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All this with property that didn't belong to the guy who found it. Doesn't matter if it was lost or stolen. If I found an unknown car in my driveway with the keys in it, I can't just go selling it!!!

If I were this guy, I would have just made a blog somewhere, put adsense on it, take a bunch of pictures of the phone and just email the link to everyone (and hope the server he's running it on can handle all the traffic). Using the analogy above it would be the same as taking pictures of that unknown car and posting pictures on the internet.
 
Because no one has ever stolen anything out of someone's pocket, right?
It's a joke, dude. Relax.

I'm sorry, but no one is so stupid as you pretend to be. You do not believe that this is like "one of our phones" worth a few hundred dollars and that its legal importance is the same as after the release of a product likely to sell some millions of copies.

Justice may or not be blind, but it is not required to be an idiot.
I beg to differ, plenty of people are that stupid. And $300 is quite a bit, worth police tracking it down.

The thing here is that one of the alleged criminals published their crime on the internet. Made the whole 'searching for lost item' portion pretty damn simple.
 
You still fail

1. It is a restaurant. Not a place to get drunk. This is not Europe, and he is apparently a real professional unlike you or your friends. This is the US where it appears people are a bit more responsible when they go to a restaurant to have a birthday diner with their uncle.

2. This is part or Apples normal field testing program. Yes, this includes restaurants

3. Again, not a pub, a RESTAURANT. Apple actually pays this guys money to take this prototype out into the real world and test it (under disguise). Imagine that, Apple paying a baseband engineer to go out and make sure the baseband actually works!

4. Again, he was not drunk, he was not on the "clock". Again, apparently in the US we are responsible enough to be able to go out to diner, and have a beer with diner unlike you or your European friends.

He is supposed to take the prototype with him as his normal job. He actually gets paid to take this prototype with him under disguise. He wasn't fired, so apparently Apple doesn't think he did anything wrong.

Again, nice try, next time bring some facts to the argument.

1. I have been to the states and i have been out with my Professional colleges states side, they can drink just fine! And I am not professional cause I go out for a drink with my work mates.... ? Yeah people drink at beer gardens! See point 3.

2. You have no idea what is within their field testing boundaries so ease up on the assumptions

3. Its a BEER GARDEN, apologies all you want but do not BS about what the establishment is. Its not a restaurant! Geez... you go to to beer garden for fine beers, food is secondary. Google then if you must... Beer Garden.. oww yeah the website kinda lack references to the menu or food, good info on the beers they have.

4. And you know this how. You were there? Geez talk about making up facts

Nice try? So it is better if I just make up Facts like you did? 1. Americans can drink 2. Apple field testing testing is limited to certain establishments 3. Okay this is real, a Beer garden is not a Restaurant 4. He was drunk. There you go, my facts that are about as solid as yours.
 
If this whole thing has hurt Apple in some way, then I agree with prosecuting them.
However, I believe that Apple received much more free media on this than what it has cost them. And did it really cost them?

Let's state the obvious: Gizmodo paid $5,000 for the phone. Engadget offered $10,000 put retracted the offer when they figured out buying the phone would make them criminals. So obviously Engadget would have gladly paid Apple $10,000 or probably $20,000 to buy that iPhone prototype legally.

To be clear, I was making a moral and not a legal point. What California laws says, while relevant to what may happen to Mr. Chen, is of little relevance in a broader sense. Nobody smashed a window in Cupertino and pulled out an iPhone or picked someone's pocket. Morally, the actions involved are all blameless.

I think your moral compass is somehow bent.

Wrong moron its a problem in California, each state makes up their own laws when it comes to Theft. So what is considered Theft in California or for that in that county may not be considered a crime in say New York. So go back to apple and get your paycheck.

Apart from the gratuitous insult, you could have checked §252 of the New York property law, which says "1. ...any person who finds lost property of the value of twenty dollars or more or comes into possession of property of the value of twenty dollars or more with knowledge that it is lost property or found property shall, within ten days after the finding or acquisition of possession thereof, either return it to the owner or report such finding or acquisition of possession and deposit such property in a police station or police headquarters of the city where the finding occurred or possession was acquired..." and "3. any person who shall refuse or wilfully neglect to comply with the provisions of subdivision one or subdivision two of this section shall be guilty of a misdemeanor and upon conviction thereof shall be punished by a fine of not more than one hundred dollars or imprisonment not exceeding six months or both".

This seems to apply both to the original finder and to Gizmodo as well. Jail time according to New York law. Now maybe in one of the other forty-eight states of the USA it is legal... I somehow doubt it.
 
I'll tackle this one guys. :)

I'm rather confused about this whole thing. Is possession still 9/10th of the law? Is Apple alleging that the prototype was stolen out of the employee's bag?

If you read the affidavit, you'll see that the engineer originally in possession of the phone says he thinks it is possible that it was stolen from his bag while he was away from the table, but doesn't necessarily think that's the case. He doesn't *know* exactly how it became separated from the rest of his stuff.

I'm fuzzing on the whole thing and not trying to be coy.

Fair enough. I'll answer with that in mind.

Are you obligated under the law to return lost property?

In California, and most other states as well, yes.

It might be the decent thing to do but how far does the person have to go by law that recovered the lost property?

In California, you are not legally the owner of found property. In fact, if you take that property into your possession, you have willingly taken on the obligation to get said property back to its owner. Failing that, you are required to turn it in to the police. If, 90 days after that, the item hasn't been claimed, you can then pick it up a the police station and you are now the owner of said found property. (Items over $250 in value require an additional 7 days of notices in local papers in an attempt to locate the owner, and you'll be reimburse the police for those notices before you can claim the found property.)

How is the guy that recovered the device supposed to know if it's authentic? The average person knows little about how to navigate their personal computer they've been using for years. He may have known it was an iPhone but would he necessarily know it's the new generation unless he already owned one? I'll admit that I'm not sure about the selling part but again neither party can really confirm the authenticity.

Irrelevant. He knew it wasn't his. If it's not his, he can't legally sell it regardless of its authenticity.

My wife recently lost her iPhone. She kept calling it and I sent text messages that if it was recovered to please call. I pulled it up on the AT&T map and told my wife where it was. Thinking no one had the phone, I sent a text to it for her to call me once she found it in the park. Within a few minutes, the device was intentionally shut off and just prior someone read all my wife's new emails. She confirmed through her Gmail account. We both showed up at the park and no one fessed-up to having it. I'm sure who ever recovered it kept it or sold it.

That sucks. If you, or the police, ever find evidence of who stole it, the investigation may be reopened and charges may be filed. In this particular case, Chen, through the Gizmodo articles, publicly admitted to and bragged about buying the phone, despite knowing who the real owner was and that the seller was not the same person.

AT&T told me they do nothing about someone trying to activate a stolen phone since they don't track that stuff anymore.

That really sucks. If I had it happen to me, and I could get charges filed, I'd probably press to have AT&T charged as an accomplice, since they have been made aware that a certain phone, which has a unique identifier they're aware of, is stolen property.

Is this case kind of the same thing? Or is it different because Gizmodo published photos? If so, isn't it only on Gizmodo then for publishing the photos?

More or less exactly the same kind of thing. Gizmodo pulled a stupid and publicly admitted to their actions, and as a result got caught. That's the big difference. The person with your wife's phone didn't do something so stupid, so he/she may get away with it.

On the other hand, if it's an iPhone, and you've registered the serial number, you may be able to alert Apple, and if it ever gets sent in for service, it *can* be retained. It doesn't always happen, but it has worked before with other Apple hardware.
 
3. Its a BEER GARDEN, apologies all you want but do not BS about what the establishment is. Its not a restaurant! Geez... you go to to beer garden for fine beers, food is secondary. Google then if you must... Beer Garden.. oww yeah the website kinda lack references to the menu or food, good info on the beers they have.

4. And you know this how. You were there? Geez talk about making up facts

Nice try? So it is better if I just make up Facts like you did? 1. Americans can drink 2. Apple field testing testing is limited to certain establishments 3. Okay this is real, a Beer garden is not a Restaurant 4. He was drunk. There you go, my facts that are about as solid as yours.

#4 does not follow from above. One can drink and not get drunk, particularly if you wait after you drink.

However, that may be beyond your experience (and self control).
 
1. I have been to the states and i have been out with my Professional colleges states side, they can drink just fine! And I am not professional cause I go out for a drink with my work mates.... ? Yeah people drink at beer gardens! See point 3.

2. You have no idea what is within their field testing boundaries so ease up on the assumptions

3. Its a BEER GARDEN, apologies all you want but do not BS about what the establishment is. Its not a restaurant! Geez... you go to to beer garden for fine beers, food is secondary. Google then if you must... Beer Garden.. oww yeah the website kinda lack references to the menu or food, good info on the beers they have.

4. And you know this how. You were there? Geez talk about making up facts

Nice try? So it is better if I just make up Facts like you did? 1. Americans can drink 2. Apple field testing testing is limited to certain establishments 3. Okay this is real, a Beer garden is not a Restaurant 4. He was drunk. There you go, my facts that are about as solid as yours.

Yes it is a restaurant. I have been there.

Try reading the affadavit which also calls it a restaurant.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/31379912/iPhone-Affidavit
 
To be clear, I was making a moral and not a legal point. What California laws says, while relevant to what may happen to Mr. Chen, is of little relevance in a broader sense. Nobody smashed a window in Cupertino and pulled out an iPhone or picked someone's pocket. Morally, the actions involved are all blameless.

While I'm not entirely sure I agree with the vigor of the prosecution being conducted, this statement is just insane. You can't take something that you know doesn't belong to you, hang around for a couple of hours to see if anyone shows up to claim it, and, when they don't, start shopping it around to the highest bidder on the Web, and state that it is "morally blameless."

I think it would be fair to state that it's "something one might get away with," but that is a FAR CRY from "morally blameless."
 
#4 does not follow from above. One can drink and not get drunk, particularly if you wait after you drink.

However, that may be beyond your experience (and self control).
\

Mate these are the factors that generally determine what you tolerance is

your weight
whether you’re male or female
your age
how quickly or slowly your body turns food into energy (your metabolism)
your stress levels
how much food you have eaten
the type and strength of the alcohol
whether you’re taking medication and, if so, what type

your theory of drinking and waiting...
 
Yes it is a restaurant. I have been there.

Try reading the affadavit which also calls it a restaurant.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/31379912/iPhone-Affidavit

Cheers, next time I visit the US, I will check out Affadavits for Restaurants, they have an app for that?

Why not just go to their homesite

http://www.gourmethausstaudt.com/

or facebook page

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Redwood-City-CA/Gourmet-Haus-Staudt-Beer-Garden-Staudt/109863047004

Struggling to find the blatant references to a restaurant... there is something about a beer garden, and geez they seem to have a hell of alot images of beers.

Now repeat B E E R G A R D E N..... though honestly its a store with a beer garden out the back.
 
Cheers, next time I visit the US, I will check out Affadavits for Restaurants, they have an app for that?

Why not just go to their homesite

http://www.gourmethausstaudt.com/

or facebook page

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Redwood-City-CA/Gourmet-Haus-Staudt-Beer-Garden-Staudt/109863047004

Struggling to find the blatant references to a restaurant... there is something about a beer garden, and geez they seem to have a hell of alot images of beers.

Now repeat B E E R G A R D E N..... though honestly its a store with a beer garden out the back.

They are a B E E R G A R D E N in the sense that they have 10 taps with 10 German beers at their restaurant.

Again, I have been there, it is a restaurant with tables and people to there to eat diner and drink a good german beer or two with said meal.

It is not a place people go to to get smashing drunk.

Apparently Americans can eat diner more responsibly than you. Sad really.
 
Originally Posted by reckless2k2 View Post
I'm rather confused about this whole thing. Is possession still 9/10th of the law? Is Apple alleging that the prototype was stolen out of the employee's bag? I'm fuzzing on the whole thing and not trying to be coy. Are you obligated under the law to return lost property? It might be the decent thing to do but how far does the person have to go by law that recovered the lost property?
How is the guy that recovered the device supposed to know if it's authentic? The average person knows little about how to navigate their personal computer they've been using for years. He may have known it was an iPhone but would he necessarily know it's the new generation unless he already owned one?

I'll admit that I'm not sure about the selling part but again neither party can really confirm the authenticity. My wife recently lost her iPhone. She kept calling it and I sent text messages that if it was recovered to please call. I pulled it up on the AT&T map and told my wife where it was. Thinking no one had the phone, I sent a text to it for her to call me once she found it in the park. Within a few minutes, the device was intentionally shut off and just prior someone read all my wife's new emails. She confirmed through her Gmail account. We both showed up at the park and no one fessed-up to having it. I'm sure who ever recovered it kept it or sold it. AT&T told me they do nothing about someone trying to activate a stolen phone since they don't track that stuff anymore.

Is this case kind of the same thing? Or is it different because Gizmodo published photos? If so, isn't it only on Gizmodo then for publishing the photos?


If he didn't know it was a prototype and / or stolen how do you explain him selling a smartphone for $5000 when legal smartphones sell new for much less than 1/5 of that price.
 
There are pix of beer garden patrons there with nothing in front of them but beer. On the other hand, it has nothing to do with the criminal guilt/innocence over the phone even if Powell's BAC was .30
 
That doesn't answer my question and where does it state that the person who lost the prototype wasn't intoxicated? But what do I know, I'm a European and always drunk whilst you Yanks are teetotallers :rolleyes: Relax, it's only a prototype, not the solotion to that horrendous oil spill.

Page 15, Gray says he ate diner with his uncle and was there for about 2h.

Doesn't say he was drunk, nor would I expect someone to be on a weekday night out for a diner with his uncle. If he had been intoxicated or incapacitated he would have noted this in the police sworn affadavit.

Again, some people are capable of being professionals and having a beer without loosing control. In fact a majority of people I know can safely consume 1-2 beers at diner with family or friends and legally drive home without incident.

You can trump this up to all you want to in your mind, but the fact disagree with your assessment.
 
Cheers, next time I visit the US, I will check out Affadavits for Restaurants, they have an app for that?

Why not just go to their homesite

http://www.gourmethausstaudt.com/

or facebook page

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Redwood-City-CA/Gourmet-Haus-Staudt-Beer-Garden-Staudt/109863047004

Struggling to find the blatant references to a restaurant... there is something about a beer garden, and geez they seem to have a hell of alot images of beers.

Now repeat B E E R G A R D E N..... though honestly its a store with a beer garden out the back.

Just to make it a bit simpler for you (since you're apparently too dense to get it yourself):

Gourmet Haus Staudt & Beer Garden Staudt Facebook Page said:
GOURMET HAUS STAUDT IS A GERMAN SPECIALTY STORE FEATURING A LARGE SELECTION OF GERMAN FOODS, SPICES, BEERS AND GIFTS. WE ALSO HAVE A GERMAN BEER GARDEN IN THE BACK OF THE SHOP’ WITH 11 GERMAN BEERS ON TAP AND 2 GUEST TAPS. SELECTION ON FACEBOOK

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Redwood-City-CA/Gourmet-Haus-Staudt-Beer-Garden-Staudt/109863047004

Their website should barely qualify as a source of information, although the people on here saying, "I've been there and it's a nice restaurant, not a bar," should have been a big tip-off for you.

Now, you can finally shut up about that and get to the real point: It doesn't matter whether he was drunk or not, whether he left the phone by accident or if it was taken from him. It belonged to him (or rather, he was the caretaker, and it belonged to Apple, but the legal requirements are the same), and thus the person who found it (and didn't own it) could not sell it without making a reasonable effort to get it back to him, the requirements for which are spelled out to the letter in CA law. The idiot who found the phone did not meet any of the legal requirements pertaining to the finder of lost property, and sold an item that he knew was not his to sell, making $5000 in the process. That constitutes a significant crime (probably going to be charged as Grand Theft, unless he cops a plea and gets Chen and Lam convicted instead, although I personally wouldn't let him get away with that if I were the DA).

There, now stop your b****ing about nonsensical stuff.

jW
 
They are a B E E R G A R D E N in the sense that they have 10 taps with 10 German beers at their restaurant.

Again, I have been there, it is a restaurant with tables and people to there to eat diner and drink a good german beer or two with said meal.

It is not a place people go to to get smashing drunk.

Apparently Americans can eat diner more responsibly than you. Sad really.

What do you actually think a beer garden is??

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beer_garden

Heard of Octoberfest? Yup its just huge collection of restaurants in germany that would so much more sophisticated if only Americans attended. Damn those Europeans! They are all alcoholics

Are you serious?? So when you went there no one was drunk?
 
To be clear, I was making a moral and not a legal point. What California laws says, while relevant to what may happen to Mr. Chen, is of little relevance in a broader sense. Nobody smashed a window in Cupertino and pulled out an iPhone or picked someone's pocket. Morally, the actions involved are all blameless.

Obviously your morals are a little suspect as well.
 
What do you actually think a beer garden is??

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beer_garden

Heard of Octoberfest? Yup its just huge collection of restaurants in germany that would so much more sophisticated if only Americans attended. Damn those Europeans! They are all alcoholics

Are you serious?? So when you went there no one was drunk?

Again, I have been there.

It is a restaurant. Their "beer garden" is a small bar area that has a long tap with 10 german beers. They also have a little shop that sells a bunch of german foods.

The rest of the place has tables, chairs. They have a menu of german foods that they serve with their german beers.

B E E R G A R D E N in the sense of this place is "hipster" term for a restaurant with good beers.

The clientele when I was there on a Friday night was groups of professionals and VC type diner meetings, a few couples and a few families with kids all enjoying dinner and a couple of really good beers with diner.

You can keep grasping at straws, but it is pretty comical.
 
Just to make it a bit simpler for you (since you're apparently too dense to get it yourself):



http://www.facebook.com/pages/Redwood-City-CA/Gourmet-Haus-Staudt-Beer-Garden-Staudt/109863047004

Their website should barely qualify as a source of information, although the people on here saying, "I've been there and it's a nice restaurant, not a bar," should have been a big tip-off for you.

Now, you can finally shut up about that and get to the real point: It doesn't matter whether he was drunk or not, whether he left the phone by accident or if it was taken from him. It belonged to him (or rather, he was the caretaker, and it belonged to Apple, but the legal requirements are the same), and thus the person who found it (and didn't own it) could not sell it without making a reasonable effort to get it back to him, the requirements for which are spelled out to the letter in CA law. The idiot who found the phone did not meet any of the legal requirements pertaining to the finder of lost property, and sold an item that he knew was not his to sell, making $5000 in the process. That constitutes a significant crime (probably going to be charged as Grand Theft, unless he cops a plea and gets Chen and Lam convicted instead, although I personally wouldn't let him get away with that if I were the DA).

There, now stop your b****ing about nonsensical stuff.

jW

The concept of a beer garden seems too complex on some I see. Enjoy Chiba, do not forget to call the temples churches, same same.

My point was that he guys who lost it was an idiot, I am not arguing the legal stance on this. Trying reading the context. I already stated that by law this is a crime.
 
Again, I have been there.

It is a restaurant. Their "beer garden" is a small bar area that has a long tap with 10 german beers. They also have a little shop that sells a bunch of german foods.

The rest of the place has tables, chairs. They have a menu of german foods that they serve with their german beers.

B E E R G A R D E N in the sense of this place is "hipster" term for a restaurant with good beers.

The clientele when I was there on a Friday night was groups of professionals and VC type diner meetings, a few couples and a few families with kids all enjoying dinner and a couple of really good beers with diner.

You can keep grasping at straws, but it is pretty comical.

Okay... lets try this. What is your definition of a Beer garden? That us crazy drunk european have here in Germany?
 
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