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how did jobs know they had the device?

Did you bother to read the affidavit? No? Okay, then be quiet.

Jobs knew Gizmodo had the phone because the guy that stole it and the roommate both cooperated with the police. The other roommate who turned them both in called the police AND managed to track down Apple headquarters to alert them.

Funny how both Gizmodo and the guy who stole it both knew that the phone belonged to Gray Powell...regardless if it belonged to Apple or not.

So either way, they both engaged in illegal activity by buying and selling property that they knew didn't belong to them.
 
BFD. Chen returned the "stolen" property to apple on his own free will. No jury will convict because of that. The only thing he will get nailed for is the trade secrets thing.
If someone steals your computer, displays all your info on the web, breaks it and then returns it to you, I guess you won't have a problem. Good for you.
so what? he had to disassemble the damn thing to verify it was really an apple device. after he realized who it belonged to, he returned it to its owner.
They don't need to verify s**t. If they really aren't sure who it belonged to, they go to the police and leave it there.
also, its apple's own fault if the information revealed by their lost prototype caused any damage. if the trade secrets contained within that prototype are so valuable apple should have tethered it physically to the user or installed a tracking device because phones are very easy to lose.
The day someone steals your car or PC or whatever I hope the policeman tells you "You should've tethered it".
riiiiight. he damaged a phone that wasnt working to begin with.
Blocked software is different from broken hardware.
oh so some guy calls on the phone and says I'm steve jobs, thats my phone, and he's supposed to give it back? how did steve jobs even know he had it?
Two options then: give it back to Powell or go to the police. Not disassemble it.


I don't believe the law says you have to hand found things over to the police. It says you must make a "reasonable" effort to find the owner. It will be a matter of of a jury's opinion if the finder made a reasonable effort.
Sure. But it is pretty obvious that he didn't. I mean he knew about Powell since the beginning, yet he had it for weeks. Also if you are not going to make any effort to return it why take it?
Chen? Publishing where thousands of Apple fans will read it will not guarantee Apple will be contacted? He could have quietly returned it to Apple and published nothing, yes, and that might be considered unethical to do it the way he did. You can't say he tried to hide the fact he had it, and he did ask Apple to confirm it was their phone. Publishing in the Lost and Found in a newspaper is certainly considered a reasonable effort.
Comparison fail. First, they purchased a stolen item - why they didn't just purchase access to the item, take photos and be done with it? Also destroying it doesn't fit very well your story.
Proving damage was done to Apple is next to impossible.
Just wait and see, you would be surprised. But yes, I hope they don't go over the top.
The damage is to their pride in their secrecy and surprises as a marketing strategy.
Pretty much yes. And they have every right to defend this.
What Apple really wants is to make anyone think very hard about what's happening to Chen before outing their unreleased products, and decide it just isn't worth it.
Of course, and it makes sense.
 
Civil code is for lawsuits. Criminal code is more lax (though far from met in this case).
 
We all have our opinions. Reasonable doubt is a very personal interpretation, and will ultimately depend on a judge's opinion, and then a jury's if it gets that far. I guarantee the jury will not be composed of people who read Apple blogs, and that is a much less Apple sympathetic crowd. Lots of casual observers think Apple is making way too much of this.

I don't believe the law says you have to hand found things over to the police. It says you must make a "reasonable" effort to find the owner. It will be a matter of of a jury's opinion if the finder made a reasonable effort. Chen? Publishing where thousands of Apple fans will read it will not guarantee Apple will be contacted? He could have quietly returned it to Apple and published nothing, yes, and that might be considered unethical to do it the way he did. You can't say he tried to hide the fact he had it, and he did ask Apple to confirm it was their phone. Publishing in the Lost and Found in a newspaper is certainly considered a reasonable effort.

There is plenty of reasonable doubt in my mind that the intention for either was to keep the left behind iPhone for themselves. Several people have drawn the car analogy, of driving and bring it back - that is often considered "joyriding" rather than "Grand theft auto." Clearly the intent can make a difference, or there would be no such thing as joyriding. There are specific laws that deal with autos, not so with phones. The finder did profit from the owner's misfortune, and it does look like he had a chance to contact him and did not - that is certainly what is alledged. He may see punishment. I doubt either he or Chen will be treated like someone who tried to sell it on eBay or a pawn shop by a jury. It is certainly doubtful to me that Chen intentionally broke it, but he did show the world he took it apart. He may well be held responsible for the damage to the prototype. I don't think Chen or the finder acted ethically, by any means.

Proving damage was done to Apple is next to impossible. Everyone realize Apple stock is higher now than the day Apple asked for it's phone back, April 19? And that some analysts have raised the projected value to $320 per share? The new iPhone will be a huge success as always.

I don't try to justify anything either of these guys did. I wouldn't have asked for money for it, and I wouldn't have paid for it. I just express doubt that jury will easily convict them of theft. I do doubt that any real damage was done to Apple at all, other than the protoype damage, which isn't all that valuable if millions of them will be sold in a couple of months. The damage is to their pride in their secrecy and surprises as a marketing strategy. Industrial espionage? It hasn't been mentioned much so far, but I'm sure it will be if the theft doesn't take. If you read about industrial espionage cases, this doesn't quite fit it, especially if the engineer truly dropped his phone. What Apple really wants is to make anyone think very hard about what's happening to Chen before outing their unreleased products, and decide it just isn't worth it.

The judge's charge to the jury will frame the issues very differently. Chen's criminal culpability will not turn on the question of the finder's efforts to return, since the finder sold the phone to him, an act that moots that question. When the finder sold the phone, he became a thief, since selling an object is inconsistent with attempting to return it. The finder had not obtained title to the phone by complying with the civil code, and therefore Chen's guilt will turn on the question of whether a reasonable person would have questioned the provenance of the phone, conducted an appropriate inquiry, and , if so, would have reasonably concluded that the phone belonged to the finder. Gizmodo has published an account which is an admission that Chen was aware of facts that made it quite clear that the finder had no ability to deliver title. That finding leads to a duty of Chen to return the phone to the engineer or to Apple, and prohibits him from taking any action inconsistent with the rights of the true owner--such as disassembling it.

And this analysis ignores the damning evidence that apparently will be offered by the female roommate to the state of mind of the finder. I can assume the facial expressions of the jury listening to the "sucks to be him" testimony will not be encouraging to the defendant or his counsel.

I imagine the reference to "negation" is intended to refer to jury nullification. As someone who has served as the foreman of three juries, and as counsel in several dozen criminal trials, I can tell you that juries take a judge's charge very seriously indeed. Jurors swear an oath to follow the law, and they take that seriously too.

People who serve on juries certainly have prejudices, but it is one thing to spout opinions at the water cooler, on talk radio, or on message boards; it is quite another to ignore a judge's charge, to violate an oath, and to ignore the opinions of eleven fellow jurors. And if one juror reports to the judge that a fellow juror is advocating nullification, the judge will dismiss him and empanel an alternate.

Obviously I can't be certain what the jury will ultimately hear, but I am confident that if the evidence follows the recitals in the affidavit submitted in support of the search warrant, it would be highly likely that Chen is convicted of a felony. In reality, though, it is much more likely that Chen will plead guilty, and unless there is some very surprising evidence that has not become public as yet, he would be well-advised to.

It should be abundantly clear that the D.A. is loaded for bear on this one, and I'm not betting on the bear.
 
If someone steals your computer, displays all your info on the web, breaks it and then returns it to you, I guess you won't have a problem. Good for you.

thanks for the useless analogy that has no relevance to to my point. Oh btw, its not against the law to display someone else information. That's why we have passwords you know.

They don't need to verify s**t. If they really aren't sure who it belonged to, they go to the police and leave it there.

first you have to try and make a reasonable effort to return it to the owner, now just turn it into the police? make up your minds already!! oh and what about all those lost and found places.. i guess they're guilty of theft too by your logic? lol

The day someone steals your car or PC or whatever I hope the policeman tells you "You should've tethered it".

try to keep up. I'm talking about trade secrets. if one of coca cola's chemists took the secret coke recipe and put in his pocket and somehow lost it in a restaurant and it was later found by someone who posted it on the web, whose fault is that??

Blocked software is different from broken hardware.

who cares? it wasnt working when he took possesion of it.

Two options then: give it back to Powell or go to the police. Not disassemble it.

disassembling it isnt against the law.
 
Are you kidding me

So, do you think if I called the police right now and told them I think I lost my iPhone and it was most likely stolen they would open an investigation and go breaking down doors?! ROFL. They would basically laugh at me.

Heck, if I called them and told them my car was stolen out of my driveway last night I'm guessing it would be hours before they even showed up to take a report. After that I would probably not hear anything again except through my insurance company.

This has everything to do with Apple being a multi-billion dollar company with lots of pull.

This has to be the dumbest thing I have ever heard. I actually registered just to comment on this chunk of writing.

Let us look hard at your example. First of all lets assume you lost a car, lets say it was even a reasonably expensive car, hell even a very expensive car, lets say a Bentley. So your Bentley gets taken out of your driveway, or hell even for arguments sake, you leave it parked outside a bar with the keys in it. You come back and its gone. ****** day for you, no doubt. So you call the police and they take the requisite two hours to show up. You make a report and then call your insurance company.

Next, a few days later you a police officer gets a phone call from a girl who is panic stricken because her friend showed up with this new stolen Bentley and parked it in her garage. He told her it was stolen and started to shop it around for dealers who would buy it. The girl tried to tell him to return it, but he made one phone call to a service shop certified by Bentley to fix cars who clearly wouldn't have gotten the APB on the stolen Bentley in the first place, cause they fix Bentley's. She is all paranoid that the police are going to be able to track the tire marks it left in her garage and she wants nothing to do with it. So she tells all this to the good cop.

By your analogy you think the police are going to hang up the phone and not do anything? Come on man. The police were served this up on a platter. Its not even a complicated search warrant.

Clearly he new he had something special and weather or not he stole it was immaterial to weather he tried to benefit from it.

To say this is only cause Apple is a billion dollar company and they wouldn't do the same for you is not only ignorant its just plain dumb. I guarantee any theft file where a person calls in to the police as a witness to the theft and possession of the stolen property, not only is that matter going to be solved, people are going to be prosecuted.

Was it helped by the fact that the police had a dedicated team that investigates this kind of crime, SURE. Does this team exist because this county is full of MAJOR cooperations who take intellectual property and trade secrets very very seriously, YES. Does any of this make it less of a crime or more difficult to investigate? No.
 
thanks for the useless analogy that has no relevance to to my point. Oh btw, its not against the law to display someone else information. That's why we have passwords you know.

Depending on where you are, it is against the law to display someone else's information, depending of course on the information and how you obtained it and who you are relative to the matter at hand.

first you have to try and make a reasonable effort to return it to the owner, now just turn it into the police? make up your minds already!! oh and what about all those lost and found places.. i guess they're guilty of theft too by your logic? lol

I would think, as would most reasonable people, that turning something of value over to the police would, in fact, be making an effort to return it to its rightful owner. They would be one in the same. Going to a police station and saying this isn't mind can you look after it legally for me, probably would have been a good idea in this case.

try to keep up. I'm talking about trade secrets. if one of coca cola's chemists took the secret coke recipe and put in his pocket and somehow lost it in a restaurant and it was later found by someone who posted it on the web, whose fault is that??

I think BOTH people would be at fault. But this is a terrible analogy to what has transpired in this case. The formula for Coke has no business being out of a lab, it doesn't need to be field tested. A new phone, on the other hand, obviously does; therefore we would expect it to be out in the public. In your oversimplified analogy it is ridiculous to think why that formula would be brought out, it served no purpose. The same cannot be said for the new version of the iPhone, clearly field testing serves a purpose. To fully answer your quote. The guy who posted it on the web after finding it, also at fault and likely guilty of a crime, the guy who took it from the lab, also stupid. Same cannot be said for Apples engineer.

disassembling it isnt against the law.

In this case it is, it revelled information that otherwise wouldn't have been known and that was a TRADE SECRET. Also in the disassembling it was very badly damaged which is, yep your guessed it, also a crime.
 
@wreckshop
I was going to answer, but srdunn did it for me. Only one point he didn't address:
who cares? it wasnt working when he took possesion of it.
Reinstalling software or unblocking it doesn't really cost. Repairing it costs. The owner cares.
Also, about the reasonable effort:
first you have to try and make a reasonable effort to return it to the owner, now just turn it into the police? make up your minds already!! oh and what about all those lost and found places.. i guess they're guilty of theft too by your logic? lol
You don't even try to understand do you? How would a law work if it only says "return it to the owner"? What if you don't know who the owner is or you cannot contact him? That's why you have another option - pretty obvious for most people.
http://law.justia.com/california/codes/civ/2080-2080.10.html
In fact it is you who should keep up.
 
In the end I have 5 minutes so:
thanks for the useless analogy that has no relevance to to my point. Oh btw, its not against the law to display someone else information. That's why we have passwords you know.
In this case it is against the law. You stated this:
BFD. Chen returned the "stolen" property to apple on his own free will. No jury will convict because of that. The only thing he will get nailed for is the trade secrets thing.
And I answered "If someone steals your computer, displays all your info on the web, breaks it and then returns it to you, I guess you won't have a problem. Good for you."
It's not useless. Chen bought stolen property, displayed secret information and broke the device. So the fact that he returned it won't save him.
try to keep up. I'm talking about trade secrets. if one of coca cola's chemists took the secret coke recipe and put in his pocket and somehow lost it in a restaurant and it was later found by someone who posted it on the web, whose fault is that??
I can't keep up here - very bad analogy. Are you talking about fault? If Apple's employee is at fault, it is up to Apple to decide, but two things
1. Loosing something is not a crime
2. It doesn't somehow justify the theft and all the rest
 
Yeah That sounds like a great idea
who wouldnt trade the last thread of freedom we have in america for the sake of Apple
 
Ok I'm tired of replying back and forth, lets just settle this with a bet.

since u guys are convinced that chen is guilty of theft and buying stolen property taking this bet shouldnt be a big deal. If chen gets convicted, i will stop posting on this messageboard forever. if he doesnt get convicted, the you only need to stop posting on this messageboard for a year.

Any takers? Atkins, srdunn, gwangung, lagunasol? anyone else? if u guys really think a jury will convict him step up to the plate and take my bet.
 
Ok I'm tired of replying back and forth, lets just settle this with a bet.

since u guys are convinced that chen is guilty of theft and buying stolen property taking this bet shouldnt be a big deal. If chen gets convicted, i will stop posting on this messageboard forever. if he doesnt get convicted, the you only need to stop posting on this messageboard for a year.

Any takers? Atkins, srdunn, gwangung, lagunasol? anyone else? if u guys really think a jury will convict him step up to the plate and take my bet.

If Chen pleads guilty, who wins?
 
It's a weird, pointless bet.

I'd think that it won't see a jury. One website claims that 15 of 16 cases get settled.
 
It's a weird, pointless bet.

I'd think that it won't see a jury. One website claims that 15 of 16 cases get settled.

It's a criminal case. It can't be settled. The charges can be dropped (unlikely with the tons of evidence available), or it ends with a "guilty" or "not guilty" verdict.
 
I've said repeatedly that I don't think the DA is after Chen so much as he's after "bigger fish" at Gizmodo/Gawker. It's my bet that Chen is already cooperating with authorities and I'm expecting him to end up pleading to some misdemeanor in exchange for testimony against a bigger fish.

Ditto for Hogan, BTW.

Mark
 
It's a criminal case. It can't be settled. The charges can be dropped (unlikely with the tons of evidence available), or it ends with a "guilty" or "not guilty" verdict.

settled=plea bargain/dropped charges=what you're saying, I may have been a little loose with the terminology. They can plead guilty and have no verdict except in the sense of the judge accepting the plea as the verdict.

I've been thinking about what if everyone pleads the fifth, gizmodo articles aren't admissable, Gizmodo says the articles are all lies, things like that. A lot of evidence that we see may not make it to a jury.
 
I've said repeatedly that I don't think the DA is after Chen so much as he's after "bigger fish" at Gizmodo/Gawker. It's my bet that Chen is already cooperating with authorities and I'm expecting him to end up pleading to some misdemeanor in exchange for testimony against a bigger fish.

Ditto for Hogan, BTW.

Mark

Chen did get himself a lawyer, so I imagine that is what is happening.
 
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