good of sound as possible with what I listen to.

That's all good and well. But that doesn't mean you would be able to hear the difference between 16/44.1 and higher resolution formats. As others have pointed out earlier, in the case of higher sample rates it would be like complaining that your TV doesn't show infrared or ultra violet.

16 Bit is still by far, the most common in terms of how it was originally recorded when it comes to digital

Based on what, your wild guess? I don't know if that information is even available but I'd be shocked if most commercial recordings these days aren't tracked at 24 bit. Probably been that way for years.

Just look at movies and how long it took just to migrate from VHS to DVD and then to BluRay.

But tons of people can easily see the difference between DVD and BluRay. Worst case, you can put your face right up to the screen if necessary. If people can't hear a difference they're not going to bother with higher resolutions for audio files.
 
Jordan's best games were over 60 points in a game. If you're going to use that as a comparison to apple, that means you're saying Apple's best iPhone release sold four times as many as the 6 release. Is that the case? Has any iPhone release been bigger than the 6 at all? Or any release of any phone?

Like I said, moving the goalposts. If someone is going to call the biggest phone release of all time a flop, you can just as well call any achievement a flop.

Oh, I thought you meant that Jordan's points were analogous to Apple's stocks, not sales, since that's what we were discussing. Doesn't that mean you were moving the goal posts?

iPhone 6 is the biggest release in terms of sales. I believe iPhone 6 has topped all other releases by a million (so far). No one's arguing that.

My argument is that iPhone 6 can be called a relative flop in terms of exceptionally bad publicity which led to a pretty remarkable stock drop--which negatively effected the whole market, by the way. I can't think of another release that caused its shares to drop that far besides the 5S (another relative flop). You think this drop is negated by the fact that Apple bounced back and that it is still touting the highest selling phone. That's what you think. It's not true though. It still counts. How could it not?

Maybe I'll just say "relatively less successful stock-wise" instead of "relative flop." The discussion began when someone called iPhone 6 a "flop" and I corrected them by saying it is a "relative flop" at its least best. Debates ensued. The word "flop" was contested. I thought, "sure why not. I can use the practice." Now here we are, in a clash of wits.
 
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Oh, I thought you meant that Jordan's points were analogous to Apple's stocks, not sales, since that's what we were discussing.

Nobody judges whether a product is a flop based on stock price. Particularly by cherry picking how the stock did on one day, not even the day of release. And a three percent stock drop isn't especially remarkable, especially when it makes almost all of that back the next day.

exceptionally bad publicity

People don't judge "flop" based on that either. It's all about sales.

It still counts.

Counts for what? Apple releases a product. Either people buy it or they don't. The stock will go up or go down based on whether it sells well or not, and we'll see that over the long term. For any company a one day stock movement is just a blip, especially something as small as three percent which happens all the time.
 
Nobody judges whether a product is a flop based on stock price. Particularly by cherry picking how the stock did on one day, not even the day of release. And a three percent stock drop isn't especially remarkable, especially when it makes almost all of that back the next day.



People don't judge "flop" based on that either. It's all about sales.



Counts for what? Apple releases a product. Either people buy it or they don't. The stock will go up or go down based on whether it sells well or not, and we'll see that over the long term. For any company a one day stock movement is just a blip, especially something as small as three percent which happens all the time.

Nobody? That's a pretty big universal quantifier. I wouldn't be part of this total consensus even it did actually exist.

And cherry picking? Please. You're not just insulting my intelligence there, you're insulting yours. This is not an everyday occurrence we're talking about. It is rare for Apple to slip.

Who are these "people" who don't take the stock market, just sales, into consideration when making an overall judgement about the success of a product release? Apple sales people? Or just people who don't own Apple stocks?

The fluctuation of stocks, by the way, is not dependent on how well a product sells, necessarily. In this case they dropped because stock owners thought the product was not going to sell as well in the future. Why? Because, and you know this in your heart of hearts, iPhone 6 sucks compared to other iPhones. It bent in 9 people's front pockets (not something you see everyday), and it came bundled with a faulty OS. It's a great product otherwise. But that part about it sucks. I'm not alone in thinking this, as the stock market showed last week.

Calling Apple's stock, which is big enough to cause tremors throughout the market, a blip is putting it a bit lightly.

If you want to believe iPhone 6's release has been just as smooth as others, by all means, wave that Apple-branded flag. I won't be joining the parade.
 
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Fluctuations happen all the time. Huge stock drops don't.

Is this the huge drop you're talking about?

vqVBv2c.png
 
For the bit depth / dynamic range discussion, here is a reference for a range of sound intensities: http://www.decibelcar.com/menugeneric/87.html (lots of fun facts included)

10dB Absolute silence
13dB Incandescent light bulb hum
...
60dB Normal conversation
85dB Beginning of hearing damage range, earplugs should be worn
100dB Normal average car or house stereo at maximum volume
...
144dB Nose itches due to hair vibrations
145dB Vision blurs due to eyeball vibration
147dB Formula 1 race car full throttle drive by
152dB Vibration is painful and felt in joints

16 bit recordings offer dynamic range of 96 dB, that means for example a range of 10 db to 106 dB. But even that base level of 10 dB is far-fetched for most listening rooms because they usually have some kind of equipment like lighting, air ducts or amplifiers that produce hum of up to 20 dB.

For a consumer to take advantage of 24 bit recordings, they either would have to have stadium concert level speakers at home and eventually harm the health of themselves, or alternatively need to crank up the volume by 50dB in the most quiet passages to hear something. If that happens there is something wrong in the recording or mastering process.

For studio work 24 bit is totally justified as sometimes the level really needs to be cranked that high but this thread is about iPhone not studio level equipment. And actually even the iPhone hardware IS (in theory) capable of this dynamic range, there just isn't any use for it. The headphone amp generates enough noise to drown the dynamics below -110 dB. Even then the dac + headphone amp (of the iPhone 5) seems to be of better quality than most external DAC + amp combos. Some people swear by Wolfson brand DAC's and may claim the audio quality has declined after Apple switched from Wolfson to Cirrus Logic in the iPhone 5. But the measurements are still showing great results especially considering it's a damn phone!
 
Is this the huge drop you're talking about?

Image

Yes. Your graph shows Apple's growth over the course of a few years. Of course it looks small in relation. In the context of Apple's stocks as they stand in 2014, however, a sudden drop that big, caused by issues with a single product, can be called "huge." I could have said "relatively significant," but I chose "huge." Thanks for the visual though, and the lesson in semantics.

iPhone 6 is--I can't believe I have to explain this--the topic at hand, anyway. Not Apple's overall stock history.

Neither you nor Milo (for whom I've noticed you eagerly part sword from scabbard in other debates) seems to grasp the word "relative" when you need it most.

Now I've been contributing well-thought out points. Why your cheap visual gets a one-up and I don't I can only chalk up to blind partiality between forum friends.
 
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For the bit depth / dynamic range discussion, here is a reference for a range of sound intensities: http://www.decibelcar.com/menugeneric/87.html (lots of fun facts included)

10dB Absolute silence
13dB Incandescent light bulb hum
...
60dB Normal conversation
85dB Beginning of hearing damage range, earplugs should be worn
100dB Normal average car or house stereo at maximum volume
...
144dB Nose itches due to hair vibrations
145dB Vision blurs due to eyeball vibration
147dB Formula 1 race car full throttle drive by
152dB Vibration is painful and felt in joints

16 bit recordings offer dynamic range of 96 dB, that means for example a range of 10 db to 106 dB. But even that base level of 10 dB is far-fetched for most listening rooms because they usually have some kind of equipment like lighting, air ducts or amplifiers that produce hum of up to 20 dB.

For a consumer to take advantage of 24 bit recordings, they either would have to have stadium concert level speakers at home and eventually harm the health of themselves, or alternatively need to crank up the volume by 50dB in the most quiet passages to hear something. If that happens there is something wrong in the recording or mastering process.

For studio work 24 bit is totally justified as sometimes the level really needs to be cranked that high but this thread is about iPhone not studio level equipment. And actually even the iPhone hardware IS (in theory) capable of this dynamic range, there just isn't any use for it. The headphone amp generates enough noise to drown the dynamics below -110 dB. Even then the dac + headphone amp (of the iPhone 5) seems to be of better quality than most external DAC + amp combos. Some people swear by Wolfson brand DAC's and may claim the audio quality has declined after Apple switched from Wolfson to Cirrus Logic in the iPhone 5. But the measurements are still showing great results especially considering it's a damn phone!

Listening to sound above 95dB for more than 15 minutes causes short term hearing damage. Longer periods at higher volume levels can cause more damage and people lose part of their hearing at younger ages. That's why those that play in loud bands or frequently are around construction equipment, guns (without good ear protection) and other environments can easily have hearing loss a lot more prematurely or develop a painful problem called Tinnitus.

It's always best to look at the volume levels you listen to music at and keep it at an average volume level of 85dB or lower and the peaks will hit around 95dB for short durations and then you'll be able to enjoy listening to music for long periods of time without ear fatigue.

What's also a cause of ear fatigue is high frequency distortion, this is what happens at certain concerts or with poor quality stereo systems. Ever leave a concert or nightclub with your ears ringing? That's usually caused by high frequency distortion, some PA systems don't have this, most do. Most people aren't even aware when they are experiencing ear fatigue, especially if your high on drugs/alcohol. That's why they have to crank up the music at concerts and nightclubs since most of the audience is high as a kite and their hearing is dulled by their consumables.
 
Your graph shows Apple's growth over the course of a few years.

The graph spans one year... but maybe that's just semantics.

Neither you nor Milo (for whom I've noticed you eagerly part sword from scabbard in other debates)

That's what she said?

seems to grasp the word "relative" when you need it most

I was just trying to make sure that's exactly the drop you're referring to. I haven't even shared my opinion so I'm not sure what you're getting at.

I'm not very interested in debating the exact cause of the drop or whether it's meaningful, because (1) for something so complicated, I don't know if it's even possible to know the exact cause and (2) I don't know much about analyzing stock prices anyway. You think the drop was directly caused by the latest product release and that it's a pretty big deal, and that's fine. I just wanted to make sure I had the right context for trying to understand everyone's viewpoint here.

Carry on.
 
The graph spans one year... but maybe that's just semantics.



That's what she said?



I was just trying to make sure that's exactly the drop you're referring to. I haven't even shared my opinion so I'm not sure what you're getting at.

I'm not very interested in debating the exact cause of the drop or whether it's meaningful, because (1) for something so complicated, I don't know if it's even possible to know the exact cause and (2) I don't know much about analyzing stock prices anyway. You think the drop was directly caused by the latest product release and that it's a pretty big deal, and that's fine. I just wanted to make sure I had the right context for trying to understand everyone's viewpoint here.

Carry on.

I thought you were trying to make a rhetorical point by asking a question that answers itself.

Thanks for clarifying about the graph. My mistake. But it's irrelevant to my point. I stand by my claim that last week's stock drop was relatively big as far as Apple stock fluctuations during product releases go.

I also think the drop was directly related to Bendgate and iOS8's issues.

So I think iPhone 6 was not Apple's smoothest, most successful release--overall--even if it is their best selling. I think it's one of their worse, for what it's done to their reputation.
 
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What is so crazy about what I'm saying?

Nothing really, people are probably just reacting to the language you're using to communicate your position and getting defensive. I don't see anything crazy about the opposite position, either.

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With all the editing activity, it can be a challenge to keep track of what exactly you are trying to say... ;)
 
Nothing really, people are probably just reacting to the language you're using to communicate your position and getting defensive. I don't see anything crazy about the opposite position, either.

Yeah, it was a mistake to stick with the term "relative flop" just for the sake of argument.

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Nothing really, people are probably just reacting to the language you're using to communicate your position and getting defensive. I don't see anything crazy about the opposite position, either.

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With all the editing activity, it can be a challenge to keep track of what exactly you are trying to say... ;)

Haha. The only thing that is constant is change.
 
The only time that would happen is when a frequency is exactly half the frequency. And in the real world you need to low pass filter so you wouldn't ever be trying to sample that frequency in the first place.

Well, subsampling kind of IS a low-pass filter. And that doesn't change the fact that you cannot accurately represent the amplitude of a sine wave by sampling at half its frequency.

Nope, for frequencies below half the sample rate, you get the frequency and the amplitude. That's exactly what nyquist says, it's hard for people to believe you don't need a much higher sample rate but that's how it is.

Who cares what Nyquist says? Draw a sine wave, and put some dots on it. If you sample the waveform at anything less than around 3x the signal frequency, you get severe beating of the signal. If you sample at exactly 2x, you cannot tell anything about the signal amplitude, except that it is at least a certain value. Or, to take it to an extreme case, you can still fit an infinite amplitude sine wave through the points.

If you get to choose where your sample points are, then a minimum of 2x is fine. If you don't, and they are forced to be evenly spaced, you need to use 3x.
 
Nobody? That's a pretty big universal quantifier.

You're right. I'll correct that to "nobody who actually has a clue about the stock market". At least not based on a three percent stock move, if a stock dropped 10 or 20 or 50 percent in a day then I'd totally agree.

This is not an everyday occurrence we're talking about. It is rare for Apple to slip.

Last three percent drop was September 2. And if you go back and look at the numbers (which is what we should do if we want to compare relative to previous iPhone releases), for virtually every iPhone release there was a day following the release with a similar one day drop. A couple only in the 2.2-2.3% range, but others 4-6%. In one day.

So were all of those releases "relative flops"?

Who are these "people" who don't take the stock market, just sales, into consideration when making an overall judgement about the success of a product release?

Well informed people certainly don't make an overall judgement about the success of a product release based on the stock market performance for one day (not even release day). Especially when the next day sees the stock bouncing right back.

I'm not alone in thinking this, as the stock market showed last week.

So assuming the stock market did think that last week based on that one day...you're saying they thought that and then the very next day did a 180 and suddenly went back to thinking it was a good product again?
 
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