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Baseball Hall of Fame
- Thread starter mcmav37
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aloofman said:Is anyone else really surprised that Puckett has so many more triples and stolen bases than Mattingly? Who woulda thunk it?
The element of surprise...
Actually, KP was fairly quick for a man of his build if I remember correctly.
Can't be too slow and play center field.
Woof, Woof - Dawg
If nobody is voting for him because relievers are overrated, wouldn't that imply that ther aren't?
Sorta like the famous quote from another HOF'er, "Nobody goes there anymore. It's too crowded."
I'm happy with only those two going in. I feel like no more than one or two should be inducted in a given year.
And, on top of this, they're two of the finest players that have ever been in the game. I'm just waiting for Clemens . . . Of course, Lord knows when he'll retire. Maybe this year
What has Ripken done besides the streak. He really isn't that great a player, nowhere close to Gehrig.
I am never going to be happy until Mattingly gets in.
Top 5 votes:
Votes Pct.
Cal Ripken Jr. 537 98.5
Tony Gwynn 532 97.6
Rich Gossage 388 71.2
Jim Rice 346 63.5
Andre Dawson 309 56.7
I am never going to be happy until Mattingly gets in.
Top 5 votes:
Votes Pct.
Cal Ripken Jr. 537 98.5
Tony Gwynn 532 97.6
Rich Gossage 388 71.2
Jim Rice 346 63.5
Andre Dawson 309 56.7
Ripken is at or near the top of almost every category among shortstops, which is the most demanding defensive position. It's easy to say now that his numbers aren't that great because we live in the Jeter-Rodriguez-Nomar-Tejada era and we've come to expect power at the shortstop position. In the '80s and early '90s, he was the best all-around shortstop at his position. (Although Ozzie Smith was pretty damn close except for the power difference.) Ripken is one of those guys -- like Eddie Murray -- who was very, very good for a really long time without ever being a superstar. Ripken would be in the Hall even without the streak.
Gehrig's greatness has never been disputed. Except for the streaks, they really aren't comparable at all. Completely different eras, different teams, different positions.
Roger is another player who has the steroid cloud surrounding him. It isn't brought up as much by the media but he has been accused of using more that most anyone else. And look at the guy, he is a beast and he has been around for more than 20 years. I am sure he will get in (barring a positive test) but I don't think he will get 95+% of the vote.And, on top of this, they're two of the finest players that have ever been in the game. I'm just waiting for Clemens . . . Of course, Lord knows when he'll retire. Maybe this year
gwynn gets no attention
i seemed to notice that ripken gets most of the attention of the two, mostly because he was the first at his postion to prove power works over there, and of course, the public's fasination of the homer. gwynn in comparsion had only 135 homers, but he was the greatest hitter of this generation, and possibly in the top ten of greatest hitters, but he gets ignored due to the lack of power. a lifetime batting average of .338 isn't nothing to shake a stick at, and over 3000 hits is impressive. due to our homer fascination, i doubt we'll see much of this anytime soon.
and regarding the shortstop postion. i think arod-jeter-tejada are the exceptions to shortstops being high average and high speed and lower power guys. i'm worried that overall that we will put home run power above all other hitting attributes. trying to hit for homers all the time leads to lots of fly outs and strikeouts, good rally killers. i'm good for a single with two runners on scoring position, and besides, chicks dig the rbi single
i seemed to notice that ripken gets most of the attention of the two, mostly because he was the first at his postion to prove power works over there, and of course, the public's fasination of the homer. gwynn in comparsion had only 135 homers, but he was the greatest hitter of this generation, and possibly in the top ten of greatest hitters, but he gets ignored due to the lack of power. a lifetime batting average of .338 isn't nothing to shake a stick at, and over 3000 hits is impressive. due to our homer fascination, i doubt we'll see much of this anytime soon.
and regarding the shortstop postion. i think arod-jeter-tejada are the exceptions to shortstops being high average and high speed and lower power guys. i'm worried that overall that we will put home run power above all other hitting attributes. trying to hit for homers all the time leads to lots of fly outs and strikeouts, good rally killers. i'm good for a single with two runners on scoring position, and besides, chicks dig the rbi single
I think Ripken has just been more famous all along because of the streak and Gwynn played in the smaller media market of San Diego. Tony has gotten equal attention here though because the Padres are division rivals and we've seen him many times. Gwynn is also originally from Los Angeles, although he sometimes talks with kind of a southern drawl, which I've never had explained to me.
It's true that Gwynn got less attention because he hit fewer homers, but he's also a less valuable player because of it. Ted Williams had a similar BA and far fewer hits because he walked a lot, but he had over 500 homers and created a lot more runs for his team than Gwynn.
That power deficit is also the reason he isn't among the top ten all time hitters either. Not that Tony isn't a HOFer because he clearly is, one of the easiest Hall elections in my lifetime. Probably 20 players from before WWII were better all-around hitters than Gwynn, including Ruth, Wagner, Cobb, Hornsby, Speaker, Gehrig, Eddie Collins, Foxx, and Greenberg. Postwar, Mantle, Williams, DiMaggio, Aaron, Mays, Bonds, Schmidt, Frank Robinson, and McCovey, were all better than Gwynn, despite lower batting averages. These are just players I can think of off the top of my head. They're all in the HOF too, so Tony's in the right place.
I'm simply amazed that:
Ripken didn't get 100% (who the **** wouldn't vote for him?)
Jim Rice is still not in.
Ripken didn't get 100% (who the **** wouldn't vote for him?)
Jim Rice is still not in.
Rich "Goose" Gossage, who may be better known for his first tour with the Yankees (1978-83), was elected on Tuesday in his ninth year on the ballot. He'll join his former Padres manager, Dick Williams, on the stage behind the Clark Sports Center this coming summer.
Williams, who won the World Series twice as manager of the A's and will go in wearing an Oakland cap, teamed with Gossage in 1994, as the Padres won the first National League pennant in franchise history.
Jim Rice, the former star of 16 seasons, all with the Red Sox, barely missed by 16 votes as he fell 2.8 percent (72.2) below the necessary 75 percent to gain admission to the hallowed red-brick Hall on Main Street in Cooperstown. He'll undoubtedly go in next year, when Rickey Henderson will be an obvious first-time favorite. Rice then will be on the writers' ballot for his 15th and final year.
Gossage, who fell short by 21 votes in 2007, was this time named on 85.8 percent or 466 of the 543 ballots cast.
Andre Dawson, who hobbled on bad knees through many of his 21 seasons with the Expos, Cubs, Red Sox and Marlins, received almost a 10-percent uptick to 65.9 percent and may be right on the bubble in 2009. Voters from the Baseball Writers' Association of America also are taking another look at Bert Blyleven, a pitcher whose career ended after 22 seasons, just 13 victories shy of 300. Blyleven finished fourth behind Gossage, Rice and Dawson with a healthy 61.9 percent of the vote.
In the wake of last month's Mitchell Report, Mark McGwire, the first star player tainted by the steroids era to face the electorate, finished at 23.6 percent, almost exactly the same place as last year, when he also received 128 votes despite hitting 70 homers in 1998 to win his famous record home run race against Sammy Sosa and finishing with 583 in his career. In 2007, McGwire also received an underwhelming 23.5 percent.
Of the 11 first-timers on the ballot, only one -- Tim Raines -- received the requisite 5 percent to remain on the ballot. Raines earned 132 or 24.3 percent. Dave Concepcion, the shortstop on Cincinnati's great "Big Red Machine" teams of the 1970s, received 88 votes or 16.2 percent on his 15th and final chance among the writers.
Williams was one of five managers and executives elected last month by a separate, newly formed Veterans Committee.
World Series-winning managers Williams and Billy Southworth were elected along with Commissioner Bowie Kuhn and owners Walter O'Malley and Barney Dreyfuss.
All will also be inducted on July 27, although Williams is the only living member of the quintet.
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080108&content_id=2341502&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb
Williams, who won the World Series twice as manager of the A's and will go in wearing an Oakland cap, teamed with Gossage in 1994, as the Padres won the first National League pennant in franchise history.
Jim Rice, the former star of 16 seasons, all with the Red Sox, barely missed by 16 votes as he fell 2.8 percent (72.2) below the necessary 75 percent to gain admission to the hallowed red-brick Hall on Main Street in Cooperstown. He'll undoubtedly go in next year, when Rickey Henderson will be an obvious first-time favorite. Rice then will be on the writers' ballot for his 15th and final year.
Gossage, who fell short by 21 votes in 2007, was this time named on 85.8 percent or 466 of the 543 ballots cast.
Andre Dawson, who hobbled on bad knees through many of his 21 seasons with the Expos, Cubs, Red Sox and Marlins, received almost a 10-percent uptick to 65.9 percent and may be right on the bubble in 2009. Voters from the Baseball Writers' Association of America also are taking another look at Bert Blyleven, a pitcher whose career ended after 22 seasons, just 13 victories shy of 300. Blyleven finished fourth behind Gossage, Rice and Dawson with a healthy 61.9 percent of the vote.
In the wake of last month's Mitchell Report, Mark McGwire, the first star player tainted by the steroids era to face the electorate, finished at 23.6 percent, almost exactly the same place as last year, when he also received 128 votes despite hitting 70 homers in 1998 to win his famous record home run race against Sammy Sosa and finishing with 583 in his career. In 2007, McGwire also received an underwhelming 23.5 percent.
Of the 11 first-timers on the ballot, only one -- Tim Raines -- received the requisite 5 percent to remain on the ballot. Raines earned 132 or 24.3 percent. Dave Concepcion, the shortstop on Cincinnati's great "Big Red Machine" teams of the 1970s, received 88 votes or 16.2 percent on his 15th and final chance among the writers.
Williams was one of five managers and executives elected last month by a separate, newly formed Veterans Committee.
World Series-winning managers Williams and Billy Southworth were elected along with Commissioner Bowie Kuhn and owners Walter O'Malley and Barney Dreyfuss.
All will also be inducted on July 27, although Williams is the only living member of the quintet.
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080108&content_id=2341502&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb
This all shows what a weak class we had this year; worst in recent memory.
I still would have picked Rice over Gossage...
I still would have picked Rice over Gossage...
I still would like to see Mattingly get in. How does he not have more votes then McGwire.
Gossage is a good choice. I think we forget how much harder relief pitchers worked in his era. He'd pitch two or three innings routinely, but was still dominant.
I still would like to see Mattingly get in. How does he not have more votes then McGwire.
Agreed. Rice and Mattingly were the two most feared hitters of their era in the AL.
He was certainly an over-powering pitcher, but I just don't see anything on his resume that screams "Hall of Famer" to me.
Jim Rice comparisons aside, how can Gossage be voted in over Blyleven? I think it's a case of the market he played in winning over the voters.