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stebu said:
Secondly no, steroids don't make you hit the ball better, they make you hit it further. Again that's unfair. Pitchers can't take steroids to speed up their fast ball, that muscle mass would just get in the way.

In indirect ways, steroids do make you hit the ball better. By recovering from workouts and injuries faster, it's easier to maintain a consistently powerful swing. Pitchers can indeed take steroids, and there's much speculation swirling around now about pitchers that seem to have lost velocity last year.

stebu said:
There's your eneven playing field again. Tony Gwynn, arguably the greatest hitter of all time, had a career average in excess of .338. If he hit more than three home runs in a season it was a real surprise. Then, In 1999 he hit 19. Hmmm, we all said. Well, I have no idea, but he never achieved that again, and his health went haywire after that.

Tony Gwynn, while a fabulous player and a great hitter, is not even close to being the greatest hitter of all time. There are many hitters who put up similar averages AND had power while not playing in a steroid era.

stebu said:
The US attitude to sport is that it's all about the scoreboard. Then why watch the game? Why care about the players and the influence they have on society.
Well I care... very much.

That's painting with a pretty broad brush, don't you think? If the "US attitude" (whatever that means) were all about winning, would there be any Cubs fans? Would anyone show up to watch the Golden State Warriors? Would there be a meaningless figure skating exhibition on TV every weekend? If anything, Americans can be faulted for making sports about entertainment instead of fair competition.
 
What do Juan Rincon, Rafael Betancourt, Carlos Almanzar, and Felix Heredia have in common? They are all major league pitchers who have failed tests for steroids. I'm sure there are more examples than these four. The impact of steroid use in baseball is that they allow a player to heal much more quickly than without their use. For some that means they can exercise more and put on added muscle; for others that means they can perform their tasks more often and recover quicker from the stress of performing. They do not give anyone added muscle through just the use of a pill or a shot. For pitchers it helps them pitch more often. That can get pitcher on a major league roster and and makes it more likely for them to stay in the big leagues. If rumors are true, it also helped some great pitchers stay great for longer than is usual. In short, it helps pitchers tremendously to use steroids and there is little doubt that many have.

I have a tremendous problem with a system that pushes the use of drugs that have all the side effects that stebu lists, but I would ask what would be the problem if these drugs only had the intended effects? If all they did was allow players to heal faster, how could we be against their use anymore than being against any other new advance in training, nutrition, or treatment? At some point those drugs will be here and we will have to ask ourselves why we would deny their use to players in our attempt to keep a game "pure" when it never has been.
 
Sayhey said:
I have a tremendous problem with a system that pushes the use of drugs that have all the side effects that stebu lists, but I would ask what would be the problem if these drugs only had the intended effects? If all they did was allow players to heal faster, how could we be against their use anymore than being against any other new advance in training, nutrition, or treatment? At some point those drugs will be here and we will have to ask ourselves why we would deny their use to players in our attempt to keep a game "pure" when it never has been.
The problem is that its not natural, sport is not supposed to be about breaking records or pushing the human body beyond its breaking points, while that is what its become the whole idea of sport is to show sportsmanship and to stay healthy. By playing God with these drugs not only is the whole ideal of sport being changed but the function of the human body is changing. Do you want everyone to be super freaks that can hit a ball 2 miles far, what is the fun in sport then. If everyone was bashing the ball like Barry Bonds baseball would lose its appeal and the aspect of the game would be lost forever. There is a reason why the Olympics have a strict testing program so the sport is pure and its strictly on ones abilities and not trying to out run the competitor.
 
MacNut said:
By playing God with these drugs not only is the whole ideal of sport being changed but the function of the human body is changing.

Way to exaggerate. By your logic, organ transplants, gene therapy, and in-vitro fertilization are ruining us too. If the "ideal of sport" were really that lofty, all sports would have stopped living up to it a long time ago, if they ever did.
 
We learn to be better athletes just like we learn to be better in every other field of human endeavor. Nothing wrong with eating better, taking more vitamins, working out through the whole year, or taking better medicines that make you heal faster. If we are talking about drugs that do help you heal faster and don't have the adverse effects of today's steroids, then to forbid their use is to be a medicinal luddite. Shall we go back to medicine as it was practiced during the times of the original Olympic games in order for sport to be "pure"? I don't think so.
 
aloofman said:
Way to exaggerate. By your logic, organ transplants, gene therapy, and in-vitro fertilization are ruining us too. If the "ideal of sport" were really that lofty, all sports would have stopped living up to it a long time ago, if they ever did.
But will an organ transplant allow your body to be any better then it was before? The difference is that in-vitro fertilization helps people, how is a ability of a ball being hit 700 ft helping anybody?
 
Ok lets take it a step further, if I have a test in school and I can get the cheat sheet to help me ace the test is it wrong for me to use it and get a better advantage over someone else?

Why bother using humans to play sports then, lets create super cyborgs that have powers stronger then any human ever will and sign them to a baseball contract if thats what the fans want to see, Imagine the money George Steinbrenner can make then.
 
MacNut said:
Ok lets take it a step further, if I have a test in school and I can get the cheat sheet to help me ace the test is it wrong for me to use it and get a better advantage over someone else?

Why bother using humans to play sports then, lets create super cyborgs that have powers stronger then any human ever will and sign them to a baseball contract if thats what the fans want to see, Imagine the money George Steinbrenner can make then.

How does healing faster help you know what pitch is coming or what pitch the batter is looking for? Your analogy doesn't work. As to "cyborgs," I would repeat, the benefit of steroids are that they help you heal faster. They don't give you muscles you don't train to get. What they do allow is for the human body to maximize the weight training that will give you bigger muscles. Not muscles artificially implanted, but muscles that are closer to the potential each athlete has. I repeat, if it wasn't for the terrible side effects of these drugs, we should all be for their expanded use.
 
aloofman said:
In indirect ways, steroids do make you hit the ball better. By recovering from workouts and injuries faster, it's easier to maintain a consistently powerful swing. Pitchers can indeed take steroids, and there's much speculation swirling around now about pitchers that seem to have lost velocity last year.

Well, we are talking in genealisations here and I still think my overall point is valid. Plus you are actually restating my point about pitchers. What's your argument?



Tony Gwynn, while a fabulous player and a great hitter, is not even close to being the greatest hitter of all time. There are many hitters who put up similar averages AND had power while not playing in a steroid era.

Hence the term "arguably." Ted Williams always said the Gwynn was a better hitter than he.



That's painting with a pretty broad brush, don't you think? If the "US attitude" (whatever that means) were all about winning, would there be any Cubs fans? Would anyone show up to watch the Golden State Warriors? Would there be a meaningless figure skating exhibition on TV every weekend? If anything, Americans can be faulted for making sports about entertainment instead of fair competition.

We should all pray for Cubs fans. If you need an illustration of my points (and clearly you do) just listen to Jim Rome. Also a chat with fans around the world may illustrate the difference in attitude when watching sports..

Erm, I'm not quite sure how to work this quote thing, so forgive me if this looks wrong.
 
stebu said:
We should all pray for Cubs fans. If you need an illustration of my points (and clearly you do) just listen to Jim Rome. Also a chat with fans around the world may illustrate the difference in attitude when watching sports..

Erm, I'm not quite sure how to work this quote thing, so forgive me if this looks wrong.

First, there is a little icon above the box you type your reply in that looks like a square "thought balloon" and if you click on it you will get the word "quote" in brackets. Copy whatever you want between the two sets of brackets and you will get your text outlined for you.

Second, I hate Jim Rome. He represents everything that is wrong with sports journalism. He makes himself the center of attention, the center of the story, instead of the athlete. The worst example of his behavior was his baiting of Jim Everett by calling him "Chrissy" after he had been warned over and over again that it was offensive. I wish Jim had just decked the sucker. The unwarranted arrogance of the man is unbelievable. Somehow, we got to get back to the place where the athletes are the story and not the egos who write or talk about them.
 
Thank you for the tip Sayhey.

This is a little off the thread topic, but I have never understood the Jim Rome phenomenon. I think people just follow him for fear they won't be cool.
As a soccer fan I bristle at his ridiculing of the beautiful game, it's skills and history. It illustrates admirably the kind of ignorance I spoke of earlier.
I remember the Jim Everett incident well. I'm not a violent man, but it heartens me that Rome was scared s**tless by the attack.
A final word on the steroids issue, for those that don't see the light through their blinkers.
If you need convincing over the effects of steroids on the body I run a sports injury clinic once a month in Canterbury, Kent. Come see the 15 year-old boys with sclerotic livers, renal failure, dislocated limbs and so on. Not all through steroids obviously, but all in the name of a dream future, only now it's a nightmare.
And they all followed their heroes.
 
stebu said:
Well, we are talking in genealisations here and I still think my overall point is valid. Plus you are actually restating my point about pitchers. What's your argument?

Your statement was that pitchers can't take steroids because their increased muscle mass would get in the way of pitching. I was rebutting your point, not restating it.

stebu said:
Hence the term "arguably." Ted Williams always said the Gwynn was a better hitter than he.

"Arguably" I'm the greatest writer on Macrumors, but that doesn't make it true. I think Ted Williams is wrong about Gwynn being better and almost anyone who has followed the game or can read a stat sheet thinks so too. Gwynn was almost certainly a better fielder though.

I wouldn't give Jim Rome too much credit for this attitude. His audience is fairly large by AM radio standards, but he hasn't tainted sportsmanship like, say, Sportscenter has.

And I enjoy soccer and also snicker at people who don't get it. I started a thread on here about how ridiculous it was that the U.S. team was ranked fifth in the world.
 
I'm not quoting any more it takes too much room.
I re-read all of this trying to see what you say Aloofman and it still seems we are making the same point about pitchers.
And, but for the nitpicking, the point about Gwynn was actually about his '99 numbers, not about admittedly arbitrary opinions of his place in the hiearchy.
 
An interesting article by long-time Bay Area sportswriter Glenn Dickey.

...THERE’S ANOTHER reason I’ve been skeptical of the steroids uproar: I’ve been in team locker rooms.

When I covered the Raiders, 1967-71, the team’s trainers would set out large Tupperware bowls of pills, obviously so they could say if asked that they never directly gave anything to players. After practice, some players would grab off handfuls of these pills. I never knew what they were, but for sure they weren’t M and M’s.

As long as I’ve been around baseball, players have been taking amphetamines, colloquially known as “greenies”. Though not technically performance-enhancing, they were able to counteract the mental and physical fatigue of the long season. Now that they’re banned, many baseball people think that day games after night games will be played in relatively slow motion.

The point is, athletes are always looking for something that will give them an edge. Steroids are a logical extension of that.

Other writers, who have had similar experiences to mine, know that. They weren’t bothered by the power displays of the ‘90s, or the Mark McGwire-Sammy Sosa home run chase in 1998, when both McGwire and Sosa made a shambles of the Maris record. It was only when Barry Bonds started his record-breaking run that writers started zeroing in on this issue.

It’s pretty clear that the writers already hated Bonds and are using the steroids issue to hammer him. Bonds’ first major league manager, Jim Leyland, said yesterday that Bond was being singled out. “This is a hands-down, go-after-Barry Bonds thing,” said Leyland, who added, “I’m certainly not indicating I would defend him. But I get sick of hearing about it. They’re single-handedly going after Barry Bonds.”

The charge has been led by The Chronicle, which should not surprise those who know newspaper history. The Chronicle resembles the pre-2000 newspaper only in its name. When Hearst bought the paper, the editors from the old Examiner came over with a clear agenda to turn the paper into a replica of the Examiner. They’ve succeeded, which comes under the heading of “Be careful what you wish for.”

The Hearst papers have a long history of crusades, starting with William Randolph Hearst. The current editors thought the steroids coverage would win them a Pulitzer. It didn’t, perhaps because the Pulitzer jurors feel as I do, that a campaign that has leaked grand jury testimony as its centerpiece is not a good journalistic model.

But the hammering on Bonds continues. Like Leyland, I’m not defending Bonds, who is a loathsome individual, but it’s ridiculous to single him out in this way.

FANS AND writers alike want to think of sports as somehow being a pure endeavor, as they did in their childhood. Sorry, people, but it wasn’t true then and it isn’t true now.

Records are not sancrosanct. Conditions change, players change, rules change. Football recognizes this. Though records are celebrated, nobody pretends that today’s statistics can be compared to earlier eras. It is only in baseball where writers and fans alike think that it’s possible to compare statistics from different eras.

Forget the talk about a “level playing field.” In fact, baseball has always been manipulated, by pitchers using illegal pitches, by hitters putting substances into their bodies which they think will improve performance, by owners juicing the ball to get better offensive records.

Now, we’re seeing another artifically-induced surge in power numbers and, guess what, Bonds hasn’t hit a home run yet. So, could we please just shut up about steroids and enjoy the games?
 
Maybe there is a reason that he hasn't hit any homeruns this season....hmmm

Is it possible that he's off the juice?
 
If Bonds' slump continues, it may be a moot point. Right now he doesn't look like he could possibly reach 756 this season anyway. I wonder if it will reach the point where even the Giants would be better off if he retired short of the record.
 
aloofman said:
If Bonds' slump continues, it may be a moot point. Right now he doesn't look like he could possibly reach 756 this season anyway. I wonder if it will reach the point where even the Giants would be better off if he retired short of the record.

steroids or no steroids, he is 41 years old and will be 42 this summer...yes, he can easily pass babe ruth this season (he's now at 711) unless he gets a season ending injury, but it seems unlikely he will reach hank aaron

one more season would be what it takes and if that requires that he changes teams, then so be it

there are probably many players, who are under the radar, who use steroids and it's unfair that bonds is taking all the heat...if bonds were ordered to stop taking steroids, then everybody who takes them should also be tested and be forced to stop...then we will see what kind of game we are left with

one can't deny barry bonds' incredible talent for hitting home runs
 
He isn't gonna reach Hank Aaron and I wonder if he will finish this season, have you seen him run the bases, he can barely do it. It is sad that he will pass Babe Ruth but we should all be saved that he wont break Aaron's record. I want to see Bonds pass Ruth in NY that would make for some interesting fan reaction.:rolleyes:
 
Does anyone remember when Denny McLain threw gopher pitches to Mickey Mantle to give him one of the last home runs of his career? It's unimaginable that anyone would do the same for Barry Bonds. I wonder why. On second thought...

Here's a little Bonds story that I didn't see in the sports press, but I was at the game so I witnessed it with my own eyes. It was late innings in a close game against the Dodgers. Runner on third, first base open. One out. Bonds at the plate. Any respectable hitter is going to draw an intentional walk in this situation. On ball three (not even the fourth), Bonds rips off his arm protector and hurls it towards the Giants dugout, visibly ticked off at having the bat taken out of his hands, when he could not possibly have expected to swing it. It lands near the on-deck circle.

That's why Bonds will never get a gopher pitch, even in an old-timers game, 20 years from now.
 
IJ Reilly said:
Here's a little Bonds story that I didn't see in the sports press, but I was at the game so I witnessed it with my own eyes. It was late innings in a close game against the Dodgers. Runner on third, first base open. One out. Bonds at the plate. Any respectable hitter is going to draw an intentional walk in this situation. On ball three (not even the fourth), Bonds rips off his arm protector and hurls it towards the Giants dugout, visibly ticked off at having the bat taken out of his hands, when he could not possibly have expected to swing it. It lands near the on-deck circle.

That's why Bonds will never get a gopher pitch, even in an old-timers game, 20 years from now.

Damn, the guy is evil. Did he really show frustration with being walked all the time? The nerve of the man! Satan's own.

Come on, IJ! I think you protest too much. ;)
 
Sayhey said:
Damn, the guy is evil. Did he really show frustration with being walked all the time? The nerve of the man! Satan's own.

No, just a lack of class, is all. Nearly anyone but the pitcher is going to get walked in that situation, and expect it, but only Barry Bonds would throw a tantrum when it happened. I mean, what else is the game about, if not him?
 
IJ Reilly said:
No, just a lack of class, is all. Nearly anyone but the pitcher is going to get walked in that situation, and expect it, but only Barry Bonds would throw a tantrum when it happened. I mean, what else is the game about, if not him?

Your bias is showing, IJ. Not that mine doesn't show as well, but no one gets walked as much as Bonds. No one. He gets walked in situations that no one else ever gets walked in. Bases loaded. When it puts the winning or tying run in scoring position or on base. Times when Mays, Aaron, or Ruth would all have been pitched to. It happens because opposing managers have decided it is easier to just take the line "Barry is not going to beat me," so they don't have to explain when he does. Does he get frustrated with it? Yes, he has said so, and most of the time he accepts it. I've seen him look impatient, but most of the time he just takes the base. Your focus on seeing him throwing his arm protector gives a distorted picture to his response to a very frustrating situation. It's not like he threw it at the pitcher or the manager, he just expressed his feeling in a way you don't approve of. That hardly qualifies as making him a selfish player.

See, IJ, I've watched this guy for years, and if you say he's an arrogant SOB then I agree, but when you say he is a selfish player (as in "what else is the game about, if not him?") I don't. Barry is all about winning. He thinks he is the best at what he does and knows he can do a lot to contribute to winning, but his goal is about getting a ring. Now does that make him selfish? I don't think so. At least not in the sense he values his numbers over the team winning.

As to class, how about standing up for your teammates and showing respect for fellow players and to Giants fans? Barry does it all the time. Does he get any credit for it when he does? No, because, rightly or wrongly, he has always blown off the press. But then, they are hardly the arbiters of what constitutes "class" - even when they think they are.
 
IJ Reilly said:
No, just a lack of class, is all. Nearly anyone but the pitcher is going to get walked in that situation, and expect it, but only Barry Bonds would throw a tantrum when it happened. I mean, what else is the game about, if not him?

people get famous and become obnoxious arrogant prima donnas. i've seen it in sports just as often as anything else. this guy is no different. even people like michael jordan have acted completely "put out" for being fouled, even when deserved. with their fame seems to come a huge sense of entitlement and how dare anyone refute their perfection. know what i mean?
 
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