Avie Tevanian Leaving Apple?

[peharri]

This is just another fact that backs up my contention that Apple is switching to Windows ;-) (*ducks* No, no, I keed, I keed!)

Seriously, this is sad but I don't think it's anything like a disaster for Apple. I suspect the amount of Mac OS X that owes its development to recent decisions by Tevanian is getting lesser and lesser. Most of the major decisions that made a different to how Mac OS X is today were either made in the mid eighties, or in the late nineties. What you see happening to Mac OS X today is stuff built upon that platform, rather than changes to that platform. Usability designers are having a bigger impact than kernel designers.

At the same time, the changes that are coming down the line don't really have much to do with the kind of low level stuff Tevanian is famous for. I've said already my belief that OS vendors, Microsoft included, are mostly concerned about managed code right now. I'm sure Tevanian could do a reasonable job implementing such things, but I suspect Apple wants people who are more familiar with that school of computer architecture and can do as good a job, if not better, with people like Chris Lattner.

Anyway, good luck Avie, you've done a wonderful job with Mac OS X, we couldn't have had this good an operating system without you.

 

[sam10685]

who's avie tevanian? oh well... better not affect the ease and useability of OSX. (or any other thing he worked on.)

 

[dernhelm]

I assume you mean MkLinux? This isn't really a distro, but an experimental version of Linux that tries to host a Linux implementation on the Mach microkernel.

Many Unix variants (e.g. Solaris) stick with a monolithic kernel, and the use of modules on top of this allows for many of the advantages of microkernels, without the IPC-related performance issues that dog most microkernels.

Even XNU and Windows XP don't have true microkernels, they are "hybrid" kernels. For example, XNU has BSD kernel code in the kernel address space in order to cut down on the microkernel-related latency. In fact, to the "outside world", XNU appears as a monolithic kernel, due to its BSD layer.

There are definitely performance problems with OS X and its kernel. The biggest problem appears to be the fact that kernel-level threads cannot be used by userlevel programs. Also, Mach's fine-grained locking mechanisms are hidden beneath the BSD "monolithic kernel" layer. You can see the impact that the XNU kernel has on performance vs Linux in the (now infamous) graph here:

http://www.anandtech.com/mac/showdoc.aspx?i=2436&p=6

If Apple are going to have a "BSD layer", that essentially hides Mach, then they should just go all the way and use the BSD kernel. This would result in much better performance.

Man I am sick of seeing that reference. So few people have done multiplatform multi-threaded programming that people see something from AnandTech and assume that it's true - because they just don't know any better.

Read this: http://arstechnica.com/journals/apple.ars/2005/6/5/452

Anandtech goes through some lame BS explanation that fork() should be the same as threading -which is blatantly obviously wrong and shows how little they actually know about the topic. And yes, you can create "kernel" threads in OS/X - as a matter of fact the pthread interface (demanded by POSIX, hence the name) is a thinly veiled interface to the mach threads, and if needed, one can create mach threads directly from within the apple pthread "np" extensions.

I have not put any effort into figuring out why Anandtech's MySQL testing went so badly on OS/X and the G5 machines, but it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with threading layers on the microkernel architecture.

Please pass the word, I am really sick of seeing this.

 

[amateurmacfreak]

NOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!
Who?

Now, there are certain times when you don't say what you're thinking in a thread, and instead you just read.

 

[kirk26]

Does this mean we will get someone who can give us better "fun products" in the future than the crap crApple has pushed out in the past few years? I hope so.

 

[Marlor]

Man I am sick of seeing that reference. So few people have done multiplatform multi-threaded programming that people see something from AnandTech and assume that it's true - because they just don't know any better.

Read this: http://arstechnica.com/journals/apple.ars/2005/6/5/452

Thanks for that, I wasn't aware of those problems in Anand's explanation. However, the results remain the same. OS X is much slower than Linux for these operations, and I don't doubt that this is partly related to the half-monolithic/half-microkernel Frankenstein's monster that is the XNU kernel and the additional IPC overhead involved with microkernels.

 

[Macnoviz]

Kinda cute

 

[pizzach]

As a mature OS, Linux is even worse than Windows...what a crappy, barebones and nerdish OS...if you have a problem with it, you don't even know where to start troubleshooting...and software base is paltry to say the least...go figure.

You sound like a person who hasn't used linux before. I would prefer it any day to Windows. Er sorry, Winblows.

 

[iBookie]

Trading getting Steve'd for being Ballmered out?

Let's see........

1. Steve sells stock
2. Ipod sales sufferring - Apple said sales will slump this year
3. Macbook Pro problems
4. Top operating system position vacant
5. Apple being sued in France and England

Is something going on here.........

1. Apple switches to Intel
2. Windows Vista pushed back to 2007
3. Vista rumored to have 60% of code rewritten
4. MS fires a layer of Vista management
5. Avie "pursues other interests"

Is something going on here......

 

[Yvan256]

Well, I guess his leaving plays into the notion that Apple is moving from the Mac OS being based on Mach to being based on Windows.

Pretty wild.

Or Vista will be based on Mach. Think about that.

 

[d_and_n5000]

I read somewhere the other day that Mac sales still exceed iPod sales. Is this not true?

Fishes,
narco.

Of course Mac sales exceed iPod sales: You have everyone here buying Macs like groceries! A'course, you could argue the opposite, you have everyone buying iPods like cups of coffee - but you need computers before the iPods, otherwise there is no point to having the iPod

And too bad about Avie - but hey, everyone quits their job eventually,
sometimes against their will. Hey, maybe Steve has hatched a diabolical plot - have Avie quit and go to Microsoft, help rewrite that 60% of code in Vista - and make it all really bad coding, so everyone who uses it says "Screw this, I'm gonna go get an iMac!"

I've seen stranger stuff happening.

 

[peharri]

Or Vista will be based on Mach. Think about that.

Tevanian's joining Microsoft? Wow, now there's a rumour!

 

[baddaddy]

Maybe...

Maybe he is going to Microsoft to help them launch Vista sometime this decade. LOL

 

[Compile 'em all]

So you guys are gonna repeat again and again the same ol' test made by Anandtech on these crappy MySQL/Server benchmarks?

Gimme a break, please...OS is MUCH more than cryptic database tests and babblings about the best kernel. Anandtech's test has been around for months, and all you can cite is that now?

As a mature OS, Linux is even worse than Windows...what a crappy, barebones and nerdish OS...if you have a problem with it, you don't even know where to start troubleshooting...and software base is paltry to say the least...go figure.

I am not comparing OSs, I was just replying to another fellow poster who
were refering to a microkernel as a modern kernel and bashing monolithic
kernels on no basis whatsoever. Whether you like it or not, it is a fact a
microkernel suffers a significant preformance hit because of IPC overhead.

 

[ImAlwaysRight]

Eh, not to interested in this story/rumor/whatever. Where's some more dirt on the 13" WIDESCREEN MACBOOK? Is it coming out next week or what? Reliable rumors on these new Intel Macs have been few and far between. Enquiring minds wanna know!

 

[50548]

You sound like a person who hasn't used linux before. I would prefer it any day to Windows. Er sorry, Winblows.

Actually I have, back in 2002/3 at the Uni in Sweden...trust me, Linux sucks big time...printing support sucks, software base is close to zero, GUI is inconsistent and the number of distros just adds to the confusion...apart from the fact that, if something happens, you have NO idea, as an ordinary user, where to start troubleshooting...

Sorry, but Linux is for geeks and sysadmins...not laymen and home users.

 

[baddaddy]

What this really means...

I wouldn't know a kernal if it bit me in the ass, I buy Mac's because they work. Here is the bottom line, if he is leaving then 10.5 is done or near done. Wouldn't that be an interesting April 1 surprise.

 

[Peace]

Both Rubenstein and Tevanian are associated PPC..

I'd be willing to bet Serlet takes Avie's spot and Apple brings in a whiz from Intel...If they haven't already.

 

[gkarris]

This is what will happen

1. He really leaves to join the Microsoft Windows Vista Team.
2. He implements a bunch of OS X features in it (hence the delay to 2007).
3. MS releases Vista, and it looks almost like OS X.
4. Steve Jobs, now fed up, decides to retire.
5. Michael Dell buys Apple.
6. Macs, now having Intel Processors, now get the new Windows Vista instead.
7. Apple users revolt, waving bones and sticks around the new Apple 5th Ave. New York Store.

8. The sun then goes super nova and the solar system is destroyed...

Meanwhile, the Pioneer spacecraft lands on some distant planet with some level of technology. A person takes the disc that the spacecraft carries and puts it into their computer. A hidden file, which turns out to be the Microsoft Windows installer starts running...

 

[peharri]

Actually I have, back in 2002/3 at the Uni in Sweden...trust me, Linux sucks big time...printing support sucks, software base is close to zero, GUI is inconsistent and the number of distros just adds to the confusion...apart from the fact that, if something happens, you have NO idea, as an ordinary user, where to start troubleshooting...

Sorry, but Linux is for geeks and sysadmins...not laymen and home users.

Software base is zero? *snort*

The language you use doesn't help your case, BTW.

- the guy who mentioned Linux was refering to just that. There is no printing support in Linux, just as there's none in XNU. Nor is there a GUI, like XNU doesn't have a GUI.

- If you're talking about GNU/Linux, which isn't terribly relevent in a discussion about kernel performance, then there are several distros (as you mention), so which one are you refering to that you tried, that's worse than everything else, that's only suitable for "geeks and sysadmins"? And what relevence does it have to this discussion? Did someone propose switching out Quartz in favour of X11? I don't think so!

 

[peharri]

Presenting... the Thirtieth Anniversary Macintosh. The return of the Cube, now bigger and more powerful than ever before.

Good:

1024 Intel Core Duos 2GHz
1024Gb of RAM
40Gb HD
Combo drive
Radeon 9600 Graphics
$999,999

Better:

1024 Intel Core Duos 2.1Ghz
2048Gb of RAM
80Gb HD
Superdrive
Radeon 9600 Graphics
$1,499,999

Best

4096 Intel Core Duos 2.1GHz
4096Gb of RAM
80Gb HD
Superdrive
Intel Integrated Graphics (Shome mishtake, surely? - mod.)
$1,999,999

And, BTW, rumours of the new video iPod are true, they're coming out with a Thirtieth Anniversary model too, with a built in 60' screen...

 

[macFanDave]

What has Avie done for us lately?

No, seriously, I remember hearing about his impressive contributions to OS X at the beginning, but what has he added since then?

I'd like to know. From what I've seen, his departure is no big deal. If any of you know why I am wrong, please educate us.

 

[midiman]

Well, I guess his leaving plays into the notion that Apple is moving from the Mac OS being based on Mach to being based on Windows.

Pretty wild.

Wha???

OK, let's get this straight....Apple is switching to intel processors. They are not switching to windows. Why would they?

 

[Marlor]

Wha???

OK, let's get this straight....Apple is switching to intel processors. They are not switching to windows. Why would they?

John C. Dvorak wrote an article about how Apple might be switching to Windows. He was informed of this by a professor of psychology, who believed that the end of the Apple Switch campaign and the lack of Firewire on the new iPods meant that Apple must be adopting Windows as its new core.

Yes, it makes no sense, but then nothing Dvorak writes does.

 

[dr_lha]

Linux sucks big time...printing support sucks

Just to pick you up on this one comment, you do realise that that most modern Linux distros use the exact same printer subsystem (CUPS) as Mac OS X right?