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Barry Bonds* (Steroids)
- Thread starter treblah
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Counterfit said:
We can always hope.
Bonds made it through spring training in one piece. Not many at bats, but he was swinging well.
Les Kern said:
Les, you really should see someone about those violent dreams.
It really isn't the conduct of other players that worries me. They tend to support Barry, and don't like the way he is being singled out unfairly. It's the mob mentality of some fans that is whipped up by a blood thirsty media that worries me. I think there are some idiots out there who might try to do something to Bonds because of all of this crap.
Here's a pic of the guy had exploding arms .. I saw the show on him it was on tlc ... he surely took them ... nasty what does to your body/emotional state after a while on it .. ...
I've been scared of needles since i was little mate and still affects me today .. that's why i can't do any illegal stuff that involves needles ..
... I've been scared of needles since i was little mate and still affects me today .. that's why i can't do any illegal stuff that involves needles ..
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Sayhey said:
We could go round and round about this all season, but I just don't see any unfair singling out. Bonds hasn't been the focus of this business any more or any less than he deserves to be, and many other players have been the focus of the media's attention over the last year or so for the same reason. I honestly think you're getting too wrapped up with the Barry-as-victim thing.
IJ Reilly said:
Nah, IJ, just giving it the attention and perspective it needs and deserves.
And the idea that you and I could have a different take on baseball that we will never agree on is just preposterous. Hmmm.... Dodger fan, Giants fan .... hmmm?
IJ Reilly said:
I agree. I would have no problem with cracking down and criticizing others that are using steroids. If he had 400 career homers right now, it wouldn't be a huge scandal, but the fact is that he's closing in on Aaron's record. People care about that record. And the possibility that he'll pass it because he was juiced and the institution of baseball let it happen with a wink makes a lot of people angry.
Also, the other big suspects (McGwire, Sosa, Palmeiro) are no longer playing. While their stats are just as suspicious, their main point of debate now is their Hall of Fame chances. Bonds is still playing, and -- until he proves otherwise -- is the most dangerous hitter in the game. This would make him a target even if everyone thought he was clean.
This fixation on grand jury testimony is a lame distraction. It's a real violation, but it doesn't make the bigger issue go away. It's like saying that if it weren't for some careless burglars, Watergate wouldn't have been a scandal. Well, yeah, but White House corruption still would have happened and it still would have been bad. The principle here is worthwhile, but sealed testimony wouldn't have made Bonds more innocent. And it wouldn't have made steroids less of a problem for baseball. It just would have forced reporters to dig it up in some other way.
aloofman said:
aloofman, on the grand jury testimony first. Is the Bill of Rights a "lame distraction"? The whole point of this is there is a presumption of innocence in our system of laws, but when out-of-control prosecutors and media combine to conduct trials in the press instead of in the courts, it should be a cause for concern for everyone. The undisputed fact that laws have been broken in order to conduct this witchhunt should give you pause, not make you dismiss the concerns as "lame distractions." Also, last I heard, in both civil and criminal proceedings, "evidence" has to stand up to certain standards and to the cross examination of a defense lawyer. Here, we can do away with all of that and just accept what ever the prosecution wants to xerox over to the SF Chronicle as the gospel truth. Because this is being conducted in the manner of a witchhunt, doesn't mean Barry didn't use the drugs, but it sure as hell doesn't bolster the case for those who say he did. Unless hatred for Barry is necessary for a "fair" viewing of the evidence.
To Barry as a "target," is this furor because Barry is going to break a record or is it about the use of steroids? Sorry, I don't think the calls to single out Bonds, including those who would ban him from Baseball, show much concern for looking at drug abuse in sport. They are about a hatred of Bonds. If this was about steroid abuse it would be dealing with very different issues. If it was about records attained unfairly, we would be dealing with many different records over a very long period of time. It is about a media inspired frenzy to stop Bonds from breaking both Ruth and Aaron's record. Pardon me, if I don't accept that as legitimate. You see, I don't mind fans booing Barry one little bit. That's baseball. But the attempts to bar him from playing or to stop it at any cost goes way over the line of baseball partisanship.
I've a question for everyone in this thread. How are you going to feel if some fan does something stupid and hurts Barry. Would some here secretly cheer because he would be stopped from hitting more homeruns?
Sayhey said:Nah, IJ, just giving it the attention and perspective it needs and deserves.
And the idea that you and I could have a different take on baseball that we will never agree on is just preposterous. Hmmm.... Dodger fan, Giants fan .... hmmm?
As I've said, for me, it's not about where he plays...
IJ Reilly said:
So you regularly cheer for Giants players to do well? Can't say I do the same for Dodger players.
Sayhey said:
I think it's pretty clear that this issue is being played out in the court of public opinion, not a federal courtroom. Let's not be overly dramatic here. Confidentiality of grand jury testimony is a matter of federal law. It's not in the Constitution.
Sayhey said:
And I would maintain that much of the hatred of him has arisen since he started breaking home run records in a suspicious way. Back in 1993, when he signed the richest contract to date, he was just the latest of many arrogant athletes who cashed in on vast talent. I don't think he was more hated back then than Roger Clemens, for example. I never said I supported the people who said he should be banned or should have his records removed. There's no justified way to do either. I'm saying that the evidence is pretty strong that his run of great offensive seasons coincides with his use of performance-enhancing drugs and that leaves a bad taste in people's mouths. If the grand jury testimony doesn't get leaked, you're basically saying that no one would have much proof that he was probably using steroids. This doesn't seem like a strong defense of Bonds to me. It sounds more like "I wish this whole thing didn't fixate on a player who plays for MY team."
Sayhey said:
I would be very disturbed that a bad Wesley Snipes movie turned out to be prescient in any way.
aloofman said:
Not sure if anyone made this point since I'm too lazy to read all 6 pages, but steroids taken without a prescription are illegal. Period. End of story. Who cares if baseball was too stupid to ban them. It's against the law.
Sayhey said:Les, you really should see someone about those violent dreams.
It really isn't the conduct of other players that worries me. They tend to support Barry, and don't like the way he is being singled out unfairly. It's the mob mentality of some fans that is whipped up by a blood thirsty media that worries me. I think there are some idiots out there who might try to do something to Bonds because of all of this crap.
No, no NO! I'd need to see some evidence Barry is even liked by even 1% of his teammates. But it's not about the players, or even the fans. It's about baseball itself. Baseball purists "get it". Even since I was a kid the game has changed so much that it's hardly recognizable.
And the arm guard? Imagine if Bonds faced Drysdale or Gibson. He'd STILL be in a freakin' coma. And don't blame the media, blame Bonds and Sosa and McGuire and Boone and Giambi etc. But most of all, blame the spineless commissioner and the owners and the managers who turned their backs becasue when it comes right down to it, a championship is too big a prize to let a little thing like cheating to get in the way. As much as I respect LaRusa, HE let the good times roll.
But I rant.....
aloofman said:
To me, the use of a grand jury to force the focus of an investigation to testify, in order to set a perjury trap (unsuccessfully,) and the depriving him of the due process through trial in the press violates much of the letter and spirit of the above. Not that the violation of federal laws against release of grand jury testimony is a small or "lame distraction" either. Sorry, if I'm being overly dramatic, but I think this is a real issue. Regardless of what team Barry plays for.
aloofman said:
I've never denied my strong rooting interest in Barry's play. I'm not sure how that makes my points any less valid than those raised by people who have a strong rooting interest against his play. Just tell me where I'm wrong in the following:
1 - Barry has played during an era when the use of steroids has been alleged to have been rampant among many, many players. These include players who have won MVP awards, set records for things such as homeruns, saves, and teams that have won World Series titles based on the play of individuals who have been accused of steroid abuse. Where are the calls for the taking back of the 1989 Series trophy, Caminiti's, Giambi's, Gonzalez's, Canseco's, Rodriguez's, and Sosa's MVP awards, Gagne's streak and Cy Young award, and anything Mark McGwire has ever done? If these records, and many more, are not also part of the outrage, then how can one suggest Bonds is not being singled out? I know, and respect the fact, you don't a advocate the removal of any or all of these records, but the evidence of the single mindedness of the calls directed at Bonds would suggest he is being unfairly singled out. If you don't agree with me, take another look at the title of this thread.
2 - If people want to view the "evidence" laid out in the books about Barry and come to whatever conclusion they wish, I've no problem with that. I just have a problem with the idea of discipline being meted out through a procedure that has nothing to do with the agreed upon rules. If, and last I looked it was the case, Barry has not failed any drug tests, then to use the questionable one-sided release of the prosecution's failed case in lieu of a court trial or the rules of discipline in MLB, then we are not talking about anything to do with justice. We are talking about who ever can shout the loudest wins. It just so happens, among the people who hate Barry the most are people with the loudest megaphones. Why should I not complain about that state of affairs?
aloofman said:
I've always thought you showed remarkable taste in everything but baseball teams.
IJ Reilly said:
I do know what you mean. You mean that if anyone cheats they should be disciplined regardless of who they play for. We agree. My gentle jibe was only an attempt to remind that partisanship does play a role in much of this. I'm not really trying to accuse you of being anything but fair-minded. I'm only trying to point out that there are many, including some of those who have posted in this thread, who are not so fair-minded, and would want whatever method possible used to stop Barry from playing. That includes his banning from the sport. That also includes, seemingly, wishing for purposeful injury to accomplish their goal. As much as I've wished for many a Dodger or Yankee to pull a muscle over the years, I've never advocated a "Tonya Harding" approach to sports. Can everyone else here (Les, I'm talking to you) make the same claim?
I want all cheaters banned from the sport no matter who they are but Barry Bonds has become the poster child for steroid use. He is the biggest name and if he wasn't going for the record the steroid use would go mostly unnoticed. The fact that Barry had no remorse also leaves most people with a bad taste. Look, Barry isn't the only one but he has the most to gain out of all of them. I don't see Sheffield or Giambi going after Babe Ruth's record.
I think we've reached an impasse. I feel like we're both repeating ourselves again.
You know what's funny? I think Wesley Snipes seems like a good guy. You never hear about him assaulting a paparazzi or jilting some actress, doing drugs or claiming he's being disrespected. I don't think he's less talented than most actors in Hollywood. He just somehow only seems to make movies that I don't want to see. I'm almost rooting for Snipes to do something interesting. Maybe he could be a villain in a James Bond movie?
Sayhey said:I've always thought you showed remarkable taste in everything but baseball teams.
You know what's funny? I think Wesley Snipes seems like a good guy. You never hear about him assaulting a paparazzi or jilting some actress, doing drugs or claiming he's being disrespected. I don't think he's less talented than most actors in Hollywood. He just somehow only seems to make movies that I don't want to see. I'm almost rooting for Snipes to do something interesting. Maybe he could be a villain in a James Bond movie?
aloofman said:
I thought he was the guy who beat up Halle Berry? I saw it in a newspaper so it must be true.
Here is an interesting twist on the Bonds saga.
Yahoo News
Sayhey said:
I take it everyone was having a bit of fun about intentionally bopping Bonds. I think we all know that the umpires have basically taken away the bean-ball. Even the vague threat of one can be grounds for ejection these days. (Personally, I miss the chin music, but that's just me.)
Anyway, I was just trying to make it clear for my part at least that I'd feel the same way about Barry Bonds if he played for my team. No matter what happens, I'm pretty sure I'm not going to feel the least bit sorry for him, or any other ball player who thinks he'd not getting treated the way he deserves. Everybody should have it so bad.
CNN reported Thursday that the federal government is investigating whether Bonds committed perjury during his grand jury testimony in the Bay Area Laboratory Co-Operative case in 2003.
A person with knowledge of the probe confirmed the report to The Associated Press on Thursday night. The person spoke on condition of anonymity because of the secrecy of the investigation.
Multiple sources told CNN that a federal grand jury has been hearing evidence for more than a month about whether Bonds perjured himself during his Dec. 4, 2003, testimony. CNN reporter Ted Rowlands told ESPN Radio on Thursday night that it took a month for the network to get corroborating sources for the story.
The U.S. attorney's office in San Francisco would neither confirm nor deny that a grand jury is sitting.
espn.com
A person with knowledge of the probe confirmed the report to The Associated Press on Thursday night. The person spoke on condition of anonymity because of the secrecy of the investigation.
Multiple sources told CNN that a federal grand jury has been hearing evidence for more than a month about whether Bonds perjured himself during his Dec. 4, 2003, testimony. CNN reporter Ted Rowlands told ESPN Radio on Thursday night that it took a month for the network to get corroborating sources for the story.
The U.S. attorney's office in San Francisco would neither confirm nor deny that a grand jury is sitting.
espn.com
1. You should specify which Rodriguez, as there are a crapton of them in the MLB.Sayhey said:
B. I don't not about the others, but Mike Greenwell asked about getting "his" MVP trophy for finishing second in voting to Canseco.
Counterfit said:
Point taken, I was actually referring to Ivan Rodriguez (1999 AL MVP) who along with Juan Gonzalez and Rafael Palmeiro are players who have been named as steroid users by their former Texas Rangers teammate and the king of steroid users, Jose Canseco. Not that I think Jose's word is worth anything, but if we are going to use gossip and innuendo to convict people then let's be consistent.
MacAztec said:
In the first place, I care... very much.
All games and sports should be played on a level playing field. Using performance enhancing drugs, substances that can cause horrific side-effects, creates an unfair advantage over those that care about themselves and their families.
Whether the likes of Barry Bonds care or not and whether we care about what they do to themselves is neither here nor there.
Like it or not sports stars are role-models to our kids and, as much as parents will try to instill a moral stand on a subject such as this, the draw of the big bucks and the admiration of the fans is tough to overcome.
I don't want my kids dosing themselves with substances that cause face distortion, muscle injury, shrunken genitals, impotence, liver failure, whatever, all in the cause of sporting prowess.
Secondly no, steroids don't make you hit the ball better, they make you hit it further. Again that's unfair. Pitchers can't take steroids to speed up their fast ball, that muscle mass would just get in the way. There's your eneven playing field again. Tony Gwynn, arguably the greatest hitter of all time, had a career average in excess of .338. If he hit more than three home runs in a season it was a real surprise. Then, In 1999 he hit 19. Hmmm, we all said. Well, I have no idea, but he never achieved that again, and his health went haywire after that.
Thirdly, Barry Bonds is indeed one of the best baseball players ever, but he should not be allowed to keep any of the records he acheived. Likewise Mark McGuire. Ask Pete Rose.
Finally, D.W. Tripp and, ironically Richard Nixon, said: "It isn't about whether you win or lose, it's how you play the game. I've seen plenty of exciting soccer games that ended 0-0. lots of brilliantly pitched baseball games that ended 1-0 and even some great football games that had a scoreboard of 3-0.
The US attitude to sport is that it's all about the scoreboard. Then why watch the game? Why care about the players and the influence they have on society.
Well I care... very much.